Tanking habits

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Originally Posted by Seoki

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/RCLReWij1hs/hqdefault.jpg

In all seriousness, I understand the frustrations completely for those who have to deal with this in roulette.

As a PLD main, I tend to gauge the party first (What jobs do we have, how much dps are they putting out, can our healer really keep me up?)
If I think that the party can do it then I do a mass pull, if I was wrong I apologize and start pulling in smaller groups.
Seems that many tanks besides myself don't do this anymore sadly.

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Most player are i1oo so just do it and pray to rngesus I mean it work 95% of the time why care the Ilevel in this game is broken in the expert routte they not that strong so just Zerg it

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Originally Posted by Mercuito

(with 2 ninja dps no blm I have to add)

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I found the problem.

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Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio

SE has made expert dungeons so boring now because there's artificial blocks that prevent the mass pulling. Half the people just use it for tome farming...don't force me to stay there beyond the actual time that my gear has allowed me to stay.
It was a good day when our tank decided that we were gonna pull everything on that last great pull before final boss with Sastasha. Madness on healer and hilarious amounts of fun on blm. It's disappointing when in a normal expert roulette and every pull is separate and just...augh.

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I, for one, am more than happy that SE is finally putting a stop to people who think they're Superman with these new dungeons. If Poetics weren't capped, I'd be happy to do those dungeons 7 days a week [Ironworks stuff is pretty damn good, too].

I am glad there are mechanics to these dungeons that don't encourage or outright prevents these daredevils from putting other party members in needless danger. As a Tank, that means I can concentrate on locking in hate on small groups, as a DPS I can focus on killing each enemy without worrying that one will get loose and come after me, and as a Healer I can do my job without panicking every 5 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

I, for one, am more than happy that SE is finally putting stop to people who think they're Superman with these new dungeons.

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I'm not. If you're group is good enough to do it you should be allowed to do it. All this does is force everyone to play the same way. It's fewer options in the end, and fewer options is rarely a good thing.

I don't enjoy speed running however after having to run Qarn HM etc a thousand times get old fast you'd do anything to make the experience last shorter. You better believe if there is a black mage I am mass pulling. You can't pull too much in Qarn and the newer dungeons but you can at least pull two groups together.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

I'm not. If you're group is good enough to do it you should be allowed to do it. All this does is force everyone to play the same way. It's fewer options in the end, and fewer options is rarely a good thing.

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Exactly! Forcing me into playing a specific way on something so free form as a dungeon is silly. My group should be able to create the difficulty level if SE refuses to make the dungeons mechanically harder.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

As a Tank, that means I can concentrate on locking in hate on small groups, as a DPS I can focus on killing each enemy without worrying that one will get loose and come after me, and as a Healer I can do my job without panicking every 5 seconds.

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If I played the way you're suggesting then my DPS classes aren't going to be fulfilling and my healer will be bored. I don't want leisure dungeon strolls. I want work. I'm a sch or blm in dungeons and I want work and effort. I have a lot of MP and a lot of DPS that I can do. Don't force me into the 1,2 that most healers do.

Expert dungeons are supposed to be done expertly and by the people who can get through them without half dying everywhere. The current three dungeons are so artificially "hard." Forcing my group to stop for every three mobs is punishment for my hard work as a healer and a dps and my raid tank that can handle anything. I understand that SE is trying to discourage speed pulls but don't think that dungeons are more involving because mobs hit a bit harder and you're forced to stop at a door to pick up something. SE needs to make actual harder dungeons that are mechanically driven other than...kill these wolves for the polar bear that's blocking your entry to appear so you can actually go through the door.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

I am glad there are mechanics to these dungeons that don't encourage or outright prevents these daredevils from putting other party members in needless danger.

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What "needless danger"? So you wipe. Big deal. A wipe isn't the end of the world. It isn't even embarrassing, unless you force yourself to consider it to be so.

The majority of the time, if a tank is pulling hard, and wipes once over the course of a dungeon run, the run is STILL completed more quickly, efficiently, and less boringly than a tank that pulls nothing but effortless groups of 1, 2, or 3 for the entire run.

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Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio

Exactly! Forcing me into playing a specific way on something so free form as a dungeon is silly.

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Exactly! Don't make me SR.

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Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio

If I played the way you're suggesting then my DPS classes aren't going to be fulfilling and my healer will be bored. I don't want leisure dungeon strolls. I want work. I'm a sch or blm in dungeons and I want work and effort.

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I main BLM and sub SCH (and PLD for that matter) and happen to LIKE leisurely strolls. Nothing wrong with that either.

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Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio

are supposed to be done

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You're contradicting yourself by saying first "forcing me to play a specific way" is "silly" and then saying dungeons are "supposed to be" run a specific way. I don't like your way, you don't like my preferred method. /shrugs. If you go into the DF, expect either, don't bitch. Or just go with friends who run dungeons "your way"... I know I do.

(eta: I'm not picking on you, Ophie. ; ; You just happened to mention things in such a way that brought out my need to counter argue for the opposite viewpoint.)

Anecdotal addition:
Friend of mine tanked CM for one of my alts yesterday. He did massive to-the-gate pulls. Sometimes the party lived, sometimes some of us wiped. He mentioned how stressful it was, how he hated it, but that he did it cause the "party expected it". I didn't say anything at the time, cause I knew he felt real bad for any deaths that happened, but I thought to myself, "dude, the ONLY one putting pressure on you to SR is yourself." :/ No one in the party asked for a speed run. No dps ran ahead of the group. He made himself sick over this belief that it "has" to be done this way. And I'll tell you (general readers), it doesn't.

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Originally Posted by Mercuito

1. it's stressfull
2. it's boring cos your just spaming aoes
3. it's risky cos your likely to wipe

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And if your party likes mass pulling it's:
1. fun
2. challenging
3. in case of a wipe you retry D:

But I do agree that before mass pulling tank should make sure that the party (esp. the healer) are ready for it. Though really, all roulettes are so easy that even by just looking at gear he can decide for himself, but just for the sake of being polite...

I have a lot of respect for a tank that can pull a gigantic gaggle of mobs and both stay alive and keep them all on him. It's something I've tried to do and can't. However, the OP is right, there are a LOT of tanks that THINK they can, but can't, or don't look at the party makeup, or even bother communicating with the healer beforehand to see if he/she is up to it. The ones that REALLY piss me off are the ones that pull too big for the party and wipe, then immediately make the exact same pull again as if this time it'll be better when no one has any CDs to use. If the party can't take it the first time, learn from the mistake and pull smaller, don't do the same damn thing then blame everyone else for sucking. I'm sorry if it seems like I'm making a broad generalization on that, but holy crap I've had SO MANY tanks do that very thing and then rage quit because it's clearly the fault of the rest of the party that he didn't learn the first time that the particular party isn't capable of doing such large pulls.

I don't really like tanking. I've done my time in other MMOs and gave it a try on my alt character here and just didn't care for it. I like to think that I'm a pretty competent healer that can take care of large pulls, but sometimes things just go too bad for a competent healer to pull the party through. The best advice I can give as a healer to a tank is this: Know what you are capable of and don't try to exceed it. Communicate with you healer to see if he/she is okay with big pulls, because some of them haven't really picked up the trick to doing it yet and aren't really comfortable wiping a party over and over again so they can learn. Check to see if your DPS is suited to big pulls, enough DPS dmg and properly geared for it. And don't make the same mistake twice. If a party can't handle it once, they probably won't be able to the second time either.