SMN mp needs sorting out

I know this is uncreative, but it could be neat to change SMN to be similar to BLM, though it'd be a pretty big revamp to SMN... And you'd probably have to give them a new Swiftcast-like ability that only works on summoning Egis... but what if SMNs had to cycle through different Egis to get different effects, like one of them gives MP, one of them is for dots and the other is for nuking or something? Like I said it would be a big revamp that would require changes to MP cost and cast times of summoning, but I think having to use multiple Egis in a fight makes it feel more like a Summoner while addressing some of the issues SMNs are having. (The above ideas were off the top of my head and not thought out at all, I leave that part to you all :P )

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

I disagree. Why should BRD be required in all progression groups?

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It already is? If you don't need a bard for the melee than you aren't going to be running out of mana as a summoner, either. So this thread doesn't apply to those fights.

I'd ideally like to see actual support classes. That is a completely separate issue, though.

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Originally Posted by Ryans

It already is? If you don't need a bard for the melee than you aren't going to be running out of mana as a summoner, either. So this thread doesn't apply to those fights.

I'd ideally like to see actual support classes. That is a completely separate issue, though.

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That's what I'm saying. >_>

Optimal right now is PLD/WAR/WHM/SCH/MNK/NIN/BRD/BLM, at least on fights requiring two tanks. Someone pushing progression please correct me if I'm wrong on that.

Now, PLD/WAR could be WAR/WAR or PLD/PLD without affecting too much. WHM/WHM is viable, SCH/SCH is less so but still probably works (Galvanize not stacking is still an issue). But you won't see any progression groups running without a BRD. In 2.0 and 2.1 BRD was the safety net of the group, only needed if something went wrong. In T8 and onward, though, it started becoming a required class in order to beat enrage timers. I'm asking for a return to how it was in 2.0. Whether that means shorter fights or more self-sufficiency for the other classes is up to the devs, but I don't see any reason that a BRD should be required in every single raid instance.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

That's what I'm saying. >_>

Optimal right now is PLD/WAR/WHM/SCH/MNK/NIN/BRD/BLM, at least on fights requiring two tanks. Someone pushing progression please correct me if I'm wrong on that.

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Not pushing FCOB, but MNK/MNK is the melee DPS comp I've heard used by most world firsters, but otherwise I believe that's how it goes. Things are pretty flexible now that i120 is prevalent, though.

Except you always need a BRD. Literally. It's the only 'mandatory' job in the game right now for coil content, because there's no other viable method of TP restore post NIN nerf.

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Originally Posted by RazeLandale

I think if 1/3 aetherflows had to be used on energy drain for long fights that'd be fine, although you have to balance damage output around that. Which doesn't sound like it is, but if it were it'd be fine to have that resource management element there.

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This is pretty much that right now. If you need use more than 10 energy drains in 10min fight, you are doing something wrong. Turn 12 and 13 also take longer, but those turns have phases with little downtime that generate your mana.

And that is the thing what I have been requesting all of the time, but ppl wanna remove mechanic that already work very well.

Since I posted this in another thread, I'll post it here for more visibility:

To throw in my suggestion for how to at least fix the MP problem (since adjusting DPS is more than just "add 10 potency to all dots") would be something like a small refresh effect for using either Bane or Fester (make it one or the other). If you were to put it on Bane, have it scale up depending on how many targets you spread dots to. My thinking is that the times you're going to be using Bane the most are going to be your times of heavy MP useage, like T10 adds (RIP MP).

If you were to put it onto fester, make it a long-duration refresh, right at 20s (1/3 of an aetherflow CD, the effective CD of Fester). Give it the same MP gain as ED. So now you get to choose: do I sacrifice bursting harder to kill my target faster (killing fast adds) or do I hold back and recover more MP? The long duration of the refresh allows ED to still be useful for what its really meant for: quickly regaining MP. With ED you can still recover more than 600 mp in 9 seconds, compared to the full minute you would need from festers. ED would be a better choice at very low amounts of MP.

If you think that 266 MP is not a lot of MP to regain, you must be playing a different game. Its actually probably too much MP recovery but if the devs were to implement something like this then they would obviously fine-tune the numbers for what they want to accomplish. If you don't believe me: at 3000 MP using aetherflow gives you 600 MP back. You would gain more MP back from this refresh effect (if you spaced out your Festers) than you would from aetherflow by 66%.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

That's what I'm saying. >_>

Optimal right now is PLD/WAR/WHM/SCH/MNK/NIN/BRD/BLM, at least on fights requiring two tanks. Someone pushing progression please correct me if I'm wrong on that.

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I guess my point was that a support class should be required for all content. Bard is the only one that fits the bill at the moment. The fact that it is required means it should be doing support type things. Which it does. For melee, tanks and healers. They should be helping manage caster resources, as well. The problem is they designed two caster classes. One is just like every other class and runs out of its resource eventually. The other is an outlier that requires no outside maintenance. That is the problem people here aren't getting.

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Originally Posted by KitanaiKoneko

Since I posted this in another thread, I'll post it here for more visibility:

To throw in my suggestion for how to at least fix the MP problem (since adjusting DPS is more than just "add 10 potency to all dots") would be something like a small refresh effect for using either Bane or Fester (make it one or the other). If you were to put it on Bane, have it scale up depending on how many targets you spread dots to. My thinking is that the times you're going to be using Bane the most are going to be your times of heavy MP useage, like T10 adds (RIP MP).

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Again, Bane would affect SCH as well so this would not happen.

I have basically given up on SMN getting a band-aid before the next patch cycle. However, if there were to be a new trait I would add to Arcanist that would benefit SMN dps it would be something like:

Aether Tap (ACN trait)
10% chance when pet deals critical damage or critical heals, will increase damage dealt by you and pet by 10% for 15 seconds. While active, 10% of damage dealt will be absorbed as MP.

The values could be tweaked for balance, but the key here is that only damage dealt is increased, while the absorb effect works similar to Bloodbath except with mp. A SCH that is focusing on healing won't be nearly as capable of maximizing the effect as a SMN could. Even if they did SCH would only restore a max of ~300 mp minus casting costs based on the current values during the Aether Tap uptime, while the SMN has Garuda racking up ticks along with 1k fester nukes to take full advantage of the effects.

Could it happen? Probably not. But I have hope that Heavensward has a hidden agenda regarding SMN buffs, and every post comes closer to bringing this to SE's attention.

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Originally Posted by Darsho

I have basically given up on SMN getting a band-aid before the next patch cycle. However, if there were to be a new trait I would add to Arcanist that would benefit SMN dps it would be something like:

Aether Tap (ACN trait)
10% chance when pet deals critical damage or critical heals, will increase damage dealt by you and pet by 10% for 15 seconds. While active, 10% of damage dealt will be absorbed as MP.

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That sounds like a good idea still my smn is getting dusty by now. We just cleared T10 yesterday (yes we are behind) without me using smn. At least I'm dpsing all the way thru the raid.... Sad that I had to dump smn for another class due to this mp business.