Ninja: Walk in shadow.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Other MMOs have had STR and DEX as stats. Many of said MMOs have given Scout type classes DEX priority. It isn't exactly an innovation that newcomers will need to wrap their minds around.

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FFXIV is not other MMO's.

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The reason has been, and remains to be, balance and general vision of the class and how they want to define the DEX stat moving forward. Keeping DEX as a physical+ranged stat only will make it widely underutilized whereas defining it as a precision-based offensive stat will, for example, have it make sense for both physical+ranged and scout-type classes moving forward.

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They have already defined DEX, why mess with it now? It really boils down to you just want it to be DEX for the sake of being DEX. There is no true benefit to altering the stats beyond what it is now.

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I never once said anything about it affecting drop rates. The luck of the draw here is in DF. More classes existing that use STR means more likelyhood of getting DPS slots filled by jobs that use STR in the DF which means more competition for those items.

As you're leveling up, or doing endgame, if you're a BRD you only compete with other BRDs in the party. If you're a MNK, DRG or NIN, you will end up competing with anybody from those 3 jobs. Again, basic probability here. Competing with half the DPS roster vs competing with only your job.

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What you are saying is, give NIN some BRD gear because it creates this so called "imbalance" right now. What happens when a gun class comes out? Then you have three competing with each other. By your logic then, we should put the gun class in a different stat line from DEX just so it creates a balance in the DF. Do you not see that you are only thinking of now and not what is best for it in the long run? I can see this game getting up to 20+ jobs in it's life cycle and if SE goes by your logic, it will be a complex mess of what job gets what stat just so you can create this fantasy land of equality in DF.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

FFXIV is not other MMO's.

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kthnx. Incredibly valuable contribution here. I mean, FFXIV has taken no ideas or design concepts from any other MMO after all. You got me!

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They have already defined DEX, why mess with it now? It really boils down to you just want it to be DEX for the sake of being DEX. There is no true benefit to altering the stats beyond what it is now.

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Because they can if they see a reason to do so. It's not unlike them to make such simple wording changes. As for the benefits, you really seem adamant in not understanding what I'm saying.

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What you are saying is, give NIN some BRD gear because it creates this so called "imbalance" right now. What happens when a gun class comes out? Then you have three competing with each other. By your logic then, we should put the gun class in a different stat line from DEX just so it creates a balance in the DF. Do you not see that you are only thinking of now and not what is best for it in the long run? I can see this game getting up to 20+ jobs in it's life cycle and if SE goes by your logic, it will be a complex mess of what job gets what stat just so you can create this fantasy land of equality in DF.

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I already expressed what would happen when a gun class comes out. It would be no different from now - a difference of 1 between jobs-per-accessory. I'll explain it again, but for the last time.

Right now we have Slaying, Aiming and Casting accessories for DPS. STR, DEX and INT. We have 5 DPS jobs.

STR: MNK, DRG
DEX: BRD
INT: BLM, SMN

As you can see, the difference between any stat is no greater than 1 job-per-stat. This level of imbalance is necessary and acceptable. If they were to be strict about keeping those values equal, they would have to introduce 3 new DPS class/job at a time. That is simply unreasonable for both developers and players.

If NIN get's a STR build:

STR: MNK, DRG, NIN
DEX: BRD
INT: BLM, SMN

As you can see, there is a difference of 2 jobs per stat, leaning heavily towards STR being utilized. This is a heavy imbalance. If NIN is DEX-based however:

STR: MNK, DRG
DEX: BRD, NIN
INT: BLM, SMN

Each stat has equal competition in a randomly built group. As per your question though, what happens when the gun class comes? Let's call it MSK for simplicity and take a look:

STR: MNK, DRG
DEX: BRD, NIN, MSK
INT: BLM, SMN

We're simply back at the difference of 1 job-per-stat. As you can see, my logic does not involve putting MSK in a stat other than DEX.

You can argue that if NIN is STR-based, we'll have a similar 1 job-per-stat difference when MSK is released anyway, but that only solves the short term issue.

First of all, there will quite some time between 2.4 and the expansion. A minimum of 6 months, as we still have 2.5 confirmed as a patch. That's a significant amount of time to go with such an imbalance.

Secondly, how many ranged jobs can you name? Ranged + physical. How many melee jobs can you name? As we continue to get new jobs, how much do you think DEX will be represented as a primary stat compared to STR if SE goes by the basic convention of STR = physical melee weapons and DEX = physical ranged weapons? Did you give that any thought?

At this point, I feel I've expressed my thoughts as clear as day. Furthermore, all I'm seeing in response is a lack of comprehension or outright disagreement without any actual substantial reason beyond "this is what the tooltips for STR and DEX currently say".
So, if somebody makes a compelling argument against the points I've made, I'm happy to continue. Otherwise, I'll be here playing the game and waiting until an official announcement or 2.4 release to see what they go with.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

so

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Basically, it doesn't matter if they put it STR now or DEX now.　STR, 3 classes roll　in the near future. DEX, 3 classes roll in the far future. So that's a case closed argument.

As for NIN being STR, I'd like to believe Naoki wasn't joking when he said to save our melee gear. I've been gathering many i110 STR gear in anticipation that he wasn't trying to appease us.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

Basically, it doesn't matter if they put it STR now or DEX now.　STR, 3 classes roll　in the near future. DEX, 3 classes roll in the far future. So that's a case closed argument.

As for NIN being STR, I'd like to believe Naoki wasn't joking when he said to save our melee gear. I've been gathering many i110 STR gear in anticipation that he wasn't trying to appease us.

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I was going to make a long post in reaction to his, but this sums it up nicely. Getting tired of beating a dead horse at this point. Let 2.4 come out and see what happens.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

Basically, it doesn't matter if they put it STR now or DEX now.　STR, 3 classes roll　in the near future. DEX, 3 classes roll in the far future. So that's a case closed argument.

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Again, missing the entire damn point. Holy cow, it's downright amazing how blind one can chose to be.

The point isn't the damn 3. Having 3 jobs for 1 statisn't, by itself, the point. The point is having 1 stat shared by 3 jobs whist another stat is exclusive to 1 job, simultaneously, is the point. The difference of 2+ between stats. That's the freaking point. I thought I spelled it out above, but even that isn't enough apparently lol.

So, no. It's not a case closed argument. In fact, there has been no effective counter-argument. Just a bunch of people who want it to be case-closed lol.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

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We know what you are saying. But you want to completely alter stats to just have your balance put into place, not for the actual sense of making NIN a DEX based class. That is why you make no sense. You would make more sense if you said "They should of put gun class in before Ninja to balance the loot tables.". There is no need to change how stats work in this game to cater to one job and how the loot distribution is right now.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

We know what you are saying. But you want to completely alter stats to just have your balance put into place, not for the actual sense of making NIN a DEX based class. That is why you make no sense. You would make more sense if you said "They should of put gun class in before Ninja to balance the loot tables.". There is no need to change how stats work in this game to cater to one job and how the loot distribution is right now.

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I further emphasized that with the way the stats are worded now, there will inevitably be a growing imbalance because physical melee jobs are more abundant in number than physical ranged jobs. But sure, chose not to actually address what I'm saying and suggest I make no sense and that you understand me whilst demonstrating that you don't.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

I further emphasized that with the way the stats are worded now, there will inevitably be a growing imbalance because physical melee jobs are more abundant in number than physical ranged jobs. But sure, chose not to actually address what I'm saying and suggest I make no sense and that you understand me whilst demonstrating that you don't.

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That is irrelevant, SE can as easily make more ranged damage dealers. Who exactly expected a job like Corsair, or making a Bard a ranged DPS for that matter?

Why do some of you get your underwear in a bunch. This arguing about a class and job that will be coming out only in october, lol
Everyone has a right to their opinion but nobody knows yet or have actual real facts yet as SE have not released much as of yet.
I do expect they will release info coming September however. So chill out folks, haha

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Originally Posted by Velhart

That is irrelevant, SE can as easily make more ranged damage dealers. Who exactly expected a job like Corsair, or making a Bard a ranged DPS for that matter?

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So SE will make a large number of physical ranged jobs to utilize their narrow definition of DEX as it is now in a manner balanced with melee jobs. Furthermore, there will be new casters added, who are also traditionally ranged.

A significant number of the DPS jobs in the game will be ranged. Nice.

The way DEX is defined now, either DEX remains an under-utilized stat, or the game's DPS roster becomes heavily ranged. Can't have both, unfortunately. That is unless they broaden the scope of DEX or INT, so INT is used for physical attacks at melee range for some magical knight type jobs or DEX is used at melee range for scout or other precision-over-power type jobs.


Ultimately, to clarify, I'm not suggesting that DEX will be the stat for Rogue and Ninja for sure. Nobody can say that. I am simply countering any notion that STR is essentially guaranteed to be the stat, and suggesting that they can feasibly go with STR or DEX at this point. In addition to that, I am giving reasons for why I, personally, think DEX would be the wiser choice.