What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

A lot of people seem to be missing the point of Venat's actions...

She was faced with imminent, absolute death of everything... or having to be a villain to her people so that a new people could have a chance at saving SOME form of life.

She chose the latter. She wasn't 'absolute good', and she is absolutely justifiably seen as evil to those she harmed... but the alternative was what? Meteion quashing literally all forms of life and leaving the universe with literally nothing in it.

So like... ya. She's not 'super good guy who was unambiguously good!' but if she was... that'd be boring. She was put in the difficult decision: Destroy her world so that SOME world could live... or let everything die in exchange for her world having a little bit of extra time. Tough decision. The decision she made, at least currently, appears to have been the correct one. We stopped the 'final days'. Her people most likely couldn't have - they were too aetherically strong to deal with the dynamis. But... was there another way? Maybe. We'll never know.

She committed awful acts but in doing so secured a future for life as a concept.

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Originally Posted by Elesh

She was faced with imminent, absolute death of everything... or having to be a villain to her people so that a new people could have a chance at saving SOME form of life.

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No, she wasn't, the Final Days had been averted by Zodiark. There was no further risk to the star nor would there be for at least 12k years, which she knew.

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Originally Posted by Elesh

A lot of people seem to be missing the point of Venat's actions...

She was faced with imminent, absolute death of everything... or having to be a villain to her people so that a new people could have a chance at saving SOME form of life.

She chose the latter. She wasn't 'absolute good', and she is absolutely justifiably seen as evil to those she harmed... but the alternative was what? Meteion quashing literally all forms of life and leaving the universe with literally nothing in it.

So like... ya. She's not 'super good guy who was unambiguously good!' but if she was... that'd be boring. She was put in the difficult decision: Destroy her world so that SOME world could live... or let everything die in exchange for her world having a little bit of extra time. Tough decision. The decision she made, at least currently, appears to have been the correct one. We stopped the 'final days'. Her people most likely couldn't have - they were too aetherically strong to deal with the dynamis. But... was there another way? Maybe. We'll never know.

She committed awful acts but in doing so secured a future for life as a concept.

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Or. . .maybe tell her people what was going on so that a select group of them could be sundered, deal with the problem and then be rejoined. But her not telling them what was going on is what doomed them. That, my friend, is genocide very much clear cut.

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The beauty of storytelling is that it is fundamentally subjective. I'm sad that you didn't enjoy the story. But the point of the story in Endwalker was that it was an enjoyable story for a large segment of people who fall into the 'not you' category of the world.

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A lot of people seem to be missing the point of Venat's actions...

She was faced with imminent, absolute death of everything... or having to be a villain to her people so that a new people could have a chance at saving SOME form of life.

She chose the latter. She wasn't 'absolute good', and she is absolutely justifiably seen as evil to those she harmed... but the alternative was what? Meteion quashing literally all forms of life and leaving the universe with literally nothing in it.

Her people most likely couldn't have - they were too aetherically strong to deal with the dynamis.

She committed awful acts but in doing so secured a future for life as a concept.

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Two posts in and my "Standard Endwalker Defense That Has Already Been Argued About In Pages Past" bingo has already been filled, well done. Here, take my blessing!

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But... was there another way? Maybe. We'll never know.

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Yeah... perhaps another way that would not have been the figurative one-eyed man with a monopoly over information lording over and using all the blind as pawns (but remember, she just loves us!). Meanwhile, I will forever wonder what went wrong with the lore that I liked for ~7 years and how they managed to destroy it all in one "Burning of TelAmaurot" scene. And the slow-motion carcrash that was Ultima Thule (liked the instrumental music though).

Mommy's beauty mommy's grace
she will genocide your entire race

Amen Mommy Hydaelyn

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Some of the zones are so disconnected from one another that I do suspect that the rewrites were more than just at a surface level. It wouldn't surprise me if certain zones were originally meant to be played in a different order and potentially with a completely different context as well.

Knowing that Eden was originally meant to be the final boss of Shadowbringers only to become the focus of a 24-man raid instead, it's also entirely possible that models made for a different purpose were instead quietly reused elsewhere.

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You mean to tell me that we could've saved killing Hades for 5.3 thus allowing Elidibus to live through 6.0 and get a worthy conclusion to his arc as he relates to Zodiark? Now you've just made me mad.

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

I actually disagree with this assessment.

I enjoyed the fact that the story made me give a measure of respect to a character I once disliked a great deal. I like the fact that, by Endwalker, he is actually pretty unimportant/not really a priority to the WoL - he realises this and decides to not let that bother him. Whilst everyone else is pondering the meaning of happiness, here is a guy who found it and knows that all he needs to learn is how to reach it. And he does, because when Alisaie calls him out, he listens.

And he was right about us, when he identified our 'Adventurer' roots. and recognized that we were heroes through circumstance and a need to do the right thing, rather than choice, and the way we fight reflects that. I feel the only answer that wasn't dishonest was "That, I can't deny" (and the grin that my character gave when she said that is one of best things my character has ever done) when he tells us he knows what we are.

I have to add that I truly enjoyed the fight. We were never really on equal terms with him until this fight, and due to that he truly doesn't hold anything back. He pours everything he is in that fight and so do we. Two souls burning their absolute hottest and brightest - the greatest joy Zenos has ever known and the only joy he can ever share, in stark contrast to the theme of despair that the 'zone' had been about.

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The thing is though….we did all of this already. It’s boring and stale. We fought him solo, numerous times including the final fight. He was so content that he took his own life. Why bring him back only to repeat literally the same exact story line that added absolutely nothing to the overall story arc besides take up time that could’ve been spent towards yknow….the two main deities this arc has revolved around?

The Ancients whipped up Zodiark with virtually no prep time. A Creation so powerful, he kept Eitherys shielded for 12k years, while sundered at that.

Imagine what they could do if they weren't hindered by a lack of information.

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Originally Posted by OhNooo

No but seriously. EW literally turned me into a cutscene skipper. I feel so silly spending so much time looking into the lore..and then seeing the joke they gave us as an ending to a 10 year arc. At this point I wish I could have enjoyed it. But now I'm just a jaded player that chuckles a little when I see an excited sprout "Aww yeah I remember when I was excited to play this game..."

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And as a bonus, we're going to ignore Elpis sidequests and Amaurot, and go with the idea that... they're just gods, doing godly things to each other, so you see, it's more like a mythological origin story, and it's hard to see that as genocides or see it as an atrocity... again, just gods doing godly things to each other! All that effort humanising them, showing they valued debate etc? Nope, the ancient thing to do is a bit of casual totally-not-genocide (come now, you're creating life... if we ignore the minor cost of the ancients going extinct...) whenever someone reacts the wrong way emotionally to your pearls of wisdom! Or better yet, dooming the entirety of the universe because you, fine Overseer of Elpis, are the only person with feelings and totally not someone with their head firmly entrenched up their buttocks most if not all of the time. A veritable first step for mankind!

Was what the Joker did wrong, or was it the first step for Gotham City? bottom text

This conversation is hilarious.

Everyone's acting like they know, with exact detail, every bit of what happened between the end of our arc in Elpis and the Sundering. We don't. We don't know what Venat tried. WE just know that she was unable to convince people not to rely on Zodiark as if it was a panacea. That's all we know. We don't know how much info she tried to give them, or how little. We don't know what she told them and what she didn't. We don't know what she tried or what they did. We have none of that information.

But you're acting like she just... did nothing until it was time to go kill everyone. Without any actual indication that that was the case. And then you're taking your OWN BASELESS TIMELINE OF EVENTS and using that to make a judgement call about how you feel about the rest of the story.

For all you know, maybe she TRIED to tell people exactly what happened, and everyone was just like 'oh great, the former member of the convocation's off her rocker. Let's put her on a farm somewhere so she can have peace' - that's probably not likely. But her sitting around and not doing ANYTHING is also equally unlikely. So the reality is probably somewhere in between 'her being laughed at like a crazy person' and 'her sitting around doing nothing the whole time'

We really don't know.

But I know this isn't going to change any of your minds about your 'she did nothing and then committed genocide' fanfics of the situation, so I'll bow out here. Have a nice day.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

The thing is though….we did all of this already. It’s boring and stale. We fought him solo, numerous times including the final fight. He was so content that he took his own life. Why bring him back only to repeat literally the same exact story line that added absolutely nothing to the overall story arc besides take up time that could’ve been spent towards yknow….the two main deities this arc has revolved around?

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Plus there's other characters who like to brawl, who I'd much sooner brawl with rather than him. He's better than the Scions, but this stuff about being some mirror etc.? Maybe one of those you find in a fun house.

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

The Ancients whipped up Zodiark with virtually no prep time. A Creation so powerful, he kept Eitherys shielded for 12k years, while sundered at that.

Imagine what they could do if they weren't hindered by a lack of information.

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DID they just whip up Zodiark with no prep time? Or was he already a concept they pulled out and modified to fit this purpose? Unanswered questions here, hopefully answered in Pandaemonium (probably not).

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

I actually disagree with this assessment.

I enjoyed the fact that the story made me give a measure of respect to a character I once disliked a great deal. I like the fact that, by Endwalker, he is actually pretty unimportant/not really a priority to the WoL - he realises this and decides to not let that bother him. Whilst everyone else is pondering the meaning of happiness, here is a guy who found it and knows that all he needs to learn is how to reach it. And he does, because when Alisaie calls him out, he listens.

And he was right about us, when he identified our 'Adventurer' roots. and recognized that we were heroes through circumstance and a need to do the right thing, rather than choice, and the way we fight reflects that. I feel the only answer that wasn't dishonest was "That, I can't deny" (and the grin that my character gave when she said that is one of best things my character has ever done) when he tells us he knows what we are.

I have to add that I truly enjoyed the fight. We were never really on equal terms with him until this fight, and due to that he truly doesn't hold anything back. He pours everything he is in that fight and so do we. Two souls burning their absolute hottest and brightest - the greatest joy Zenos has ever known and the only joy he can ever share, in stark contrast to the theme of despair that the 'zone' had been about.

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Every time a story forces me to "respect" a character. I start hating them. I was a fan of Zenos in StB, but here..... Here I want to do nothing more than delete his mouth and give him cement shoes. His whole character arc this expansion was effectively learning how to say please. That's not a good arc and that's not a good character. The dude ripped my character out of her body against her will then nearly killed her friends/allies with her own body. There is no coming back from that in my eyes. Also they didn't even fully lean into the horror that he provides. He doesn't actually kill anyone, there's no consequences to anything he does except Zodiark being let out, which there's a million ways that could have been achieved without his presence at all.

You mention that in your eyes the only right choice is "That, I cannot deny." How about if I said screw that? Kill him and end his BS OR not fight him at all and walk away like he said he would let us do.

I would have rather he stay dead the first time.

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Originally Posted by Elesh

This conversation is hilarious.

Everyone's acting like they know, with exact detail, every bit of what happened between the end of our arc in Elpis and the Sundering. We don't. We don't know what Venat tried. WE just know that she was unable to convince people not to rely on Zodiark as if it was a panacea. That's all we know. We don't know how much info she tried to give them, or how little. We don't know what she told them and what she didn't. We don't know what she tried or what they did. We have none of that information.

But you're acting like she just... did nothing until it was time to go kill everyone. Without any actual indication that that was the case. And then you're taking your OWN BASELESS TIMELINE OF EVENTS and using that to make a judgement call about how you feel about the rest of the story.

For all you know, maybe she TRIED to tell people exactly what happened, and everyone was just like 'oh great, the former member of the convocation's off her rocker. Let's put her on a farm somewhere so she can have peace' - that's probably not likely. But her sitting around and not doing ANYTHING is also equally unlikely. So the reality is probably somewhere in between 'her being laughed at like a crazy person' and 'her sitting around doing nothing the whole time'

We really don't know.

But I know this isn't going to change any of your minds about your 'she did nothing and then committed genocide' fanfics of the situation, so I'll bow out here. Have a nice day.

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We do know though. We know for a fact she didn’t tell them about Meteion because Emet says he doesn’t know what caused the final days in ShB. We can infer she didn’t tell her followers that she’d be consuming their souls or what exactly the sundering would do because they say that they’ll miss her….can’t really miss her if your souls are consumed guys. You’re bowing out of the conversation because you know you’re wrong, you know Venat’s wrong, and you just can’t handle saying “maybe you’re right,” so you run away.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Or better yet, dooming the entirety of the universe because you, fine Overseer of Elpis, are the only person with feelings and totally not someone with their head firmly entrenched up their buttocks most if not all of the time. A veritable first step for mankind!

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Hermes: "No one understands me. I'm so alone...." *is antisocial and doesn't make any effort to reach out to anyone or understand anyone else* "Noooo don't you dare kill this violent predator! They deserve to live at the cost of the other species they killed!" *doesn't mourn for all the species the predator decimated*

*cue Linkin Park background music CRAWLINGGG IN MY SKINNNNNNN, THESE WOUNDS THEY WILL NOT HEEEEEAAAALLLLLLL*


"Can't pass my test if you don't know the rules amirite. Humanity deserves to die anyway." - Hermes probably

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...wn_shit_up.jpg

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Originally Posted by Elesh

Everyone's acting like they know, with exact detail, every bit of what happened between the end of our arc in Elpis and the Sundering. We don't. We don't know what Venat tried. WE just know that she was unable to convince people not to rely on Zodiark as if it was a panacea. That's all we know. We don't know how much info she tried to give them, or how little. We don't know what she told them and what she didn't. We don't know what she tried or what they did. We have none of that information.

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Did you watch the LL Q&A? A lot of what we know comes directly from Yoshi-P, Ishikawa, and Oda.

Kizuya has the right of it though. Based on the information presented in both ShB and EW, Venat didn't tell anyone about the root cause of the Final Days (or arguably the sundering). Even the Watcher, her own minion tasked with overseeing Zodiark, doesn't know.

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Originally Posted by OhNooo

Hermes: "No one understands me. I'm so alone...." *is antisocial and doesn't make any effort to reach out to anyone or understand anyone else* "Noooo don't you dare kill this violent predator! They deserve to live at the cost of the other species they killed!" *doesn't mourn for all the species the predator decimated*

*cue Linkin Park background music CRAWLINGGG IN MY SKINNNNNNN, THESE WOUNDS THEY WILL NOT HEEEEEAAAALLLLLLL*


"Can't pass my test if you don't know the rules amirite. Humanity deserves to die anyway." - Hermes probably

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...wn_shit_up.jpg

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And our lovely qween Venat goes along with his shitty test because......idk she crazy.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

And our lovely qween Venat goes along with his shitty test because......idk she crazy.

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Um because she's an Ancient, sweetie, duh. That's just what these kooky old Ancients did, murder by negligence (those attempts to warn people sure seemed half-assed given the results we know of rather than what she told us she would try doing) to prove a point about humanity.

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Originally Posted by OhNooo

Don't you see that the ones going through all that suffering have a much better existence because they're better equipped to deal with suffering since they deal with it all the time, whereas the first person I mentioned lives a comfortable life with no hardships. Just unbearable! They need to at least have a couple of diseases or maybe a little poverty in their life. I mean look at Sisyphus, one must imagine he's overjoyed:

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I just realized this story is basically Venat telling us to pick ourselves up by our bootstraps and that people can't get houses because of Avocado toast.

And here I thought it was just trauma porn...

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

It's honestly unfathomable that Venat gets to be depicted as some sort of messianic archetype despite not only being responsible for sundering all of Eitherys into 14 separate shards populated by people with no memories of their previous lives and drastically weaker than before, but also the sheer amount of devastation Emet-Selch, Lahabrea, Elidibus, and the rest of the shattered Convocation would leave in their wake in their desparate bid to reawaken Zodiark and restore their world. To say she has blood on her hands would be the greatest of understatements.

It would have been so much better if instead of doubling down on the whole "Crystal Mommy can do no wrong and loves us because we're her children :)" schtick, the narrative painted her exactly as she is. A flawed Ancient who jumped the gun on Sundering all of Eitherys based on Meteion's report, and the overwhelming guilt that would come of such an action, even if it was to save a world that isn't her own.

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Let's not forget that by failing to involve the convocation and only working on her half-baked solution to saving Eteirys, she also doomed every other life in the universe to cease existence to Meteion's song.

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Originally Posted by Elesh

This conversation is hilarious.

Everyone's acting like they know, with exact detail, every bit of what happened between the end of our arc in Elpis and the Sundering. We don't. We don't know what Venat tried. WE just know that she was unable to convince people not to rely on Zodiark as if it was a panacea. That's all we know. We don't know how much info she tried to give them, or how little. We don't know what she told them and what she didn't. We don't know what she tried or what they did. We have none of that information.

But you're acting like she just... did nothing until it was time to go kill everyone. Without any actual indication that that was the case. And then you're taking your OWN BASELESS TIMELINE OF EVENTS and using that to make a judgement call about how you feel about the rest of the story.

For all you know, maybe she TRIED to tell people exactly what happened, and everyone was just like 'oh great, the former member of the convocation's off her rocker. Let's put her on a farm somewhere so she can have peace' - that's probably not likely. But her sitting around and not doing ANYTHING is also equally unlikely. So the reality is probably somewhere in between 'her being laughed at like a crazy person' and 'her sitting around doing nothing the whole time'

We really don't know.

But I know this isn't going to change any of your minds about your 'she did nothing and then committed genocide' fanfics of the situation, so I'll bow out here. Have a nice day.

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And the fact that you had to formulate your entire argument upon you coming up with your own hypotheticals to fill in the massive blanks left by the writing doesn't tell you anything about the quality of the story? The fact that your have to lead with "for all we know" in order to justify her actions isn't a huge red flag?

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Originally Posted by Elesh

This conversation is hilarious.

Everyone's acting like they know, with exact detail, every bit of what happened between the end of our arc in Elpis and the Sundering. We don't. We don't know what Venat tried. WE just know that she was unable to convince people not to rely on Zodiark as if it was a panacea. That's all we know. We don't know how much info she tried to give them, or how little. We don't know what she told them and what she didn't. We don't know what she tried or what they did. We have none of that information.

But you're acting like she just... did nothing until it was time to go kill everyone. Without any actual indication that that was the case. And then you're taking your OWN BASELESS TIMELINE OF EVENTS and using that to make a judgement call about how you feel about the rest of the story.

For all you know, maybe she TRIED to tell people exactly what happened, and everyone was just like 'oh great, the former member of the convocation's off her rocker. Let's put her on a farm somewhere so she can have peace' - that's probably not likely. But her sitting around and not doing ANYTHING is also equally unlikely. So the reality is probably somewhere in between 'her being laughed at like a crazy person' and 'her sitting around doing nothing the whole time'

We really don't know.

But I know this isn't going to change any of your minds about your 'she did nothing and then committed genocide' fanfics of the situation, so I'll bow out here. Have a nice day.

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Except she literally tells the WoL at the end of the Elpis story that she won't be telling the convocation what happened because a) it would just cause panic (ah! Yes my favorite bad writing trope) and b) we need Themis' help to understand Dynamis and prevent the final days and if I told the convocation, they'd just put him in prison.

Except dumb dumb Venat, you know that Themis' won't do shit to prevent the final days because I told you half an hour ago that the final days are happening and you will be the one genocide all the ancients.

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Originally Posted by Elesh

This is funny! You're just making up fanfiction, so here's my fanfiction instead! No, stop dabbing on me, stop! I'll just go to another thread to complain about you and how you need to shut up!

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It's okay to admit that ShB/EW had really infuriatingly muddy and vague writing regarding all this. Since the writing team seems to want us to fill in the blanks ourselves, I will now proceed to imagine her sitting on a tropical island sipping drinks with little umbrellas in them served by happy bunnies while, err, "shoring up defenses".

Fair's fair, considering I have sat through 3 1/2 years of "the ancients were bad and had it coming because.... oop! [goalpost shift and repeat]"

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Originally Posted by not_ya_wify

Except she literally tells the WoL at the end of the Elpis story that she won't be telling the convocation what happened because a) it would just cause panic (ah! Yes my favorite bad writing trope) and b) we need Themis' help to understand Dynamis and prevent the final days and if I told the convocation, they'd just put him in prison.

Except dumb dumb Venat, you know that Themis' won't do shit to prevent the final days because I told you half an hour ago that the final days are happening and you will be the one genocide all the ancients.

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Think you mean Fandaniel/Hermes. Themis is a good boy.

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Originally Posted by Elesh

That's all we know. We don't know how much info she tried to give them, or how little. We don't know what she told them and what she didn't. We don't know what she tried or what they did. We have none of that information.

But you're acting like she just... did nothing until it was time to go kill everyone. Without any actual indication that that was the case. And then you're taking your OWN BASELESS TIMELINE OF EVENTS and using that to make a judgement call about how you feel about the rest of the story.

For all you know, maybe she TRIED to tell people exactly what happened, and everyone was just like 'oh great, the former member of the convocation's off her rocker. Let's put her on a farm somewhere so she can have peace' - that's probably not likely. But her sitting around and not doing ANYTHING is also equally unlikely. So the reality is probably somewhere in between 'her being laughed at like a crazy person' and 'her sitting around doing nothing the whole time'

We really don't know.

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The problem with this line of thought is that we really do know. We know at least for certain what she did not do, and that is to inform anyone that mattered about what was going to happen to the star and who/what would cause it. How do we know this? Because we are told by two different Convocation members at different times and by the Watcher on the moon also that no one knew the cause of the Final Days. Even up till our present day, the origin was a complete mystery. This means that Venat told none of the Convocation (the only people who would have actually been able to do anything of consequence) and kept life-saving, hell, WORLD-saving information to herself.

And no one was going to treat her like she was mad. We learned a couple of scenes prior to the Hermes confrontation that the Ancients routinely use the Echo to relive moments of the past. Claiming that she couldn't get anyone at all to believe her is a moot point. She just had to show them.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

and by his very nature G'raha is the biggest thematic walking contradiction in the entire universe

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Also, can we talk about how inconsistent time travel works?

When G'raha travels in time he creates a separate timeline and is able to change the past.

However, when the WoL travels back in time (using the same method documented by G'raha in the Crystal Tower), we get a continuous timeline in which the actions we take were predestined and it is impossible to change the outcome.

This was probably the biggest let down for me and Elpis was an emotional rollercoaster that kept playing with my wish to save the ancients then brutally tearing it away again. After Shadowbringers, I wanted nothing more than to save the ancients but I knew that wouldn't be possible because rejoining the star would mean our starter cities (and every other locale) would stop existing which cannot happen in an MMO. Then when I heard the WoL is traveling back in time, I thought "OMG! Are we getting a separate timeline where we get to save EVERYONE?" And I thought that was an ingenious solution to the problem. But then Elidibus said "you cannot change the past" and utter disappointment hit me. Well why the fuck not? It's not like the echo where I'm just visiting memories. I'm actually going there, so why shouldn't I be able to save them? Then I get there as a ghost and I think "oh that's why.... I see what Elidibus meant." But then Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus come by and they can see me and give me a body and I think "OMG SAVING THE ANCIENTS IS BACK ON THE TABLE!" But for some reason there are no dialogue options to spill the tea and that's infuriating because the very first thing I would do is hug Emet-Selch and ugly cry and tell him about all that happened. So, I think "oh great, now the writing is forcing me to not do anything even though I totally could." Then Venat comes and forces us to spill the tea and I think "oh thank God! I AM changing everything after all." Then Hermes goes fucking ballistic and wipes people's memories (how convenient that's how I'm unable to change anything which Elidibus who had no idea of anything beforehand told me I couldn't do). But Venat somehow saves our memory and I think "Great! All I have to do is convince Emet-Selch of what just happened there." But Venat goes "nah, people will just panic if you tell them and Emet-Selch would totally put behind Hermes behind bars which in my personal super unbiased opinion is like not a good idea." WoL: "let me stay and help you."
Venat: "nah, I got this. Trust me bro."

I'm not usually one to get angry over video games but I was on Discord with an FC member and I screamed at her "YOU STUPID FUCKING BITCH I HATE YOU YOU RUINED EVERYTHING YOU INCOMPETENT BITCH." After that my FC member yelled at me for ruining the story for him and we later talked about it and apologized but it's been awkward ever since.

Also can I just say it feels so good to finally talk to people who hated EW too. Whenever anything negative is mentioned about EW on social media you get hounded and everyone calls you crazy.

I've been starting to think that something is wrong with me when the story is so glaringly bad in my eyes but nobody else sees it that way.

I think on some level even those who supposedly love Endwalker know that it was a mess on many fronts. If they were truly so confident in the quality of the writing then they wouldn't need to police opinions and reactions.

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Originally Posted by not_ya_wify

Also can I just say it feels so good to finally talk to people who hated EW too. Whenever anything negative is mentioned about EW on social media you get hounded and everyone calls you crazy.

I've been starting to think that something is wrong with me when the story is so glaringly bad in my eyes but nobody else sees it that way.

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I've noticed, especially starting in ShB and the constant flood of frenetic journalist/fan praise, that FFXIV and its fans have hung their coat on the rack of "visual novel with an optional multiplayer lobby attached". If the story itself is lackluster in the eyes of some, then what does the game offer?

Therein lies the desperation to hound/harass/gaslight...

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Originally Posted by Elesh

For all you know, maybe she TRIED to tell people exactly what happened, and everyone was just like 'oh great, the former member of the convocation's off her rocker.

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She didn't, Nobody other than her understood the true nature of the final days, so its safe to assume she didn't share enough.

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So the reality is probably somewhere in between 'her being laughed at like a crazy person' and 'her sitting around doing nothing the whole time'

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Ignoring the fact Venat was a highly revered member of their society whose warnings would be very unlikely to engender skepticism, coupled with the fact that all ancients had the echo which would have allowed them to discern the truth for themselves anyways, Emet had little reason to believe our story, and yet he still cared enough to investigate Hermes of his on volition. Despite how implausible our story seemed to him, the safeguarding of Etheirys was still his highest priority and would do anything to preserve its existence.

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Originally Posted by not_ya_wify

Also can I just say it feels so good to finally talk to people who hated EW too. Whenever anything negative is mentioned about EW on social media you get hounded and everyone calls you crazy.

I've been starting to think that something is wrong with me when the story is so glaringly bad in my eyes but nobody else sees it that way.

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Every time I see a new person on this thread post this, it feels so heartwarming, I genuinely mean it.

Honestly it was so bad early December. I was able to burn through MSQ in 3-4 days because I had no queue due to being European on NA DC. As a result I knew everything while my friends were just slogging through the early levels, and of course they wanted no spoilers, so I just sat there simmering at this bizarrely convoluted and utterly unsatisfying storyline that disappointed me so much. I turned to Reddit, and nearly instantly unsubscribed from the main sub when seeing the seemingly universally positive response. Got dogpiled for saying something felt deeply wrong about what the story wanted to tell me about Venat and the narrative surrounding Ancients, and that it all felt emotionally manipulative. I felt crazy. I only found solace reading a couple of posts on the discussion subreddit that shared my opinion of how absurd the plot was. Stopped going on Twitter as well as soon as I stumbled upon kawaii uguu art of the World Unsundered's saddest vegan edgelord retweeted by some of the Ascian enjoyers I followed, because I will do anything for love, but I won't do that.

Thankfully my friends allowed me to unleash spoilers on them mid/late December, and it turned out they found the whole thing weirdly stupid and borderline insulting as well.

And, the most bizarre thing of all: the dreaded official forums that Reddit so loves to deride as a hive of scum and villainy were the only place that felt sane. How the turn tables!

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Originally Posted by not_ya_wify

This was probably the biggest let down for me and Elpis was an emotional rollercoaster that kept playing with my wish to save the ancients then brutally tearing it away again.

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Same. I was expecting an AU coming off of ShB and, despite what Elidibus said, both Venat and Hythlodaeus state while we cannot change our own future we may yet be able to change theirs. I don't have to tell you to imagine my disappointment because you experienced it. As soon as Hermes whipped out Kairos, the fury I felt. Then watching Emet & Hyth have their memories wiped I just started sobbing. I was/am so angry. Not even at Hermes, but at the writers.

I still had some measure of hope for Venat because by telling her about the future we'd given her the opportunity for a redo. Surely she would do things differently knowing how they turned out, but nope! She rattles off her nonsensical list as to why she's going to do everything the same and then I'm subjected to the atrocious cutscene people praise of her pity walk through the ages after she decides to genocide her race. Spare me.

I would say I emotionally tapped out of EW at that point but, no, they had to twist the knife by bringing Emet & Hyth back in Ultima Thule and again I sobbed with fury at the writers for doing this to my two favorite characters. I saw someone on Reddit comment that EW was cathartic. I have no idea how. Anyone who was a fan of the Ancients the story couldn't have gone any worse than it did. I will perpetually feel unfulfilled because of this ridiculous time loop.

I keep thinking back to the and of 1.0 and what I've read about it, and that seems to be more like an end of days than anything we got with EW. Terrain actually changed, cities experience monster invasions and the red moon Dalamud would appear closer and closer in the sky. These are things that would make the world feel like something is actually happening, rather than just changing the weather in two zones.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

I keep thinking back to the and of 1.0 and what I've read about it, and that seems to be more like an end of days than anything we got with EW. Terrain actually changed, cities experience monster invasions and the red moon Dalamud would appear closer and closer in the sky. These are things that would make the world feel like something is actually happening, rather than just changing the weather in two zones.

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When I saw the EW benchmark trailer where it had everyone fighting together, it made me think we'd get some huge ingame end of the world scenario like they got in 1.0. I was so excited. What a missed opportunity. We could've had mobs spawning inside cities, terrain changes, etc to make it really feel like the final days.

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Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

That's why I liken Venat's actions to an act of ruthless utilitarian calculus. There are plenty of scenarios in which they could've resulted in better outcomes than had she not done anything, as heinous as they were.

That just ends up making Venat an even bigger hypocrite though, and doesn't negate the rest of your post.

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Utilitarianism is literally "the greatest happiness for the greatest number."

Venat condemning every living being to eternal suffering is the opposite of utilitarianism.

Just some advice, I'd recommend not making posts in succession, as there's a daily post limit on the forum - it's better to try consolidate posts into one. You can exceed the character limit for the post by making it and then hitting edit, and adding more in.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Just some advice, I'd recommend not making posts in succession, as there's a daily post limit on the forum - it's better to try consolidate posts into one. You can exceed the character limit for the post by making it and then hitting edit, and adding more in.

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Thanks but quoting from several posts is incredibly cumbersome on mobile and for some reason I have no way of circumventing the character limit. I also cannot edit or delete my posts which is really annoying because I just posted a whole long thing with quick reply and it only posted the first sentence, so I'll put it in here:

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Same. I was expecting an AU coming off of ShB and, despite what Elidibus said, both Venat and Hythlodaeus state while we cannot change our own future we may yet be able to change theirs. I don't have to tell you to imagine my disappointment because you experienced it. As soon as Hermes whipped out Kairos, the fury I felt. Then watching Emet & Hyth have their memories wiped I just started sobbing. I was/am so angry. Not even at Hermes, but at the writers.

I still had some measure of hope for Venat because by telling her about the future we'd given her the opportunity for a redo. Surely she would do things differently knowing how they turned out, but nope! She rattles off her nonsensical list as to why she's going to do everything the same and then I'm subjected to the atrocious cutscene people praise of her pity walk through the ages after she decides to genocide her race. Spare me.

I would say I emotionally tapped out of EW at that point but, no, they had to twist the knife by bringing Emet & Hyth back in Ultima Thule and again I sobbed with fury at the writers for doing this to my two favorite characters. I saw someone on Reddit comment that EW was cathartic. I have no idea how. Anyone who was a fan of the Ancients the story couldn't have gone any worse than it did. I will perpetually feel unfulfilled because of this ridiculous time loop.

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OMG FINALLY SOMEONE UNDERSTANDS

Honestly, I didn't have nearly as negative a reaction to Hermes as to Venat, because Hermes is presented as the villain and we see his mental decline continuing in Amon and Fandaniel. Venat on the other hand does all these atrocious things and the game forces us to smile and say "mommy makes everything right."

It's my head canon now that Hydaelyn tempered us which is why we cannot disagree with her or hold her accountable and why we keep indulging her cruelty. I sometimes make up stories in my head about my reflection on another shard in which Emet-Selch helps the WoL undo her tempering (before Shadowbringers) and I get to oppose her and try to find a compromise with Emet-Selch to find a way to rejoin souls without causing calamities. I know this will never happen but I need that to cope.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Think you mean Fandaniel/Hermes. Themis is a good boy.

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Yeah that was a brain fart. Sorry about that but I think you know whom I meant

Ah, I see... yeah mobile is a pain, because of those very issues you mention.

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Originally Posted by not_ya_wify

It's my head canon now that Hydaelyn tempered us which is why we cannot disagree with her or hold her accountable and why we keep indulging her cruelty.

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Same. It's both laughable and disturbing how much more EW makes sense if you add in Hydaelyn tempering.

My headcanon is if Zodiark was needed to maintain the aetheric barrier then Hydaelyn was needed to maintain the sundering, so without her the effects will begin to reverse themselves. It may take centuries, but eventually all will return to the way it was. This is still within character for Venat too as her goals were to defeat Metetion and introduce suffering. Now that both those have been achieved there's no reason for things to remain separated.