If you don't want to waste your time with people not watching videos, stop going into DF solo and build your own premade parties. I've completed most of the content in this game without ever watching a video, they aren't necessary and most people learn the fights better with actual effort involved and not passively taking part in the "action". All it takes is a simple 30 second explanation and MAYBE a couple of attempts to clear 99% of the content in this game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rydia13
So votekick >abuse< is practically allowed?
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11-25-2014, 08:53 PMBlack_Wing
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11-25-2014, 11:28 PMFeyniphiaIf they can't action those that were abused by being kicked, why not remove hte warning and let us add a text box on adding our own reason for kicking them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alistaire
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11-26-2014, 04:14 AMNiwashiThat's not a limitation at all. Disrupting a run is harassment, and harassment is already listed. The problem is that GMs are allowing it when no harassment has taken place, at least not on the part of the player who got kicked.Quote:
Originally Posted by Enkrateia
Which would only be effective if once the GMs do that investigation, they act on it. Any vote-kick for harassment or cheating needs to result in a suspension from the game. It's up to the GMs' investigation to determine whether that harassment or cheating actually took place (in which case the offending kicked player needs to be banned) or whether it did not (in which case the players who kicked him out are the ones committing the harassment and need to be banned). That needs to happen every single time such vote-kicks are used. Not once every ten thousand times, but on every vote kick.Quote:
Originally Posted by Enkrateia
It should be impossible to select "AFK" or "Disconnected" unless the player actually is afk or disconnected, both of which the software can recognize. And any vote-kick for any other reason should automatically trigger a GM ticket that has to be acted on. If a vote-kick happens for any reason other than a disconnect, then somebody is breaking the rules to disrupt the game of other players. A week or so of not being able to play the game should convince people not to do that.
Unfortunately, that's not what's happening. Currently, the effective "rule" is that people can go ahead and harass other players as much as they want, because SE doesn't like being confrontational, so never punishes any sort of action, regardless of whether it breaks the ToS or not.
Different playstyles, or simply not being "good enough" in the mind of some other player are NOT valid reasons for kicking anybody. If one player doesn't like how another player in their party is performing, then they have the option to leave themself, not the right to kick out the other player. It's the player unwilling to continue the run together that needs to be out.
Kicking somebody else out of a run is a drastic action, and when this feature was first being developed, we were promised that such power would not be given to players without a guarantee that it couldn't be abused. That's why the kick feature has a list of reasons on it in the first place. That's there to ensure that it couldn't be used to get rid of players just because you don't like them. Ignoring that list of valid reasons is inviting abuse. Either start enforcing the rules built into the vote-kick system, or else remove vote-kick from the game altogether. (Obviously, the former would be preferable.) -
11-26-2014, 05:02 AMNyarukoWActually as much as I wish that the system can detect AFK or Disconnected, this actually a very difficult problem to solve. The origins of this actually lies in the "halting problem" see:Quote:
Originally Posted by Niwashi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92WHN-pAFCs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halting_problem
AFK or disconnected is actually indistinguishable, but SE has implemented timers and timeout along with some heuristics to make a reasonable guess at this. But to expect the system to get this right 100% of will either take the age of the universe, or it will be mistaken at times. How many times have you seen players get the red disconnect symbol over their head but they are still talking to you in the mumble or other voice comm and still moving and doing stuff in game? I've that more than a few times, usually followed by really bad result of lag induced raid wipes (imagine they just got shriek in T7). Alternatively, the afk auto-follow fairy healing SCH sure doesn't look like they are AFK, but they really are. So SE is really wise to leave this up to players, but it does opens it up to vote kick abuse.
Furthermore, SE send people the non-definitive auto generated response because SE is reserving the right to apply human wisdom and smarts for investigating and applying action. Anyone that choose to interpret that as open season to vote kick others is asking for penalties. I've got those response immediately after submission, but given limited man power, I've usually only got to talk to the GM and provide additional supporting fact anywhere from 2 to 5 hours later. But the GMs are not letting this stuff slip. Our former FC master, who not resubbed for 6 months now, had fun trolling CT and earned a warning, after which he stopped doing CT altogether. The trouble making FC member that was instigating all of this continued to troll and earned himself a suspension and came back and called the rest of us snitches and left the FC. The GMs may be swamped and may not be very fast to respond, but don't expect to get away with it doing it repeatedly. Players need to actively report the trolls, and vote kick abusers.
The danger here is if you are the minority or one in party of trolls like the one my former FC would put together for CT, good luck if you don't get up getting suspended because you are telling them to stop harassing the other players or alliances. They'd vote kick you for harassment for spoiling their fun. Unfortunately, any serious penalty will require human intervention and wisdom to decide and assess, because the most difficult problems after all are people making trouble for other people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niwashi
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11-26-2014, 05:11 AMBixbyThat'd make it too easy to both ruin a dungeon run and get people who kick you for it suspended. Just be careful about what you say (or say nothing at all) while you're getting everyone killed over and over, then play innocent & confused when they vote kick you. As an added bonus, since every kick results in a suspension, you'd know it worked, too, since you're not getting suspended yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niwashi
Automatic investigation? Maybe. If they get enough (well-trained) GM staff to make that feasible. Automatic suspension? Not so much. -
11-26-2014, 05:43 AMRhasIt's all about *how* you report it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Surian
Open support -> Frequently Asked Questions -> Prohibited Activities in Final Fantasy XIV - > File Report
*Every* time I file a report this way, a GM personally contacts me in game (even if its like 4-6 hours later)
I *have* reported people for abusing the 'kick' feature this way, GM's have directly told me (apologizing for it happening) via a /tell conversation with them saying they are opening an investigation with each incident I've reported and thanking me for reporting them. Abusing vote kick, according to the GM's I have personally talked to in game, is reportable because it affects *your* game experience. -
11-26-2014, 06:00 AMMaeroWow seriously? Those people obviously are clueless about swiftsong, lolQuote:
Originally Posted by AsahinaMyLove
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11-26-2014, 06:06 AMEllatrixGo back and look at what the GM posted, about how when one player may think they aren't doing anything wrong, it is annoying/offensive to a few others in the party then they vote to kick. Also, again, go be bad on your own time and not mine. If the rest of the party wants to win and you're the one holding everyone else back, hurray for vote kick.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niwashi
The majority of people who get kicked deserve it. Posting anecdotes is only half of the story, and if someone is getting kicked repeatedly they are definitely doing something wrong. -
11-26-2014, 06:27 AMNyarukoWUtter garbage. There is no data to substantiate that claim, especially if you exclude the AFK and offline cases. You can call out a troll in a troll party on CT or ST, guess what, you will get kicked. But deserve it because you refuse to troll with them. Right. People in partly formed parties with their friends will vote kick anyone else even if it is their own tank or healer that is messing up. If you point out their mistakes you can be one vote kicked.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellatrix
Yep, call everyone else a troll. Trolls wipe parties for fun, new/newer players just because they can not speed run, does not mean they are not trying or holding people back. People that don't want to speed run are also NOT holding people back, nor are 1st-timers watching cutscenes. Vote kicking people for the playing the game as intended is vote kick abuse, and that both reportable and actionable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellatrix
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11-26-2014, 06:36 AMNiwashiAnd that's the very attitude that should get people banned from the game. There are tools in place for dealing with situations where the group cannot complete the content, or even where you simply don't want to complete it with that group. That's what Leave and Vote Abandon are for. It's NOT what vote-kick is for. If you use Vote Kick, a tool expressly designed for eliminating trolls who are harassing players and trying to disrupt their game, and instead use it to get rid of inexperienced or poorly geared players, or those who don't play up to your imaginary standards, then you're abusing the system and should incur punishment for that. Unfortunately, SE's reluctance to impose penalties means this abuse is almost never punished as it should be, and many people have started treating it as though it were expected and normal to harass other players this way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellatrix