FFXIV - A Step to P2W (My 2.45 Feedback)

I'm perfectly fine with the mogstation offering optional items and services. people seem to think that this is the first time a p2p mmo has had a shop that has sold optional non game breaking items.

The maintenance seems to not have addressed the issue that was discussed here. So after careful consideration on their actions, I had made a big post and decided to bring it to this topic as it is relevant. Apologies if this offends anyone.

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

I have posted about this in other topics. According to the latest official statement on the matter, we can conclude that this whole ordeal was caused by the players (and to some extent the developers).

However, this issue sparked an outrage because people were making gil off the Bracelets. They started comparing this to RMT-activity and also a pay-to-win method. From the respose we got, this wasn't intentional on the developer's part. A lot of the backlash had nowhere to go because people were denying that it was the players themselves who chose to sell them for gil, and also the ones who decided to buy them with the gil.

[Sarcasm]Since we all know the player's are always right and can do no wrong[/Sarcasm], the Cash Shop and SE were made the prime targets of the issue and players just attacked them for it. No, the player's aren't the only reason; The developers had some part in it due to human error and an oversight on their part. Though, everyone overlooks the former because they rather not blame themselves.

There was some confusion made on the opposing side as their arguments were based on having the economy destroyed because of Gil entering the economy. However, this was immediately dismissed because it was shown that some amounts of Gil was actually going out of he economy and entered the void through housing and market taxes.

So now we were left with only the pay-to-win argument. We've established that the issue was in no harm to the economies as Gil was actually going out of the economy which is good in order to slow down the inflation, and that the pay-to-win factor was actually player-created. So what does this mean? It means that this whole issue was caused by people taking offense and taking it to a personal level.

There were topics describing how they would very much prefer to have this become a major Gil sink when we had very little information about the system and argued that access to the content should be free to everyone even to those who don't have the budget to spend extra. What happened is that even though people do have access to it through other means, such as getting a friend to buy it for him and paying him back through Gil, possibly the players who don't have the Gil nor can they afford to get it directly are taking offense to it. I don't support nor do I care about people selling it for Gil, as that is something us players have to try to fix ourselves to strengthen our community bonds.

The way how Gil is being thrown out of the economy, I do think it is healthy for the economy. We do not have many Gil sinks to balance it out. We only have teleport costs, housing prices and market board taxes in-game right now. And with the way it is now, people are able to avoid a lot of these gil sinks already which doesn't help that the amount of gil going into the economy is too great. The rapid purchasing of houses removes a crap ton of gil to boot so inflation does not become an issue for now.

The argument for the pay-to-win is as simple to rectify as RMT-activity; Don't become a buyer. Yet, here we are because there are buyers that are willing to part with tons of thousands of Gil to get what they want. This is what players are upset about and have taken offense to it; players gaining gil from these buyers rapidly. This is what I'm trying to point out. I don't condone the act of selling cash shop goods, but I can accept the fact that this can potentially solve inflation within our economy, and should anyone else take this as an offense, please don't.

What people do with their gil is entirely up to them. You shouldn't be offended by another player's spending habits in the first place. They are only getting these items at a much faster pace. They do not gain an advantage over you on crafted gear other than time. You can practically obtain all the materials youself for free by farming content and then getting a friend you know personally to craft it for you.

In short, I'd rather SE look into this issue more carefully before deciding anything. I don't want this to turn into a, "the players are always right and everything we say has to be done", kind of game. Sometimes, opinions get the best of us, and a lot of the time, they are good suggestions. However, we as players do have to understand that if the developers did everyone we asked them to, we would end up with nothing more than a broken game.

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With that out of the way, let me discuss the pay-to-win aspect with you. Players have argued that the players taking advantage to this is causing a pay-to-win environment. So I did a little research and dug a little into the matter. So I would like to share my findings, my experiences, and my opinions. Most of which are already explained in the quote above, so I'll try to keep this brief.

I looked into the matter by turning my thinking around and looked at the situation from a different angle. What I discovered is something that throws away the pay-to-win argument out the window in no time flat. What was argued was that these players who obtained gil by selling the Bracelets are gaining signifigant advantages by buying gear from the market and gearing up to the teeth with the best gear Gil can buy. Allow me to point out one flaw to this argument; time.

Given some thought, you will realise that the advantage they gained is just the time it took to get what they wanted. That is the only advantage. I've looked into the recipes of those crafted gear and materia and discovered that you can obtain every single material for free. The only downside the the fact that it takes time to gather up these materials. This can also be said for buying clears. Given the time, I think everyone has the capability to defeat every fight without having to pay a single Gil. The people selling these clears are cashing out on player's impatience. So what does this mean for us? We're all very impatient.

That is exactly my point. Pay to win is about paying rl money for an ingame advantage. In this case, the advantage is time.

It can take weeks for someone to earn 20m by crafting/gathering/desynthing. Or he can just earn the 20m overnight by selling wedding bracelets. If that is the case, then what is the point to crafting, desynthing grinding for supras/master book when you can just spend $20+ for gil?

As stated before, easy solution: Make it so that any character can only obtain 2 bracelets, EVER.

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Originally Posted by TurnBased

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No, you're misunderstanding the point that I'm trying to make. It isn't about earning the gil, it's about working towards your goal. What advantage they have is time, yes, but you can also get what they have given the time. Look, the way you're explaining the situation makes it seem like players can't take the time to do it themselves. This is evident because people actually bought the Bracelets with Gil. What we're missing from the equation is patience. The pay-to-win argument is under the assumption that time is the main advantage. However, the point I'm trying to make is to dismiss that argument by introducing the fact that if given time, the player can achieve the same goals.

If it takes you two weeks to get something someone else can get in a few minutes, what difference does it make? You both have the same things, but the main difference is the time you took to get it. Someone decided to choose a faster way, and the other took their time to go by the most cost-effective way. My stance is still the same on the matter. I do not support people selling the Bracelets for Gil, but at the same time, I do not support those who are against getting the same results at a slower pace.

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Originally Posted by TurnBased

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Weeks? hold on here... I'm on Jenova, the smallest server with the smallest amount of gil in circulation. I made 10 mil in the past 6 days, just desynthing brass crafting rings for fieldcraft 1's, then selling them on the market board. in my spare time I did my gathering of unspoiled nodes, but still.

and why craft, desynth, and grind for 20 mil instead of buying it for $20? for one, I don't have that kind of money readily available to spend, and two, 20 mil barely gets a quarter of what is required for crafting endgame (artisan HQ pieces are currently selling for 9-10 mil per piece), and unless someone has the real world money to keep buying wedding bracelets (making SE a fortune in the meantime) 20 mil isn't going to get him far.

I wont even count battle class gear, since pentamelded i110 on someone without the skill to get it on their own in the first place wont even be able to clear Tam Tara HM, let alone any extremes or turns.

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Originally Posted by Evenstar

As stated before, easy solution: Make it so that any character can only obtain 2 bracelets, EVER.

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I think this is even too simple. I've so far bought four myself - I gave two to another couple in my Guild as a xmas present.

I personally never thought on selling them but can see as to why players may have jumped to this chance of gaining a lot of gil in one easy go. People buying them though - how can you afford two of these? They sell for like 10 million each most times on my server @_@

I donno to me it feels a little cheaty to get an item out the cash-shop then sell it and become rich - but people play games in different ways I suppose :P

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Originally Posted by Evenstar

As stated before, easy solution: Make it so that any character can only obtain 2 bracelets, EVER.

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create a new character

buy 2 bracelets

sell them

repeat.


I abused your solution in about 30 secs of thinking :/

Make them untradable, possible to have 2, and the couple has to have 2. Won't solve the "selling EB's mount and dresses" part but I don't think you can do anything to stop a db being a db...

There is actually a solution which is even a steam has, why not make it gift option in the mogstasion. By selecting gift, you need to put character name and choose their world (you need to do this immediately). After that, the item will be sent to specified player using mogmail (as the trade in-game is based on trust, make the mail is delayed between 6 - 12 hours). The item is bound from the beginning. I think this will solve all of any problem regarding this. What about the item which gained by player before ? Give them 3 days, after that the item will be automatically bound to that player.

Now what about account wide item ? Account wide item must be bought by the owner of the account and cannot be gifted. Anything related to account cannot be gifted (appearance change, name change, etc).

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

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Pay to Win is getting an in-game advantage by paying real world money. You acknowledged that players who bought and sold the bracelets have the advantage of time. Hence, my point, Pay to Win.

And I am not against obtaining them the slow way. If I were then I would have started selling the bracelets myself.

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Originally Posted by tocsin

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20m was just an example. The amount of time to make that will depend on server economies. Besides, it took you 6 days to make 10m. It would have taken someone only a few hours to make the same amount with the bracelets.

And another thing. For you to have been able to craft, gather and desynth, you had to level your classes, which you invested both time and money in. People who sell bracelets only need to spend $20+ and make money much much faster.

It doesn't matter how harsh the effect is. There is now a P2W aspect to the game. This would be fine if FFXIV were F2P but it's not.