Dragoon Punished at lvl 58 - What needs to be done with Wheeling Thrust

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Originally Posted by ErzaScarlet77

what? geirskogul is awesome!!
its like spammable howling fist. combine that with doomspike and dragonfire dive, DRG aoe is absolutely insane now

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its not spammable we need to use at least 2 full combo's per use or risk loseing the buff , doomspike costs 160 tp a shot and dragonfire dive has 120 recast time all in all our aoe is a best underwelming and at worst useing tp we could be killing one target at a time

Yeah, people see the burst AoE Dragoon does which is great for dungeons, but for any somewhat long fight that demands AoE, every TP user basically isn't allowed to do any serious AoE damage compared to casters, but that could be intentional as the tradeoff for higher single target damage, who knows. For that matter, I also think Dragonfire Dive is too weak for its cooldown. It should either be increased to 300 or have the cooldown reduced to 80 secs to match Blood for Blood. In general, the relationship of potencies between multiple weaponskills and abilities is feeling a little weird, but it makes sense overall.

Anyway, to expand on what I said earlier, that was just a band-aid fix for Wheeling Thrust. A long-term fix that I would like to see would look like this:

- Chaos Thrust and Full Thrust always combo into Fang and Claw while under Blood of the Dragon.
- Fang and Claw non-flank potency increased to 230.
- Fang and Claw has a 60% chance to combo into Wheeling Thrust.
- Wheeling Thrust potency increased to 500 regardless of position. Does not extend Blood of the Dragon.

Now yes, 500 potency looks overpowered, but keep in mind that it would only be executable 60% of the time and only after a long combo. Thus it would be more like a 300 potency attack, nearly identical to the 290 potency from the rear we have now. Little would actually change in DPS overall, but this would at least have the potential to feel awesome. That said, having a random combo skill could be extremely frustrating unlike Firestarter. I'm not sure.

Oh, and another addition to only the band-aid fix: Just make Chaos Thrust transform into Wheeling Thrust and Full Thrust transform into Fang and Claw when active, just like Ninjitsu does now. I know, I know. I can see the slippery slope arguments now: "Why not make every weaponskill transform into the next one in its combo sequence?" But I think these abilities are different because of their combined positionals and prerequisites.

Again, this isn't about making DRG overpowered but just about making the relationship between weaponskills feel fun and cool. If this would make DRG too powerful, then other Jobs' damage should be increased to match.

Btw, why are the tooltips all messed up? They must be artifacts from some beta version. In Blood of the Dragon's, it says, "effects end upon reuse," but there's nothing to reuse, and casting Blood of the Dragon again doesn't cancel any buffs. The buffs are called Sharper Fang and Claw & Enhanced Wheeling Thrust, and their tooltips say, "Able to execute an enhanced form of [skillname]." But these weaponskills can only be executed with that buff, so all of this makes no sense now. They really need to take another look at the new Dragoon abilities.

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Originally Posted by Syrus_Draco

Even without the Lv60 ability DRG has a lot of power as it is right now. The fact that you have an OFF GLOBAL attack that's 200 potency (that's 50 less than Dragon Fire Dive that which has 120 second cool down) has a small cool down, make it a very powerful move.

The fact that it subtracts 10 seconds off Blood of the Dragon helps regulate that power. If you could spam it after every 4th rotation that would be way too powerful, and way too easy. This forces you to keep track of how much time you have left and makes you question, "Can I spend this ability and still refresh Blood in time? Or should I wait for another rotation?"

Dragoons didn't have this complexity before unlike other dps, so now you have this element to test your skill.

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i think to be more exact he is comparing it to the other level 60 skills the other jobs get were it is very weak compared to most of them

Basically it means this. Say you have 3 seconds left on BotD on and you just used Chaos Thrust, granting you 10 seconds of "Enhanced Wheeling Thrust" (meaning Wheeling Thrust is available), but the target is running away. Since you have 3s left on BotD but 9 seconds or so to still land your WT, you pop a fresh BoTD , thinking it'll give you +15 seconds, allowing you plenty of time to hit your Wheeling Thrust proc. Unfortunately, "effect ends upon reuse", so using BotD removes your "Enhanced Wheeling Thrust" thereby cancelling your proc regardless of duration. Reuse definitely cancels those buffs, I've tried it before when my timer was about to run out.

Oh. I had never done that. That seems really weird, and I don't think it should be like that, but thank you for explaining that part. And now that I think more about it, Geirskogul's potency and cooldown is probably fine, but I still think its duration reduction should be -6s.

When these abilities were announced, I thought that one would proc from Full Thrust and one would proc from Chaos Thrust. The randomness was a surprise, but I'm not overly bothered by it now that I'm used to it.

Something else I've noticed though (but perhaps I'm just seeing things or messing up my abilities) is that if you pop BotD and then extremely quickly do a Chaos Thrust, the 4ths won't proc at all. Incredibly annoying when it happens, but I've only been caught with it three-four times.

That's what I thought, but that would still make one or the other completely useless unfortunately, but it would still be better than what we have.

The 100 non-positional potency is the worst offender right now. It's completely inexcusable for a positional bonus to be 190 Potency given how the game engine works. We actually lose more overall DPS from using it and "missing" than if we just don't use it. That is very, very wrong. Every other positional ability in the game has some effect that makes it an overall net gain and therefore worth using regardless of position bonus.

At the very least, both Fang and Claw and Wheeling Thrust's base potencies must be increased to 220-230 even if they don't change anything else.

Edit: Bards got a response about their perceived complaints: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post3090840 So I have confidence yet that they are paying attention to Dragoon.

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Originally Posted by Teiren

It's completely inexcusable for a positional bonus to be 190 Potency given how the game engine works. We actually lose more overall DPS from using it and "missing" than if we just don't use it. That is very, very wrong.

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Not strictly true, as they allow us to keep up BotD which not only boosts Jump and Spineshatter Dive to 260 and 221 potency respectively but also affords us three Geirskoguls per minute which is another 200 potency move which we couldn't access consistently if we "just don't use it".

It's odd that they have two skills to do basically the same thing for the sake of complexity but positional bonuses should be important if you ask me. It might actually make more people interested in them, as many players seem to completely ignore the positionals on HT and CT.

Been playing around with f n c and wt - its not difficult *at all*.

But I agree its weird that they do the same thing - at least have diff debuffs or smth

I put both Fang & Claw and Wheeling Thrust in a macro that casts both of them and only have the skill icons enlarged on a separate bar so I have an indicator of which one is up.
The fact that you can put both skills in the same macro button alone already shows that the skill design of those two skills is weird.

Im not having problems using them, it's just weird that you can almost completely remove the (input-)randomness with the use of a macro.