What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Or she could have just used yknow, the echo, that huge plot relevant thing that we’re specifically told there can be used to show others memories.

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I also find it odd that we apparently spoke our recollection rather than they all just use the echo to see our memories and we see what that looks like from the outside perspective for a change. Takes like 2 seconds then we continue the conversation. Nah let's talk and fade to black.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Or she could have just used yknow, the echo, that huge plot relevant thing that we’re specifically told there can be used to show others memories.

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The echo? That thing unfortunately fell through a plot hole and was never seen again.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

I also find it odd that we apparently spoke our recollection rather than they all just use the echo to see our memories and we see what that looks like from the outside perspective for a change. Takes like 2 seconds then we continue the conversation. Nah let's talk and fade to black.

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Every day I think about this expansion it somehow manages to fall apart even more.

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

The echo? That thing unfortunately fell through a plot hole and was never seen again.

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*uses echo to show it falling*
*sad music plays*

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Originally Posted by Xirean

I also find it odd that we apparently spoke our recollection rather than they all just use the echo to see our memories and we see what that looks like from the outside perspective for a change. Takes like 2 seconds then we continue the conversation. Nah let's talk and fade to black.

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Then how would they showcase their animated steaming tea that goes cold because we are talking so long that everyone has forgotten to drink it?

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Originally Posted by Xirean

I also find it odd that we apparently spoke our recollection rather than they all just use the echo to see our memories and we see what that looks like from the outside perspective for a change. Takes like 2 seconds then we continue the conversation. Nah let's talk and fade to black.

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Emet-Selch: This is preposterous! I would never become a megalomaniacal murderer like that!
Hythlodaeus: Perhaps we should view his/her/their memories firsthand?
Emet-Selch: Why would I want to do that?

Seriously though, I was disappointed that we went to Elpis and didn't get any training on how to further control the Echo. How cool would it be if we were able to use it on a more conscious basis?

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Originally Posted by PawPaw

Then how would they showcase their animated steaming tea that goes cold because we are talking so long that everyone has forgotten to drink it?

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Oof, fair. That would indeed be a tragic loss.

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Originally Posted by AnaviAnael

Emet-Selch: This is preposterous! I would never become a megalomaniacal murderer like that!
Hythlodaeus: Perhaps we should view his/her/their memories firsthand?
Emet-Selch: Why would I want to do that?

Seriously though, I was disappointed that we went to Elpis and didn't get any training on how to further control the Echo. How cool would it be if we were able to use it on a more conscious basis?

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The one thing I've been wanting since ARR. "Can someone tell me how to control this damn thing? I'm tired of passing out randomly!"

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Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

So uh, why did Venat choose to try and grab Meteion with just her bare hand when she was chasing after her on Argos, when she could just generate a whip and yoink her from far away? Or hell, she could've just conjured her sword and slashed her, seeing as how she had already gotten within inches of her. By that point she could've easily hit her with her sword.

Or better yet, just blast her with magic.

Literally anything else besides her bare bloody hands.

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Personally, I couldn't understand why there was this gaping hole standing open long enough for 2 people to ride on dogs from below and across the platform but it never occurred to Emet-Selch to grab Hythlo, snap to conjure his flying horse and exit the same way.

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Originally Posted by PawPaw

Personally, I couldn't understand why there was this gaping hole standing open long enough for 2 people to ride on dogs from below and across the platform but it never occurred to Emet-Selch to grab Hythlo, snap to conjure his flying horse and exit the same way.

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Or.....teleport. Which they do constantly throughout that dungeon....

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Originally Posted by Xirean

Or.....teleport. Which they do constantly throughout that dungeon....

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IIRC there was some sort of dampening magic in the facility that rendered everyone besides Hermes weaker hence why they couldn't just teleport out. I think. I would have to go back and verify this again.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

Or.....teleport. Which they do constantly throughout that dungeon....

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Yeah, lol. There's time for a monologue, a sad wave and a smile but no time to gtfo.

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Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

IIRC there was some sort of dampening magic in the facility that rendered everyone besides Hermes weaker hence why they couldn't just teleport out. I think. I would have to go back and verify this again.

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I think you're correct, I vaguely remember something about them not being at peak strength in there but I can't remember the reason for it. Still, if they could use their powers enough to beat all of those monsters and Hermes as well as summon familiars, I'm sure Emet could have managed something. I guess it just doesn't make for good drama though.

Late to the party, but the sacrifices were not a factor for Venat, in fact, she consumed the souls of her own followers to become Hydaelyn which is more than what Zodiark did. According to the LL Q&A, her motivations were a combination of believing the Ancients would always be their own downfall and believing them incapable of defeating Meteion without the ability to manipulate dynamis. The problem is that, much like Hermes, these were solvable problems had she bothered to discuss her concerns. Instead, she formed a rebellion, lead a coup, usurped Zodiark as the 'will of the star', and perpetrated a cultural genocide so none but those who escaped the sundering could oppose her.

Additionally, this was all done with no guarantee of success as by the time the she meets the WoL we have no idea what we're up against or how to stop it, so her choice becomes a gamble of astronomical proportions (not to mention putting Etheirys at risk of other world ending fates). The argument that she must maintain the time loop not only removes all agency of her character, but of everyone else as well. You can't excuse Venat for 'playing the part' and still claim that everyone else had free will. Going back to one of Ardbert's iconic lines, "We did everything right, everything that was asked of us, and still—still it came to this!" Exactly. Given that Venat knew how the unsundered would react to the sundering also makes her an accomplice to every rejoining. The fact that we have no evidence she was willing or able to assist the shards, including her backup plan being to abandon them entirely, is also particularly damning and makes them seem to be little more than collateral damage to her goal.

Given all these factors, the single only time you can express anything negative to Venat is on the boat where you can say you can't trust her. This is long before Elpis. Even then, you have Krile so enchanted by Hydaelyn she offers up her body to her while we're still supposed to be in skepticism mode knowing she's a primal but not what her intentions are. There is also a noticeable shift in everything that is a result of the sundering being attributed to the Final Days and everything that is a result of Zodiark being attributed to Hydaelyn. Y'shtola even says in Thavnair (after the moon so the Scions knew better) that Hydaelyn forestalled the Final Days by sundering Zodiark, none of which is true. What I found particularly shocking is the sundering made people exponentially more susceptible to the Song of Oblivion not only in terms of chain reactions forming, but in the destruction of souls. It's ironic that there's so much debate surrounding the unmaking of soulless creations in Elpis, but Venat is consistently shown to have no care when it comes to people's souls.

Contrast this with Emet, who you are only ever able to address as a hostile entity throughout 5.0. He is also routinely condemned by the Scions regardless of whether or not they sympathize with his motivations. As examples, Y'shtola calls him out for murdering millions and Alphinaud says (see image), but conveniently no one has a negative word for Venat about anything she's done, on the contrary, her choices are defended and excused while the WoL's dialog options towards her are wholly positive. This also reflects poorly on the Scions because it makes them appear hypocritical and self-serving. There's a reason why many felt EW was the epitome of "rules for thee, but not for me".

https://i.imgur.com/zIOeuPv.jpg

This next part is subjective, but I did not find anything sympathetic or relatable about Venat. Emet wanting to right the wrong of the sundering was understandable. Venat having potentially life saving information and withholding it was abhorrent to me. Her deciding on behalf of all of Etheirys that she knew best based on unfounded beliefs and flawed logic I found unconscionable. Quoting Brinne: "The fury of one friend in particular over the montage sequence was based around how it was contorting itself to uplift the struggles of Venat as a tragic individual, asking us to focus on her perspective and how much the Sundering was hurting her, and used everyone she had killed and subjected to suffering as narrative accessories for her noble torment." I felt the same and found it repugnant.

When people say they don't understand why someone would hate Venat, I likewise can't understand why anyone would like her. As far as I'm concerned, she is one of the two primary antagonists in the history of the world's lore next to Hermes. The people of Etheirys, both unsundered and sundered, were her victims in a multitude of ways. I'm also baffled why anyone when faced with the person who ended their original existence would be trusting because this time she's on your side. It ignores that Venat had no loyalty to anyone or anything but her ideals and would've acted against the WoL & Scions if it would have furthered her goal.

I feel like the Echo is something that they simply cannot allow us to consciously utilize because it's a potentially "storybreaking" power because of how it trivializes the acquisition of information when many plots shoulder on gaining knowledge of a situation; particularly with its ability to read environmental aether to see events that have happened even years prior.

It already has significantly altered how events unfolded on multiple occasions by giving us knowledge no others would've had access to but at the same time has not triggered in situations where it would've been completely game-changing. The whole Crystal Braves plot could've fallen to pieces if it had ever decided to trigger around someone who was in on the scheme as an obvious example.

Being able to actively control it would just raise constant questions of "Why not just use the Echo?" (Which was already discussed at length as far as how it makes a lot of the Elpis plot seem silly).

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Late to the party, but the sacrifices were not a factor for Venat, in fact, she consumed the souls of her own followers to become Hydaelyn which is more than what Zodiark did. According to the LL Q&A, her motivations were a combination of believing the Ancients would always be their own downfall and believing them incapable of defeating Meteion without the ability to manipulate dynamis. The problem is that, much like Hermes, these were solvable problems had she bothered to discuss her concerns. Instead, she formed a rebellion, lead a coup, usurped Zodiark as the 'will of the star', and perpetrated a cultural genocide so none but those who escaped the sundering could oppose her.

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I think the idea that they would always be their own undoing might be a bit more credible than you might think.

I think I've said this before, but the one credible indictment of Ancient society is that it could produce people like Hermes and Venat. It's highly probable that they wouldn't be the first people who saw themselves fit to judge the entire culture over deep, fundamental ideological differences. And considering those two had the means to destroy the world- one of which wasn't even that high up on the social ladder yet- it does seem less like a contrivance and more like an inevitability that some fuckhead would decide to do it again in the future. It would've taken a fundamental restructuring of Ancient society to stop another Hermes, and for all we know, that might've just made it more likely for another Venat to rise up and garner support, which they likely couldn't have done anything about.

That's why I liken Venat's actions to an act of ruthless utilitarian calculus. There are plenty of scenarios in which they could've resulted in better outcomes than had she not done anything, as heinous as they were.

That just ends up making Venat an even bigger hypocrite though, and doesn't negate the rest of your post.

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Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

I think the idea that they would always be their own undoing might be a bit more credible than you might think.

I think I've said this before, but the one credible indictment of Ancient society is that it could produce people like Hermes and Venat. It's highly probable that they wouldn't be the first people who saw themselves fit to judge the entire culture over deep, fundamental ideological differences. And considering those two had the means to destroy the world- one of which wasn't even that high up on the social ladder yet- it does seem less like a contrivance and more like an inevitability that some fuckhead would decide to do it again in the future. It would've taken a fundamental restructuring of Ancient society to stop another Hermes, and for all we know, that might've just made it more likely for another Venat to rise up and garner support, which they likely couldn't have done anything about.

That's why I liken Venat's actions to an act of ruthless utilitarian calculus. There are plenty of scenarios in which they could've resulted in better outcomes than had she not done anything, as heinous as they were.

That just ends up making Venat an even bigger hypocrite though, and doesn't negate the rest of your post.

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Here’s my thinking though. Let’s say they would eventually prove to be their own undoing or even went the way of the plenty. So what? They’ve lived for what seems to be hundreds of thousands of years. If they did all die off eventually the planet would give birth to new life. That’s why Meteion and Hermes’ thinking is flawed though. You can’t go into life thinking well they’re just going to die anyways. Every single civilization will fall at some point. But that’s not what matters at all. Because then we can just apply the same logic to the sundered and what they should all die too? I really don’t think the devs thought about their themes and messages so much tbh. Especially with just how much they conflict with previous ff games’ themes.

The Ancient's society was already built in such a way as to manage the likes of Venat and Hermes. It just so happens that the writers decided to stack numerous strange plot devices on top of each other as well as ridding numerous characters of any agency or sensible behaviour in order to brute force through a very specific outcome.

Shadowbringers made it clear that the Ancient world was built around debate and research for the benefit of all. Much of Endwalker further reinforced that and we're meant to just accept that a pair of extremists decided to go on a genocidal rampage but that it's supposedly a 'good' thing despite the game clearly outlining genocide as a red line that could never be justified elsewhere even with far more sympathetic baggage behind such events.

If nothing else, if the writers didn't want people to think about this sort of thing then perhaps they shouldn't have tried to moralise literally every other major event in the story...

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Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

I think I've said this before, but the one credible indictment of Ancient society is that it could produce people like Hermes and Venat.

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This wasn't Venat's fear though. She specifically was afraid Etheirys would go the way of The Plenty, which is the antithesis of another subversive agent as they had achieved "perfect unity".

It's also not up to her to take executive action for the entire star to prevent possible future outcomes. The sundering left Etheirys open to fall to any one of the other stars' fates in Ultima Thule that were less likely to occur in the unsundered world. Plus, the goal of every civilization is to better itself. The notes within The Plenty even describe themselves as having once been similar to the sundered. At most she kicked the can down the road for one possibility while opening the door for numerous others, in fact, quoting Veloran: "8UC is basically a complete 'bad end' for Venat right down to people again trying to return to the past over going forward in the future (and by his very nature G'raha is the biggest thematic walking contradiction in the entire universe) and despite the short story existing to try and suggest some hopeful future for it, the storyline of Endwalker would imply that it's completely doomed."

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Here’s my thinking though. Let’s say they would eventually prove to be their own undoing or even went the way of the plenty. So what? They’ve lived for what seems to be hundreds of thousands of years. If they did all die off eventually the planet would give birth to new life. That’s why Meteion and Hermes’ thinking is flawed though. You can’t go into life thinking well they’re just going to die anyways. Every single civilization will fall at some point. But that’s not what matters at all. Because then we can just apply the same logic to the sundered and what they should all die too? I really don’t think the devs thought about their themes and messages so much tbh. Especially with just how much they conflict with previous ff games’ themes.

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Civilizational fuck ups rarely result in the end of the world though, and the Ancients were uniquely qualified to do that. Heck, they created something that could literally end the universe, which is truly unique to them, even including what we saw in Ultima Thule. It wasn't a matter of "these guys will eventually die," it was "these guys will eventually die and could take quite literally everything in existence along with them."

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Originally Posted by Theodric

The Ancient's society was already built in such a way as to manage the likes of Venat and Hermes. It just so happens that the writers decided to stack numerous strange plot devices on top of each other as well as ridding numerous characters of any agency or sensible behaviour in order to brute force through a very specific outcome.

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It was Shadowbringers that showed us that all it took to end the world was 14 Ancients in a trench coat (or however many people were in Venat's faction). Nothing about their society suggested that they could do anything to stop that.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

This wasn't Venat's fear though. She specifically was afraid Etheirys would go the way of The Plenty, which is the antithesis of another subversive agent as they had achieved "perfect unity".

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That just means she was a symptom of the problem she was trying to solve. That's precisely what makes her a hypocrite.

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Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

Civilizational fuck ups rarely result in the end of the world though, and the Ancients were uniquely qualified to do that.

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It happened in the 8UC though with black rose. So it seems very possible. Look at the war of the magi as well. Major catastrophic events that could have or did potentially end the world. It really isn’t as rare as you might think, especially in a world where magic exists.

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Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

Civilizational fuck ups rarely result in the end of the world though, and the Ancients were uniquely qualified to do that. Heck, they created something that could literally end the universe, which is truly unique to them, even including what we saw in Ultima Thule.

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We're just talking about technical means and the specifics of this scenario, IMO. Meteion as a creation does not require vast amounts of aether - quite the opposite. There is, in theory, nothing preventing the sundered from creating something very similar to her; the Allagans had all manner of sophisticated devices, achieved in some cases through reverse-engineering Omega, as did the Mhachi. Already Y'shtola is putting familiars through the Void - it would not take a great leap for an intepid space explorer to stick something like an entelechy into space. The only reason Meteion posed a particular issue is because of how elusive dynamis is and because Hermes allowed her to escape. Both Hermes and Venat could've prevented all this. All the ingredients for this plot are equally feasible in the sundered world... including the presence of individuals who act out of spite, like Yotsuyu or Amon, or those with the willingness to sacrifice mankind on the altar of their superior judgement, like Thordan, Ilberd, Vauthry, Zenos, etc. So if we're going to wipe out one world on a "pre-crime" basis, you could do the same to the sundered world for similar reasons.

All this discussion just leaves me wishing that the Sundering had genuinely just been an act of impulsive fear like the Ascians believed it to be, not this moral and ideological mess of a long game that feels like the writers intended for people to just not think about given how little sense it makes under deeper scrutiny.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

It happened in the 8UC though with black rose. So it seems very possible. Look at the war of the magi as well. Major catastrophic events that could have or did potentially end the world. It really isn’t as rare as you might think, especially in a world where magic exists.

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Calamities always happened with heavy input from the Ascians. While others might eventually be able to cause calamities of that scale, the Ascians are, at this point in time, the only ones with enough awareness of the world's metaphysics to enable that kind of destruction, magic or no.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

We're just talking about technical means and the specifics of this scenario, IMO. Meteion as a creation does not require vast amounts of aether - quite the opposite. There is, in theory, nothing preventing the sundered from creating something very similar to her; the Allagans had all manner of sophisticated devices, achieved in some cases through reverse-engineering Omega, as did the Mhachi. Already Y'shtola is putting familiars through the Void - it would not take a great leap for an intepid space explorer to stick something like an entelechy into space. The only reason Meteion posed a particular issue is because of how elusive dynamis is and because Hermes allowed her to escape. Both Hermes and Venat could've prevented all this. All the ingredients for this plot are equally feasible in the sundered world... including the presence of individuals who act out of spite, like Yotsuyu or Amon, or those with the willingness to sacrifice mankind on the altar of their superior judgement, like Thordan, Ilberd, Vauthry, Zenos, etc. So if we're going to wipe out one world on a "pre-crime" basis, you could do the same to the sundered world for similar reasons.

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Nobody in the sundered world has nigh-unlimited reality-warping powers. Only Alexander, pretty much the strongest of all primals of sundered creation, had the power necessary to actually destroy the world given enough time. And the ability to create such a thing still directly came from the Ascians.

It always leads back to them. It's always their fault. And Venat's for even leaving them alive to begin with.

Not that I think the Sundering was justified anyways. I don't subscribe to a utilitarian framework. But to anyone in this thread that does, Venat is your L, not mine.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

All this discussion just leaves me wishing that the Sundering had genuinely just been an act of impulsive fear like the Ascians believed it to be, not this moral and ideological mess of a long game that feels like the writers intended for people to just not think about given how little sense it makes under deeper scrutiny.

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Yeah the story would be a lot better off if it was.

It's not too late to retcon it, Ishikawa-san. Please.

Again: it does not take "reality-warping powers" to create this situation. Meteion is not a creation which takes vast amounts of aether. The design feature which is relevant here is being an emotion sponge. Hermes just happened to be the first to do so, while violating the rules the ancients had set out to have their creations examined first before releasing them, and he assigned her the wrong question, which Emet points out very quickly after questioning him. So not sure where this argument is coming from or why the sundered would be incapable of reproducing a scenario like this.

Until I've written up my giant dissertation of feelings and opinions regarding everything I found lacking or just flat out lazy in Endwalker, I'll be providing snippets of my internal thought process - be it related to current discussions or not.

Today's episode is: Hermes and Meteion aren't bad characters, but they - like so much else in EW - suffered from poor pacing and bad or twisted writing.

I'm not inclined to think Ishikawa would normally write characters like them this badly, if she was given proper time. She's made some incredibly poignant characters in the past that, regardless of their morality, go on to be favored by many due to the character simply being written incredibly well and explored thoroughly. I feel like had Yoshida not been desperate to end this 10-year story to the point of cutting an entire other expansion and forcing constant rewrites and condensing, that they would have shined much more at the end.

My personal opinion: Hermes isn't a sociopath, and I especially think interviews where they've stated he's some incorrigible evil are incredibly tone-deaf to what was presented to us. Which, and again - some may not agree, that's fine, I speak from my own experience - is that Hermes was an autistic man with severe depression, suffering from the crushing weight of existentialism and feelings of isolation due to how few seemed to share in the pains he personally felt. As someone on the autism spectrum also suffering from severe depression more days than not, I felt Hermes' actions were guided not by a sociopathic desire to burn it all, but the misguided thoughts which arose from his pain and loneliness, made all the worse once delivered Meteion's grim tidings from other worlds.

This of course doesn't excuse any actions he took, and never will. But what they're trying to state he was, and what he actually seemed to be, are two separate things.

Note I've said Hermes. Not Fandaniel. The Fandaniel we are met with, the fragmented parts of Hermes' original soul, can certainly be considered on the sociopathic scale. I still don't feel it is Hermes who is the sociopath in this case, however, and more so Amon, who - while a shard of Hermes that was eventually introduced back into the memories of Hermes' time as Fandaniel - was not actually the Hermes we meet in Elpis. There is enough memory and shards of him left to form that connection, but ultimately our Fandaniel is more Amon driven insane by his own life experiences coupled with the memories of Fandaniel provided to him when he's raised up into the seat of the Convocation.

All of this, of course, gets muddied to hell and back due to the incredibly poor pacing of the story once we get to Elpis. We're barely given any actual time with Hermes beyond a few important cutscenes to show how he as a person feels in this perfect world, how he feels broken and different because he doesn't feel or act like the others (what he perceives as the norm). We barely get any time to see how he interacts with others in Elpis outside of our little group, we barely even get to see much of his time interacting with Meteion. Had we more time with him, more opportunity to see his day to day and his own inner workings outside of that, even more Echo visions maybe, I feel a clearer picture of Hermes would have been painted.

Instead, like so much else, we got a butchered and tone-deaf version of a potentially good character who ultimately suffered from the pacing and lack of time to properly write him out. And then on top of it, what we're presented in Elpis is a far cry from the Fandaniel we associate with in the present day, and I think referring not to Fandaniel, but Hermes as the evil one is incredibly icky on the part of Yoshida and Ishikawa. It may not have been Ishikawa's intention to write Hermes akin to an autistic man suffering from depression (especially given the subject of mental health and disorders is still incredibly poor in Japan right now), but that's sure what it came off as. His subsequent treatment in the story and portrayal left an incredibly bad taste in my mouth, more so when so many seem to read him as just an insane sociopath at the end of the day.

He wasn't given the time or care deserved for a story like that. And I'll die mad about it.

I'll talk about Meteion some time later, but she ultimately suffers from similar issues as Hermes.

I don't understand how Etheirys wouldn't be capable of killing itself without the ascians when plenty of other planets did. Even Alphanaud says they're all going to be "dust" some day.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

All this discussion just leaves me wishing that the Sundering had genuinely just been an act of impulsive fear like the Ascians believed it to be, not this moral and ideological mess of a long game that feels like the writers intended for people to just not think about given how little sense it makes under deeper scrutiny.

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Yep. They were already willing to make Venat's actions hasty and without any real attempt to explore other possibilities. Any attempt to delay the act itself was entirely hidden behind false narratives such as 'needing' to keep Zodiark's power in check.

Having the Sundering be either an accident or something Venat came to regret would have let her come out of it all much better than by making it a deliberate act that she resorted to because traumatised people didn't react the 'right way' to the Final Days.

It just makes no sense. If Merlwyb started killing people who didn't react properly to the Final Days striking Limsa, the Scions would stop or kill her. As they have shown to be each and every time random civilians were cut down by an antagonist.

...and if nothing else, the development team can't be oblivious to all the issues in the real world lately. After increasingly divisive rhetoric where differences in opinion are met with death threats over both minor and major issues, Endwalker's narrative and solution to societal disagreement isn't the wholesome, uplifting statement it gaslights people into believing it to be.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

The one thing I've been wanting since ARR. "Can someone tell me how to control this damn thing? I'm tired of passing out randomly!"

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Back in 1.0, there were points where the game would ask you, "Use the power of the Echo?" [Yes/No] in order to progress in the plot. They decided to do away with that when 2.0 launched. They could always nerf the sundered version of it by having the aether conditions be just right for the Echo to be used.

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Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa

snip.

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Fandaniel, our Fandaniel, is a character I wish we'd spent more time with and I feel like maybe we were supposed to but it didn't happen in the version of the game we got. Hermes definitely suffers from pacing issues that make his framing confusing but at least he gets a whole zone dedicated to him.

Fandaniel we don't get to see much of, or really learn about his despair. We are told he has despair but we don't SEE it much outside subtle animation and facial expressions (and the fact that a happy person probably wouldn't want to destroy the world.) For how important he is to the events of this expansion, his screen time feels limited. Not to mention that he's Amon, a character that has existed in lore since ARR. Fandaniel should have had a whole zone devoted to him too, and it should have been the moon. There is even an Allagan vessel up there and everything. It would have made the time between Anima and Zodiark feel less empty.

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Originally Posted by Ayuhra

Fandaniel, our Fandaniel, is a character I wish we'd spent more time with and I feel like maybe we were supposed to but it didn't happen in the version of the game we got. Hermes definitely suffers from pacing issues that make his framing confusing but at least he gets a whole zone dedicated to him.

Fandaniel we don't get to see much of, or really learn about his despair. We are told he has despair but we don't SEE it much outside subtle animation and facial expressions (and the fact that a happy person probably wouldn't want to destroy the world.) For how important he is to the events of this expansion, his screen time feels limited. Not to mention that he's Amon, a character that has existed in lore since ARR. Fandaniel should have had a whole zone devoted to him too, and it should have been the moon. There is even an Allagan vessel up there and everything. It would have made the time between Anima and Zodiark feel less empty.

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The moon as a whole was a region that I had been looking forward to exploring until I got there. The narrative at the time you arrive has a very "go go go" feel to it and it made me feel like I couldn't pause until I got to the rabbits and I've never wanted to escape an environment so fast after that.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

The moon as a whole was a region that I had been looking forward to exploring until I got there. The narrative at the time you arrive has a very "go go go" feel to it and it made me feel like I couldn't pause until I got to the rabbits and I've never wanted to escape an environment so fast after that.

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Agreed, the loporrits part was like going back to old ARR and post patch ARR, killed my mood completely.

Moon highlighted as an important thing and ended up just being bait.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

The moon as a whole was a region that I had been looking forward to exploring until I got there. The narrative at the time you arrive has a very "go go go" feel to it and it made me feel like I couldn't pause until I got to the rabbits and I've never wanted to escape an environment so fast after that.

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Agreed. They really hyped the Moon visit up in the Endwalker Cinematic, but once you get there it does end up being a bit anticlimactic.

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Originally Posted by Nilroreo

Oh but I can, after all, she hypocritically preaches of her love and affection for life on Etheirys while simultaneously condemning inhabitants from at least 7 shards to their preordained deaths. We were the ones fortunate enough to be born in just the right era and shard to avoid becoming collateral damage in Hydaelyn's machinations, so of course the sundered in the present day would be more inclined to let her off the hook. I have enough self awareness to recognize Hydaelyn as a mass murderer. She took our side yes, and we did indeed benefit from her actions, but she is a mass murderer.

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Yep. This is what I said earlier of why I don't like "Duality" (Light / Dark, Yin / Yang, Order / Chaos are both equal and necessary) plots. Eventually, it leads to Survivorship Bias: "It's a good thing this horrible event happened, because it benefits ME and the other people who survived it."

Endwalker's plot reeks of Survivorship Bias.

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

Agreed. They really hyped the Moon visit up in the Endwalker Cinematic, but once you get there it does end up being a bit anticlimactic.

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Yeah, the sheer amount of focus placed upon it during the marketing and build up to Endwalker made it seem like a wasted opportunity. I hope more is done with the place.

They've mentioned there's some "other purpose" the moon and its copies in the reflections have yet to fulfill.

I can't help but feel like the fountain of dark aether left in Zodiark's wake and the shenanigans with the 13th we're handling presently are going end up linking together somehow.

I'm not sure how to feel about the other moons. First, this goes back to my not liking that Etheirys has no natural moons. Second, the moon serving as a prison for Zodiark/spaceship means it didn't exist until after the sundering, so all of the moons for the shards should be 'new' too. Third, I'd say maybe this'll finally address whether or not Hydaelyn was sundered, but I'm hoping we're done with her.

We know that the shards are 1) in their own dimension and 2) their fate is tied to the Source, so their moons shouldn't be escape pods. They could have been housing Zodiark body parts, which is odd unless Hydaelyn repurposed an already existing satellite and fought Zodiark there. Otherwise, 14 moons would've had to have been created and Zodiark's body parts hauled to them. Did they set the stage for this?

Based on what we've been presented with in game so far I have no idea what purpose the shard moons could possibly serve and after the writing in EW I'm concerned it's going to be something nonsensical. Particularly with them wanting to be done with the arc of the Ancients, I can't even speculate that they'll have any meaningful lore.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I'm not sure how to feel about the other moons. First, this goes back to my not liking that Etheirys has no natural moons.

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There is a visible moon in Elpis.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

The moon as a whole was a region that I had been looking forward to exploring until I got there. The narrative at the time you arrive has a very "go go go" feel to it and it made me feel like I couldn't pause until I got to the rabbits and I've never wanted to escape an environment so fast after that.

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Everything has to be cute somehow. Gotta insert something super cute uwu for twitter to make fanart of.

Also on the subject of the moon, where the hell is the light coming from? Forget the fact that we can breath (Hydaelin made it breathable, simple), but where is the light coming from? There is no Sun anywhere in the skybox, did they just forget to put a lightsource?

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Based on what we've been presented with in game so far I have no idea what purpose the shard moons could possibly serve and after the writing in EW I'm concerned it's going to be something nonsensical. Particularly with them wanting to be done with the arc of the Ancients, I can't even speculate that they'll have any meaningful lore.

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If previous writing trends are anything to follow then I can foresee the Loporrits setting up a chain of Lunar McDonald's restaurants on each remaining Moon, probably led by Moneyway or whatever other name they come up with. We will then be able to order deliveries from them using our Allagan Tomephones and surely we will be supplying them with ingredients farmed from Island Sanctuary.

So much for a Season 2 free from the remaining story threads of Season 1...

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Originally Posted by Xirean

There is a visible moon in Elpis.

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Yeah. Noticed that one day while I was hanging out there and wondered for a moment how that was possible before I remembered that this was Endwalker where nothing really matters or makes logical sense anyway. Best not to look too deeply.

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Originally Posted by PawPaw

Yeah. Noticed that one day while I was hanging out there and wondered for a moment how that was possible before I remembered that this was Endwalker where nothing really matters or makes logical sense anyway. Best not to look too deeply.

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Too late, I looked more deeply. As far as I can tell, the moon is there until you finish the Elpis story; then it goes away.
During Elpis story

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...48/unknown.png

Post 6.1

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...62/unknown.png