Dragoons: A Rotation Reborn

On SCoB progression one time, i didnt realize that i wore my PVP set.

is 470 dps at i110 using 110 wep with crafted head,chest,pants, & belt(no IV materia outside guaranteed slots) good? no food/party/pot/mercy stroke

I have a question for DRGs with more experience than me: what is a good gear setup for T9? I ask because while our overall DPS is fine (we're consistently hitting golems after only 4 meteors), I know mine isn't as good as it could be and I know that it's because of my gear and the fact that I have to swap pieces out to get enough accuracy for T9. I average around 480-485 in T8 (no food/pots/Mercy Stroke) but only around 298 in T9.

I've been trying to get the Shiva spear, the HA Choker and the HA Earrings, but RNG hasn't been kind to me on those yet. Should I just keep farming for those? I'm thinking the Shiva spear is the most important because of both weapon damage + accuracy.

EDIT: Should add that I'm i114 with the Liberator, but I typically end up switching that out for my Gae Bolg Atma to get the accuracy I need, because it's either swap that or two left-side pieces. I have solid Poetics on the left side and solid Soldiery on the right + the HA Ring.

Ironworks Choker + Bracelet are excellent pieces to obtain if you're struggling with Accuracy (despite the SS). HA Earrings are very good and I would try farm them if possible.

What's your current weapon?

Yeah, definite get the Choker, Bracelet, or farm for Shiva Weapon if you need to use your Atma weapon to meet accuracy reqs. Switch food out to Lava Toad Legs if need be. Also, a 19 ACC, 31 CRT, 25 DET Novus is the second best novus (only requires x2 DET IVs 100%) if you want accuracy, but also keep some damage.

Thanks for the advice! I'll go for the Bracelet for my next Poetics piece, then, and keep farming Shiva. I've been farming T6 and T7 too but our group only ever seems to see Healing, Casting or Fending gear drop from those (we once got the Fending stuff from T7 twice in a row), so that might take me a while.

Yup, having good downgrade pieces is never bad, but sometimes the drops just aren't with ya.

No kidding, haha. Killed Shiva five more times today, no sign of the spear yet. At least I got the True Ice Bracelet for non-Coil stuff.

Soooo for everyone arround "near" BiS and progressing/clearing 13...

I got the poetics legs last night, and with this, I'm with no SS on gear. That beeing said, I have noticed a little DPS loss on t13. So, I'm not really sure if there is a min SS on gear to things go smooth, or it's just the adaptation/lack of other stats(DET/Crit).

In another subject, how are you guys doing your opening burst on T13? Due to MegaFlare, sometimes it's really hard to flee stuff while, specially, jumping (¬¬).

Actually, I'm with: TT>(IR)>ID>(BB)>Dis>(LS)CT>(LS)>Moving to flak for MegaFlare here >PP>(Jump)

Now here things start to mess. Usually, my rotation from here is TT<(DfD)>VT(SD)>FT(LSweep) but depending on how Megaflare targets me, I can't use DfD or Spineshatter cause I can end up killing someone or myself (180ms here). So DfD and Spineshatter end up after FT, still with BB but without IR.

I'm curious how you guys are managing this egaflare situation on opening burst.

Switch IR and BB around.

Just my £0.002

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Originally Posted by Dunncan

In another subject, how are you guys doing your opening burst on T13?

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I'm doing something like what Yan Dere posted a few pages back:

Heavy Thrust (Blood for Blood + Internal Release) >
Impulse Drive (HQ X-Potion of Strength) >
Disembowel (Leg Sweep + Power Surge) >
Chaos Thrust (Jump) >
Phlebotomize (Spineshatter Dive) >
True Thrust (Dragonfire Dive) >
Vorpal Thrust (Life Surge) >
Full Thrust > (HQ Potent Poisoning Potion)

Ideally. Jump is the slowest lock and this gets it out of the way before you (depending on RNG) have to reposition. The other two, just use good judgment and get them in when you can. T11 is where I got my practice in for using them while already in an AoE (hehe).

Normally I would not push my oGCDs this hard for consistency and aggro reasons, but the first Megaflare just makes it like that.

As for DPS loss on T13... any time you have to run an Earthshaker out is a significant loss, and that's RNG. Kinda tough to tell.

With Stoneskin, Megaflare can't kill you with B4B on. Gear dependent I suppose but I think as long as you have some i120s/i130s left-side you should be fine and can use it without abandon in your opener.

I actually DGAF about B4B in most of T13 as DRG with a decent amount of i130s. Basically the only thing that scares me is final phase Megaflare > tower/nail/whatever explosion, I won't B4B before Megaflares there, not worth the risk.

another week without loot rip

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Originally Posted by rickyguo

another week without loot rip

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/comfort

I saw the spear drop this week!

... on the alt run -ヮ-;;

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Originally Posted by rickyguo

another week without loot rip

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Same here... Healer boots drop #7

I wish Ayvar would update the Stat Weights in Page 1, I had to scroll through 30 pages to check what it was. (It's in page 427 btw)

Yeah I'd like to know the BiS for melded gear.

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Originally Posted by rickyguo

another week without loot rip

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I got the T11 head, haha.

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Originally Posted by Butcherboy

Yeah I'd like to know the BiS for melded gear.

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Descending from highest weight to lowest. These are the ones I'd recommend, but pick depending on your budget as they're extremely expensive.

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/OX4B - If you want to spend 50m, sure!
WD: 58
STR: 637
CRT: 553
DTR: 414
SS: 442
Food: Flint Caviar HQ
Weight: 1042.960

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/P4I3 - Crafted Belt + Helm. Very cost efficient. Better than the one below weight wise.
WD: 58
STR: 651
CRT: 547
DET: 408
SS: 377
Food: Black Truffle HQ
Weight: 1040.730

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/P4HU - Crafted Belt. Most cost efficient by miles. What I'm going for because I'm broke
WD: 58
STR: 658
CRT: 522
DET: 411
SS: 359
Food: Black Truffles HQ
Weight: 1039.322

Ok dervy I like te top choice. So looking at the list , obviously the highlight piece are the once to b use, but looking at the boots I thought the only viable piece that's crafted to be use is the waist. If you don't mind can u list the stat weight for melded vs iron works. Only ask for iron work since I'm not in any raid grp atm. I did the stat weight for ilvl 130 gloves iron vs melded, and I thought the iron works is best.

Don't even need to do the math. The ironworks boots have a higher weight. However. Just because one item has a higher weight over another, it does not necessarily make it the better item in set. Crafted Pieces give more room to use other gear pieces. The reason why the Crafted BiS set uses the boots is all because of the amount of SkillSpeed you can stack using both the Boots and Gloves combined in a set together. There's no point to using either the Boots or the Gloves by themselves.

442 - 359 = 83 * 0.198 = 16.434

You'd need around 50 more DET to make up for the 83 skillspeed gained. 50*0.327 = 16.35. Or, 17 strength.

Pretty strong if you ask me, especially if you have a Ninja in your group who can give you Goad. You'll be doing some serious work over a long period of time.

Ok so basically I need to meld gloves and boots got it. Yeah cause right now the only piece I have that's crafted is my head and gloves but no Materia

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Originally Posted by Dervy

If your skillspeed is below 390, rotate the use of Life Surge between Full Thrust and Chaos Thrust, as it's 50s Cooldown. If it's above this number, only use Life Surge on Full Thrust. Though, if you've had A LOT of practice, then you can use Life Surge with CT + FT at much higher SkillSpeed (I do it with 441 SS)

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I did some math after reading this and was hoping someone could clear this up for me.
Life Surge has a 50 second cooldown so.....
CT = 250 potency (+125 for a LS Crit) => LS is worth 2.5 pps
FT = 360 potency (+180 for a LS Crit) => LS is worth 3.6 pps

So to be really worth using on CT, we'd have to be saving enough time to make LS worth more pps than using it on FT. Assuming a 2.5 GCD (as low as you could expect) and let's say you want to save LS for FT, but after using CT you need to refresh HT and Ph before starting your TTT (this situation would be most favorable to using LS on CT) so you'll be delaying LS by 5 GCD's (12.5s).
So that means Life Surge was used on a 62.5s cooldown and...
FT = 360 potency (+180 for a LS Crit) => LS is worth 2.88 pps.
You would need to sit on LS for >22 seconds to lower the pps to make it less useful of FT than CT.

Maybe I'm number-crunching something wrong, but it looks to me that saving LS for FT will always be worth it in anything resembling a normal rotation. I think alternating LS on Ct + FS might make the rotation feel more fluid, but it looks like a dps loss on paper.

Edit: Just to keep things easier to reference I went back 30 pages and pulled this up

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Originally Posted by Dervy

125 + 180 = 305/2 = 152.5 /50s = 3.05PPS

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I completely see where this math is coming from, and to put mine similarly I'd probably use
(180 + 180)/125s = 2.88PPS, and this is assuming best case scenario for Dervy's math and worst case for mine.
I'm going to set my GCD to 2.5 and run some tests, and also do some extended paper math to try to get some more realistic numbers

Edit#2: I see Dervy responded while I was typing out my first edit :p

You're looking at it from a Skill vs Skill perspective, assuming LS falls on CT constantly every 50s. The falling of CT rotates between CT and FT, therefore you'd need to calculate the average PPS of both of the skills combined.

So really, 180/62.5 = 2.88

180 + 125 = 305/2 = 152.5 /50 = 3.05

You have to remember that the PPS for one of the Full Thrusts would be 180/50 = 3.6 when alternating betwen FT and CT.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

You're looking at it from a Skill vs Skill perspective, assuming LS falls on CT constantly every 50s. The falling of CT rotates between CT and FT, therefore you'd need to calculate the average PPS of both of the skills combined.

So really, 180/62.5 = 2.88

180 + 125 = 305/2 = 152.5 /50 = 3.05

You have to remember that the PPS for one of the Full Thrusts would be 180/50 = 3.6 when alternating betwen FT and CT.

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Yeah, I've got all that just fine. But your 3.05 is on the assumptions that LS is always used immediately as it comes off cooldown, and that it always comes off cooldown immediately prior to CT or FT. This is likely not the reality for every skill speed value between 341 and 390, if any.

And my 2.88 assumes you will always wait 5 GCDs (with 341 SkS) after LS is off cooldown, before you use it for FT, also not always the case, and having any skill speed at all on your character will actually raise the pps >2.88. (Not a huge amount though, 2.46 GCD brings it to ~2.89, while waiting only 4 GCDs would make it 3.0)
The true numbers for both methods lie in between 2.88 and 3.05, and that's what I'm wanting to find. I'm planning on running some tests using both methods and just focusing on how many times LS is used, and how many GCDs I have to hold it for FT on average.

Edit: Not sure if it's good for the theory crafting or not, but I'm considering ignoring the first Life Surge use on each test, since a 50 second cooldown isn't required before using it. So tests where I alternate CT/FT I will still make sure to have an equal number of LS used for each

Makes no difference in PPS if you count it from the first FT, or first CT, providing you're not using any other buffs excluding LS. PPS is an average anyway.

Here's my argument about the timings of LS and how it can be possible to fit in between every SS value up until we reach our breakpoint (which is theoretically higher than 390).

It's not even an assumption that we're able to use LS like how I've suggested it. There's room for it to be used all the way up until 404 Skillspeed with absolutely no latency and clipping issues and LS is used directly in between two skills.


Let's assume that this always won't be the case and there's a +- 0.05 variation on our timing of LS, that's still a maximum upper limit of 400 SS for the most extreme possibility. At 400 SS, we have a GDC of 2.444. The first LS is used in between VP and FT, which are 6 & 7 GDC's off from when we first start the rotation.

(6*2.444)+(7*2.444)/2 = 15.886 +- 0.05. That's our approximation of when we use Life Surge.

15.886+50 = 65.886s +- 0.05 is the total time of the rotation when LS will be next up.

CT is 27 GDCs into the rotation. 27*2.444 = 65.988 - 65.886 = 0.102 +- 0.05.

So even at 400 SS, taking into consideration there's no GDC clipping, LS will be up 0.102s +- 0.05s before our usage of CT. Of course, this is the most extreme case. Let's use the Non-Crafted BiS sets Skillspeed (410 det set), 378 SS.

378 ss = 2.465 GDCs.

(6*2.465)+(7*2.465)/2 =
14.791+17.255=16.023 +- 0.05 + 50 = 66.023
27*2.465 = 66.555 - 66.023 = 0.532 +- 0.05s before CT is up.

The timing is tight, but it works. Providing there's no clipping, latency issues or breaks in the rotation due to fight mechanics (Shiva EX is a perfect example where this rotation isn't as good), LS will be up prior to the usage of LS/CT, always, up until the break point.

Alright, I looked at it some more and did some runs at 2.5 GCD, and read your exposé Dervy, and I'll agree. At 2.5 GCD, starting your LS before the first FT, it will be up every 20th GCD, (50 seconds/2.5 GCD) which will be immediately prior to a CT or FT everytime, up until the break point, which by your use of the term, I'm assuming just means "the skill speed value at which we fit 21 GCD skills in a 50 second window, thus throwing LS out of whack".

I haven't started my runs saving LS for FT yet, but something else did occur to me as food for thought. If the breaking point for Life Surge is 21 GCDs in 50 seconds (50 seconds/21 GCDs = 2.38095GCD) and the game will not display 2.38 seconds until you reach a value of exactly 460 skill speed, does that make all skill speed between 341 and 460 effectively weightless (in a dummy parse scenario), since you will always perform exactly 20 GCDs in any 50 second period of time?

Edit: Back after testing out holding onto Life Surge every time until FT. Conclusion from my dummy runs, for every skill speed value I did between 341 and 410, I had to wait exactly 4 GCDs after LS became available (which as expected, was immediately before CT every time). This puts LS at exactly one use for every normal DRG rotation of 24 GCDs.
So as a final tally, that puts alternating FT/CT at an average of 3.05 pps, and that puts saving for FT at 3.0 pps, with both at 341 SkS.
Differences being that saving for FT rises in PPS with more SkS, becoming more valuable at a GCD of 2.45, which starts somewhere in the 382-386 SkS range, I don't have the exact number. And alternating CT/FT will stay static at 3.05 until you hit that break point, at which point it will drop in value because you'll be forced to save it if it comes off of CD immediately after a CT/FT.
But factor in some latency and I'm guessing that's how you came up with your recommended value of 390 SkS, Dervy? I'm starting to feel like I'm just mirroring whatever testing and conclusions you came to 1 month ago, HAPPY ANNIVERSARY!!! :D:D:D

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Originally Posted by Dervy

I'd like other people to test and see what they think as well and if they do or don't notice any DPS increases.

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Correct me if im wrong, but i believe you guys are neglecting to include HT and diss when trying to calculate PPS, my understanding is that crit adds 50% of the dmg after all of this is added up,
so FT should really be 360*1.15=414*1.1=455.4, so a crit would add 455.4/2=227.7
CT should really be 250*1.15=287.5*1.1=316.25, so a crit would add 316.25/2=158.125

ssooooo, going by the previous idea PPS should be...

FT only: 227.7/60=3.795 PPS
CT+FT: (227.7+158.125)/2/50=3.858 PPS

doesnt really change to much, but you do need to keep bonus's in mind

Well, since we're back on that topic, I felt compelled to do a quick and dirty model (with all the buffs and stuff) it to see how the periodicity affects the potential DPS gains/losses due to cutoff time.

http://i.imgur.com/LFwaBTds.png
(click to see chart)

In theory, using Life Surge every 50 seconds comes out ahead of using Life Surge every 60 seconds for 2-minute dummy parses, 3-minute dummy parses, 4-minute dummy parses, out-of-TP-at-the-low-skillspeed-it'd-take-to-do-this parses, and in the first five minutes is ahead/neutral 2/3 of the time.

Conclusion: It's probably better than the general case would have us believe. You do have to be perfect, though.

are we factoring the selene buff cause that's always going to be up in a raid encounter and the skillbuild buff could ruin the timings at certain skillspeeds

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Originally Posted by HaelseMikiro

But factor in some latency and I'm guessing that's how you came up with your recommended value of 390 SkS, Dervy?

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Precisely. But if you lived in our Montreal data centers, you might be able to do this at 400ss :D. Most players average around 50-120ms (NA/EU) so it'll be around 390. I guess NA players might be able to do this at 395ss, but it'll be risky.

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Originally Posted by CesarLongsword

Correct me if im wrong, but i believe you guys are neglecting to include HT and diss when trying to calculate PPS, my understanding is that crit adds 50% of the dmg after all of this is added up,
so FT should really be 360*1.15=414*1.1=455.4, so a crit would add 455.4/2=227.7
CT should really be 250*1.15=287.5*1.1=316.25, so a crit would add 316.25/2=158.125

ssooooo, going by the previous idea PPS should be...

FT only: 227.7/60=3.795 PPS
CT+FT: (227.7+158.125)/2/50=3.858 PPS

doesnt really change to much, but you do need to keep bonus's in mind

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The differences are much larger when you take into consideration HT + ID, plus I wanted to show it in the most basic environment... And it was like 5am my time :P

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Originally Posted by SunnyHirose

Well, since we're back on that topic, I felt compelled to do a quick and dirty model (with all the buffs and stuff) it to see how the periodicity affects the potential DPS gains/losses due to cutoff time.

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I really like that graph.

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Originally Posted by rickyguo

are we factoring the selene buff cause that's always going to be up in a raid encounter and the skillbuild buff could ruin the timings at certain skillspeeds

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Nope. But let's do the math now.

If your SCH uses Fey Glow right at the start of the encounter, that's 30s of x1.3 SS. The buff will last up until the second ID, 13 GDCs in. 14 GDCs later is when the CT will be up where we'll be using LS.

390*1.3 = 507 = 2.342
390 = 2.453

13 * 2.34 = 30.446/2 = 15.223 +50 = 65.223 +- 0.05.

13*2.342 = 30.446
14*2.453 = 34.342

= 64.788 - 65.223 = -0.435 = GDC clipping assuming Selene is used right at the start of the encounter.

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If you're using Selene + Fey Glow, do not FT/CT rotate. The PPS increase of using Selene and holding LS is much higher than not using it. After a certain amount of time in the encounter, you may be able to do a CT/LS rotate, but I cannot be bothered to calculate it as it'll take forever to do so.

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Originally Posted by rickyguo

are we factoring the selene buff cause that's always going to be up in a raid encounter and the skillbuild buff could ruin the timings at certain skillspeeds

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^ yes this, i have pretty much abandon alternating CT+FT on turns with selene due to this

Selene will mess it up for sure.

I personally consider it impractical, but it's fun to think about! (And it lets you cheat on the most popular forms of dummy testing, mufufu~)

Parsed 641 DPS on T8, iLevel 121 + Augmented Ironworks Spear, no Selene T_T

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Originally Posted by Daweism

Parsed 641 DPS on T8, iLevel 121 + Augmented Ironworks Spear, no Selene T_T

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you mean that place with the boss that just stands there that has automatic echo and party buff? lol

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Originally Posted by Kimura410

you mean that place with the boss that just stands there that has automatic echo and party buff? lol

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lol nice 1, i wonder how much i can get in t8 with i123 lol

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Originally Posted by Kimura410

you mean that place with the boss that just stands there that has automatic echo and party buff? lol

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Yes, precisely.

Is GB Novus good enough to start t10 with? Haven't had much luck with getting the shiva spear.. and T9 farm is long shot for the time being..

I cleared T10 and T11 with Novus for two weeks.

(I remember you! You tanked my first SV!)

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Originally Posted by SunnyHirose

I cleared T10 and T11 with Novus for two weeks.

(I remember you! You tanked my first SV!)

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Haha, hopefully it was memorable in a good way xD

I figured it would be OK, I'm pretty solid on rotation and such.. I just have bad memories of progressing on t9 with i95 allagan claws.. Lol.. Took me so long to beat t9 I got 110 weapons on every class now >.<

how much of a PPS decrease is HT PH IDC/TTT compared to HT IDC/TTT PH?

just wonder if its worth it to shift to HT PH/PH HT rotation when you're forced to disconnect and you need to refresh HT and PH roughly at the same time, or if it's better to just drop PH and keep doing your rotation as you would, reapplying it halfway into HT's buff (ie HT IDC/TTT PH)

edit: with 341 skillspeed ideally, up to 370