[dev 1032] What's wrong with job/subjob again?

What's wrong with job/subjob?

Quite easy. For one, it's excessively limiting and the number of viable combinations is not that high. An inevitable consequence of that is that cookie-cutter be all end all combinations tend to be the only ones accepted (with reason), making the freedom of choice between job/subjob a completely illusory one, and as such moot.

On the other hand the FFXIV armory system offers a much higher amount of combinations, and while a certain amount of cookie-cuttering will always exist, the viable combinations are much more, making freedom of choice and personalization much more relevant.

It's quite simple, really.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

What's wrong with job/subjob?

Quite easy. For one, it's excessively limiting and the number of viable combinations is not that high. An inevitable consequence of that is that cookie-cutter be all end all combinations tend to be the only ones accepted (with reason), making the freedom of choice between job/subjob a completely illusory one, and as such moot.

On the other hand the FFXIV armory system offers a much higher amount of combinations, and while a certain amount of cookie-cuttering will always exist, the viable combinations are much more, making freedom of choice and personalization much more relevant.

It's quite simple, really.

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Personalization of what? It just led to the same result, only worse. We don't even have distinction of classes anymore, we just have distinction of skill combinations.

You're a defensive ugly chimera, an ugly DD chimera, or a healing ugly chimera.

and true to chimera nature, the cheapest and most dominating strains come out to hide its weaknesses.

That's true freedom for you, a beast of min/maxing.

Holy Jesus. Enough with these excuses of cookie-cutter bull****. In the end this system will fall along the same lines and it will turn into less "viable combinations" as FFXI.

Abriael let's go ahead and do something right now. Let's do some number crunching. Let's say that there were three different job/subjob combinations for every class.....This isn't true, since almost every job had well over that many viable combinations. There are twenty(20) jobs currently available in FFXI. Simple math results in 60 possible optimal builds, or "Cookie-Cutter" combinations that you could come up with. Don't know about you, but that hardly seems very limiting. You act as if every job had to sub ninja or else be scorned.

P.S. Not to mention that your character had different sets of gear for different strategies. Different merits into different jobs. And also overall different players to play their own character. For Samurai I had two sets of gear; TP and WS. For Black Mage I had three; Elemental, Enfeebling, Dark Magic. Again. That's a lot of viable combinations for your so called "Cookie-cutter" jargon.

Hey, I'm just glad they're not going to implement job/subjob. As I've stated many times, I know the dev team is better than that. They will create something better suited to FFXIV.

What that is I have no idea but hey, it can't be worse than what we've already got or job/subjob can it? :p

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Originally Posted by Kimahri

Holy Jesus. Enough with these excuses of cookie-cutter bull****. In the end this system will fall along the same lines and it will turn into less "viable combinations" as FFXI.

Abriael let's go ahead and do something right now. Let's do some number crunching. Let's say that there were three different job/subjob combinations for every class.....This isn't true, since almost every job had well over that many viable combinations. There are twenty(20) jobs currently available in FFXI. Simple math results in 60 possible optimal builds, or "Cookie-Cutter" combinations that you could come up with. Don't know about you, but that hardly seems very limiting. You act as if every job had to sub ninja or else be scorned.

P.S. Not to mention that your character had different sets of gear for different strategies. Different merits into different jobs. And also overall different players to play their own character. For Samurai I had two sets of gear; TP and WS. For Black Mage I had three; Elemental, Enfeebling, Dark Magic. Again. That's a lot of viable combinations for your so called "Cookie-cutter" jargon.

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and using your numbers there are many more builds with the system in place now due to not being limited to 2 classes at a time even with less classes.

Why are people so focused on this 'freedom'? It sucks, and accounts for more people soloing in this game. And half the skills you do mix up, give the same effect and damage that your current class skills do. The only skills people mix up are protect, shell, cure, sacrafice, ferocity, and well.. thats about it. Not so much freedom when people choose the SAME thing. It'd seem more useful to have subjobs that people can have a like and still have some use in those skills

To much freedom is what has killed this game as everything has to be balanced to keep everything equal so that just makes everything the same. With job/sub job you could make classes more special as you could only select skills from 1 other class that is half your current rank. That kept everything in check.

With the system we have now could you imagine if skills and abilities were effective????? Think if they took the skills and abilities from FFXI and made them effective like they were in that. OMG you could hit cap with every class and just destroy everything. But they new that so that is why they put in the restrictions, FFXIV has very few restrictions so they have had to make everything level as to not give anything an advantage and that just makes it boring.

inability to handle freedom for some people is part of the reason this game is dying. don't blame freedom for the inability to handle it. even with a job/sub job system this game is still very much broken and to blame this as the reason the game is in bad shape is quite nearsighted.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

and using your numbers there are many more builds with the system in place now due to not being limited to 2 classes at a time even with less classes.

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You're completely disregarding something. Being able to select any abilities currently from any class is what is making this class system less unique and being even more limited than FFXI. In the end it'll turn into you leveling a class for a certain ability. You can say what you think about how I presume too much, but remember I've been in FFXI since the day it started. I think I know what I'm talking about. Also when you all said that if I didn't have the right subjob that you would be shunned by the community? Think down the future. "Haha! What a noob! He doesn't have [Insert Skill] on his [Insert Class] yet! Let's kick him."

Please don't tell me how to restrict myself so you can enjoy a system by only yourself. I'd like to think of others since this is a MMO. If I didn't want to play with others, I'd go buy a single-player game.

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inability to handle freedom for some people is part of the reason this game is dying. don't blame freedom for the inability to handle it. even with a job/sub job system this game is still very much broken and to blame this as the reason the game is in bad shape is quite nearsighted.

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No. Inability is not the reason we're leaving the game. We're leaving the game because this current class system is boring and repetative. There is no motivation behind leveling a certain class other than to obtain additional skills to use for other classes. I want to level Marauder because it is a Marauder. Not because I can use it's abilities on Gladiator and be 'Supreme' over only just a Marauder. This system is not engaging for me, and it's the same for a damn good number of others as well. Just to state a fact, but 85.1% of everyone around the world said that they would be in favor of SE drastically changing the very foundational laws that govern Eorzea.

Nobody is here to wreck a game, but with the way you guys complain you do nothing to further other people's desires. It's just like Auto-Attack. The one's opposed against it think it'll be less engaging when there really isn't any legitimate reason behind that. People were engaged during XI's auto-attack phase. A very big reasoning behind implementing this is that it gives us time to chat to others, look up information on the fly, change over to YouTube so we can listen to some music, etc, etc. It's why they eliminated TBA in the old FF RPG because all it was would be button mashing once you engaged in combat.

Edit: Sorry. I just logged onto IGN.com and seen this at a glance and let me tell you. This review of Dynasty Warriors 7 reflects a lot of how I feel about FFXIV.

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"Dynasty Warriors 7 is one of those games that really only appeals to a certain niche of gamers. Dynasty Warriors fans are going to find a whole lot to like with Dynasty Warriors 7, including an expansive set of options that will keep players busy for a very long time. But for everybody else, playing Dynasty Warriors 7 will be a chore. The gameplay is repetitive and boring, the aesthetics are bland, and the story -- while interesting and chock-full of characters -- can be hard to follow and bogged-down by melodramatic delivery.

In other words, those who are already into the Dynasty Warriors franchise will love Dynasty Warriors 7. Everybody else should stay away."

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

inability to handle freedom for some people is part of the reason this game is dying. don't blame freedom for the inability to handle it. even with a job/sub job system this game is still very much broken and to blame this as the reason the game is in bad shape is quite nearsighted.

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The current system is not the only reason the game is in bad shape but it is one of the reasons. For example say I levelled every class to R50 but 1. So I start levelling that class do you really think being able to pick R50 abilities from every other class I have levelled for a R1 class is balance. No it isn't, the system needs balance and a lot of it, one of the main reasons that most skills and abilities are all meh is because if they were actually any good everyone would level to get them and make a super class that pwns everything.

So the system needs balance, Job/Sub Job was a form of balance which still allowed classes to be different and effective. If SE can make the current system work, keep balance and make classes different and effective then great I'm all for it. However I am not happy with the current system because of how it ruins classes from being different and effective it just makes them all meh with nothing special about them.