#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

What balance? There is no "balance" between tanks and healers, they are entirely different roles. When we talk about balancing DPS it is only within a given role, healers aren't competing with tanks for damage output, they're competing with other healers.

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Tanks aren't DPS either. So why are they allowed to do damage while healers aren't?

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

Tanks aren't DPS. So why are they allowed to do damage while healers aren't?

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At this point I have to question whether or not you're playing the same game as the rest of us.
Healers have been doing damage since ARR, they're doing damage right now. Whether that damage is 4k lower on average than the tanks or the exact same is irrelevant, you're still doing damage and encounters are balanced around that damage contribution, increase the contribution and you've just increased how much damage is needed to not wipe on enrage.

And no, tanks aren't DPS, that's why they're doing 10K less than even the worst actual DPS job.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

At this point I have to question whether or not you're playing the same game as the rest of us.
Healers have been doing damage since ARR, they're doing damage right now. Whether that damage is 4k lower on average than the tanks or the exact same is irrelevant, you're still doing damage and encounters are balanced around that damage contribution, increase the contribution and you've just increased how much damage is needed to not wipe on enrage.

And no, tanks aren't DPS, that's why they're doing 10K less than even the worst actual DPS job.

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Well, if none of the DPS matters, then why don't tanks just spam Shield Lob, Tomahawk, Unmend or Lightning Shot, it does damage, and even does more enmity than their combo letting them do their job of tanking even better than their rotation.

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

Well, if none of the DPS matters, then why don't tanks just spam Shield Lob, Tomahawk, Unmend or Lightning Shot, it does damage, and even does more enmity than their combo letting them do their job of tanking even better than their rotation.

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Because pressing one button as the majority of your 'rotation' is boring as hell? Because, like Healing, 'having enough Emnity to keep the enemy hitting the Tank' is binary, in that you either have enough (and more is useless) or you don't (and it quickly becomes a problem)?

Let's get really crazy. WHM next expansion can deal 600p per Glare3 cast, and 1000p per Glare4 cast. Misery is now 2400p. What would this solve about WHM gameplay? Stuff wouldn't die any faster, because it's going to be developed, with its HP scaled in accordance with WHM being able to slam 600p out per GCD. All it'll have done is made WHM deal bigger numbers, without addressing the issue that how the numbers are achieved is the problem, not their size.

Take another example, this time in reverse. As a WAR, you press 123 combo for the buff, or 124 for gauge generation. But they're boring, and Fell Cleave is fun, right? So, what if we remove those combos, and just press Fell Cleave in their place? Well, now Fell Cleave feels even more lame than it already does (due to how often it's already used in the rotation), causing it to feel less special/cool. Enemy HP is scaled with that FC-centric rotation in mind, so you're not killing anything any faster. All it'd have done, is make the rotation less interesting, and made a fan-favourite action feel mundane

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Because pressing one button as the majority of your 'rotation' is boring as hell? Because, like Healing, 'having enough Emnity to keep the enemy hitting the Tank' is binary, in that you either have enough (and more is useless) or you don't (and it quickly becomes a problem)?

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The developers don't think it's a problem. The developers also seem to think that non-DPS roles shouldn't do damage. So what would be the problem if they removed tank's combos and ogcd attacks? And people responding to me also don't think non-DPS damage isn't something that should be considered.

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

The developers don't think it's a problem. The developers also seem to think that non-DPS roles shouldn't do damage. So what would be the problem if they removed tank's combos and ogcd attacks? And people responding to me also don't think non-DPS damage isn't something that should be considered.

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Now you're just engaging in sophistry.

Nobody ever said DPS in general doesn't matter. Neither we nor the developers. The devs literally tune the enrage timer of fights so that it can't be beating unless tanks and healers contribute as well.
What doesn't matter is comparing the DPS of one role to another.

Every role is expected to contribute damage in a fight, the expected amount however is different.
Tanks aren't expected to do the 38-46k DPS that a Viper can do, because they literally can't. They are however expected to contribute whatever their in-built damage rotation allows for.
Just like healers are expected to contribute damage through their DoT, their burst cooldown and their filler attack spell.
The expected amount is simply lower than that of actual DPS jobs and tanks.

Which is also why those roles aren't balanced against each other, they are not competing with each other and do not have the same expected damage output.
If you increased the healer's damage output to be the same as that of tanks you still wouldn't be competing with that role, you would be competing with the output of other healers and boss HP would be increased to account for that.

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Originally Posted by MisterNublet

Because there is zero content in the game before savage (and arguably some extremes) that teaches healers how to play their role appropriately. Such as how to not be a healbot, planning out heals/mitigation, how to press their (few) dps tools.

M11s is a reality check for most healbots. They are learning they can't just afk through savage and get a clear.

Here's the fun part. Once those healbot players adjust and start getting better at the game, planning out mits and heals and figuring out that their dps rotation is pressing 1 button >80% of the time, they understand that the healer gameplay absolutely massively sucks arse and switch to dps or tank instead.

Guess who fills those newly vacant spots? Fresh healbots.

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This is basically why healers are always in the spot of “if healers are so easy why do savage healers suck”

Because the design of healers makes it so the only people that enjoy them suck at them because high level healer gameplay actively makes competant people not want to play healer

If non healers don’t want heal bots in higher tier savage fights then they should be encouraging healer diversification, to make competant people actually WANT to play healer

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Now you're just engaging in sophistry.

Nobody ever said DPS in general doesn't matter. Neither we nor the developers. The devs literally tune the enrage timer of fights so that it can't be beating unless tanks and healers contribute as well.
What doesn't matter is comparing the DPS of one role to another.

Every role is expected to contribute damage in a fight, the expected amount however is different.
Tanks aren't expected to do the 38-46k DPS that a Viper can do, because they literally can't. They are however expected to contribute whatever their in-built damage rotation allows for.
Just like healers are expected to contribute damage through their DoT, their burst cooldown and their filler attack spell.
The expected amount is simply lower than that of actual DPS jobs and tanks.

Which is also why those roles aren't balanced against each other, they are not competing with each other and do not have the same expected damage output.
If you increased the healer's damage output to be the same as that of tanks you still wouldn't be competing with that role, you would be competing with the output of other healers and boss HP would be increased to account for that.

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My argument is that non-DPS roles should be comparable to non-DPS roles. Hence, Tanks and Healers. Neither is a DPS.
Though doing some basic testing, I did find some things... Running Deltascape 3 (O3), with different job to see how quickly they beat them as it's a relatively simple fight with little downtime making it a good training dummy... And eliminating the effects of gear mostly, I picked up the DT artifact sets and used Resilient accessories and a Vanguard ring on all the Jobs to get everything to roughly the same point.

WHM with the recent addition of starting with full lilies, including a Blood Lily for Afflatus Misery, are basically just slightly behind PLD, probably the lowest damaging tank, in damage output on the short term. It's likely going to fall off as you get relegated to mostly just spamming Glare while PLD gets to do their full rotation constantly. To stay the same, Glare Spam and the 3 Glare 4's would need to outdamage the entire Confetior combo by a decent margin since it's a 2m CD vs a 1m CD.

Also trying SCH, it has as huge of a gap to Tanks and Tanks do to DPS.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

What doesn't matter is comparing the DPS of one role to another.

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The DPS itself might not matter, but the total value should definitely matter.

If you have one role that is able to provide all the direct raid sustain needs of a given fight and yet also provides immensely greater total indirect raid sustain (via mitigating single-target attacks through itself) and significantly more damage all atop that... that's not great.

Think it is somewhat notable Healer was usually the first support to be replaced by a dps for farming some group content in EW since that results in more dps than replacing a tank with one.
1T3D parties can be faster for dungeons for the same reason too, especially with Tank survivability being as high as it is.

If healer dpsing is going to be stay as simple as it is right now there's really no reason for them to hit as hard as a tank though, ShB had this problem and tank dps rotations really felt like a lot of effort for very little damage because of that.