Please implement something to teach players how to play

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Originally Posted by Jadedsins

and I thank you for the carry. and if it fails. Well guess we make a new group and try again. Not a big deal. Better luck next time. Win some lose some. Failing is ok in games.

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The bolded part, true, but only if you are trying your best and to overcome, to do intentionally makes you a toxic player to others and if you are admitting to causing grief to others, I hope people report you and get the ban hammer for being toxic.

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Originally Posted by raelgun

Actually yes, if players get better we get better tuned content and more of it.

Fun fact, Yoshi P has actually said he would like to introduce DPS meters in the game without the ban hammer if the playerbase was actually better.

https://ricedigital.co.uk/ffxiv-fanf...producer-live/

Q: Can we have an official in game parser for only ourselves? Especially for PS4 players.
A: No. I 100% understand that you want to see your DPS, but then people will demand to know your DPS and there will be fights. And it would then mean someone would take the tool, and make it so you can see everyone’s. And we understand fully that people want this tool to get better themselves, but we are certain that it will lead to fighting. But we are always considering it for the future. So, during 3.X we saw the skill gap between good and bad players increase, which is why we are focusing on re-developing our battle system to close the gap. Once that happens, we will consider it. But now, it would just hurt the community. I’m not sure if I can say this, but we are working on a system that doesn’t display a number but may be a system that you can try and then try again, to make yourself better. Hmmm. It’s probably never been done on an MMO before.

Essentially, and from the word of Yoshi P himself, bad players are holding back good players in this game.

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I think you misunderstand; he's saying "good" players are holding the system back because it would 100% lead to bullying.

Bullying is a huge thing in Japan. Like, "SE would be legally liable if someone hurt themselves over it" big.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

I think you misunderstand; he's saying "good" players are holding the system back because it would 100% lead to bullying.

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Nope, good players do as they are, the developers had to rework systems in the game and rethink what they add and how the add it due to bad players, he actually said the skill gap is large, but thats due to fault of bad players being bad for number of reasons of course.

Yes hes worried about being called out but really, thats only for those doing what looks to be intentionally bad or AFKing imo.

Good players aren't holding back content, bad players are and Yoshi P even literally has stated skill gap a number of times during live letters, doesn't take a smart person to realise thats a nice way of saying theres a lot of bad players in this game.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

Oh, I afk'd and was playing Ori... got caught up in a boss fight. I've not hit post limits or whatever... but I also don't use her account ...come to think of it I don't think her account has a single forum post. Though I assume you're talking about the other guy w/ his wife posting?

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yeah! sorry for the confusion!!

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Originally Posted by raelgun

Nope, good players do as they are, the developers had to rework systems in the game and rethink what they add and how the add it due to bad players, he actually said the skill gap is large, but thats due to fault of bad players being bad for number of reasons of course.

Yes hes worried about being called out but really, thats only for those doing what looks to be intentionally bad or AFKing imo.

Good players aren't holding back content, bad players are and Yoshi P even literally has stated skill gap a number of times during live letters, doesn't take a smart person to realise thats a nice way of saying theres a lot of bad players in this game.

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You do realize what the target audience of this game is right? And the objective is to have as many paying customers as possible..right? The devs don’t care if players are good or bad at the game beyond a very basic level. This is not a competitive game.

His point was also that it shouldn’t be hard/complicated to play your job in a satisfactory way.

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Originally Posted by raelgun

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I think he has referenced the influx of "casual" players coming to the game. In regards to the 48-man raids or whatever. Made so a select amount of players can carry the rest of the raid. I don't agree with them being referenced as "casual" - since I think a casual player can play the game well enough, and do a proper rotation though. Players are choosing to play like this, even without something to teach players how to play. It's not like it takes much effort to read what skills do, and combos even light up. Like, I'll give some leeway for new players, but endgame content is being designed for this sort of play too.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

You do realize what the target audience of this game is right? And the objective is to have as many paying customers as possible..right? The devs don’t care if players are good or bad at the game beyond a very basic level. This is not a competitive game.

His point was also that it shouldn’t be hard/complicated to play your job in a satisfactory way.

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It's not hard or complicated in the first place - and many players still - apparently - can't play at a passable level.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

You do realize what the target audience of this game is right? And the objective is to have as many paying customers as possible..right? The devs don’t care if players are good or bad at the game beyond a very basic level. This is not a competitive game.

His point was also that it shouldn’t be hard/complicated to play your job in a satisfactory way.

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His Target audience is everyone, which is why all types of content exists, the game is entirely accessible, theres only 1 type of content that doesn't fit that and thats ultimates as you need to clear certain fights to gain 'ACCESS' but the whole game is accessible otherwise.

Theres no attunements either.

You need to find me a quote that tells me who is the target audience for this game, I provided a quote to Yoshi P real stance on DPS meters and actually said he would consider adding them to the game where as everyone else states hes actually against them.

Yoshi P actually watches World first groups in Savage, he even publicly in a Live letter congratulated the JP group that cleared coil Savage and used their screenshot on the stream.

In no way did he ever say it shouldn't be that hard to play your job in a satisfactory way, thats you making it up (others too to be fair), he was not expecting that many people to be that bad and alas here we still are.

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Originally Posted by ZedxKayn

Any reason you seem to pop up when he seems to have hit his daily post limit?

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Because they're both little more than trolls desperately seeking attention. There's literally no reason for either to post, assuming they genuinely are two different people, considering neither will change any minds (rightly so) and will simply be criticised as lazy. Again, rightly so.

At this point. It's better to ignore them, and should you happen to bump into either just silently kick like any other player refusing to properly utilize their skills.

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Originally Posted by raelgun

His Target audience is everyone, which is why all types of content exists, the game is entirely accessible, theres only 1 type of content that doesn't fit that and thats ultimates as you need to clear certain fights to gain 'ACCESS' but the whole game is accessible otherwise.

Theres no attunements either.

You need to find me a quote that tells me who is the target audience for this game, I provided a quote to Yoshi P real stance on DPS meters and actually said he would consider adding them to the game where as everyone else states hes actually against them.

Yoshi P actually watches World first groups in Savage, he even publicly in a Live letter congratulated the JP group that cleared coil Savage and used their screenshot on the stream.

In no way did he ever say it shouldn't be that hard to play your job in a satisfactory way, thats you making it up (others too to be fair).

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I mean, this is your posted quote from YoshiP: he said he wants the skill gap to be smaller. What do you think that means? Because if we see what the devs have done since HW, it means “make jobs easier to play and less complicated”. There have been very little things added that the OP was asking for (stuff to improve/teach players how to play better).

Furthermore, while YoshiP is a great source of information, his quotes are both unreliable (see housing) and intentionally vague (because he/the team can change their mind). He’s Japanese; Japanese rarely say “no” outright without some kind of “but we will consider it”. For him to even say no says a lot. A more typical Japanese reaction is something like “that would be difficult to do…”…which also means “no”.

As for a quote from YoshiP regarding a target audience, that’s kind of a silly thing to ask for: the game obviously has a legit/esrb/whatever rating. That’s all there is. While it does include those with skill, the vast majority are obviously average and (moreover) prime targets for bullying/bully-gating by elitists. This is what YoshiP has seen happen in other MMOs and has made it clear he does not want it in his game, thus no parsers.

Very rarely do I have a party with someone that doesn't listen to advice and is so bad we can't complete the content.

I think OP is exaggerating.

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Originally Posted by raelgun

Fun fact, Yoshi P has actually said he would like to introduce DPS meters in the game without the ban hammer if the playerbase was actually better.

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The link provided was an English interpretation of a LiveLetter from 2017. Let's look at a LiveLetter from 2020, shall we?

"We won't be adding an official parser."

"It will turn everything toxic, we won't implement one. EVER."

(Well, a more direct translation provided in another attempt at translation in reference to 3rd party parsing tools is:

"Then speaking about this topic, we are told ‘’Then just implement in an official tool!’’, but like we are saying ‘’We WON’T implement it’’. THAT and THIS, is a completely different issue…. Yeah… They are different issues. It will definitely turn into a storm, most definitely it cannot be denied that it will turn into a storm. Though there are people who say, ‘’That won’t happen. It will be user choice and moderation’’, however, in PF’s, it will be there. ‘’Only people who can prove this number can join’’. It will absolutely be chaos."

Sources:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FrGa1HJIVs
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...talking_about/

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

The link provided was an English interpretation of a LiveLetter from 2017. Let's look at a LiveLetter from 2020, shall we?

"We won't be adding an official parser."

"It will turn everything toxic, we won't implement one. EVER."

(Well, a more direct translation provided in another attempt at translation in reference to 3rd party parsing tools is:

"Then speaking about this topic, we are told ‘’Then just implement in an official tool!’’, but like we are saying ‘’We WON’T implement it’’. THAT and THIS, is a completely different issue…. Yeah… They are different issues. It will definitely turn into a storm, most definitely it cannot be denied that it will turn into a storm. Though there are people who say, ‘’That won’t happen. It will be user choice and moderation’’, however, in PF’s, it will be there. ‘’Only people who can prove this number can join’’. It will absolutely be chaos."

Sources:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FrGa1HJIVs
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...talking_about/

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And this changes the fact that Yoshi uses strong emphasis of 'Skill gap'?, that stance doesn't change in 3 years or ever really.

Fact is Yoshi P admitted that there is a lot of bad players in this game, also that interview in 2020 with his response is likely just repeating what hes been told to say.

Do you really think Yoshi P really thinks like that? when he him self admits to the skill gap - which is corporate speaking to say in a nice way theres a lot of bad players that is more then expected.

Pretty sure they don't feel pressured to consider that given their most passionate fanbase (JAPAN) doesn't need or miss having an official parser.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

Pretty sure they don't feel pressured to consider that given their most passionate fanbase (JAPAN) doesn't need or miss having an official parser.

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Their raiders certainly use it, Yoshi P has shared a screenshot of a JP world first clear in a savage raid which literally had ACT running.

Yoshi also has been on record stating that they expect strong players to carry the weaker ones. That's not a healthy mind set.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Yoshi also has been on record stating that they expect strong players to carry the weaker ones. That's not a healthy mind set.

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That depends on the extent of it, or what is meant by "carry" or "weaker".

For instance, are they truly "weaker" in some inherent/habitual sense, or just weaker in that particular fight because it's their first time? I have no issues carrying a player who is at least putting in the effort, or whose mistakes are fully understandable.

I imagine there are ways by which the translated quote's intent could remain within what is reasonable. Do I suspect that was, in fact, the intent... Not so much, but I doubt he was giving full license to grab others by the heel and insist on a tow.

The larger issue to me is that it slates any failure to learn or care to learn as solely a community problem, which just smacks of blaming your students for not understanding a poorly implemented lesson.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

The link provided was an English interpretation of a LiveLetter from 2017. Let's look at a LiveLetter from 2020, shall we?

"We won't be adding an official parser."

"It will turn everything toxic, we won't implement one. EVER."

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To be fair, he also seems to have little idea what he's talking about it regard to parsers, given the plethora of MMOs in which they have become normal in play and have ultimately reduced toxicity -- in its various forms of blame-tossing, finger-pointing, near-immediate disbandment upon a single or second failed run, or kicks on basis of suspicion alone, etc.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

Pretty sure they don't feel pressured to consider that given their most passionate fanbase (JAPAN) doesn't need or miss having an official parser.

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Why would you assume a whole community has less use for transparency or conveniently analyzable information? No. The JP side of things uses ACT plentifully, too. And, doubtless, FFlogs' analysis tools.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

That depends on the extent of it, or what is meant by "carry" or "weaker".

For instance, are they truly "weaker" in some inherent/habitual sense, or just weaker in that particular fight because it's their first time? I have no issues carrying a player who is at least putting in the effort, or whose mistakes are fully understandable.

I imagine there are ways by which the translated quote's intent could remain within what is reasonable. Do I suspect that was, in fact, the intent... Not so much, but I doubt he was giving full license to grab others by the heel and insist on a tow.



To be fair, he also seems to have little idea what he's talking about it regard to parsers, else the plethora of MMOs if which they have become normal in play and have ultimately reduced toxicity -- in its various forms of blame-tossing, finger-pointing, near-immediate disbandment upon a single or second failed run, or kicks on basis of suspicion alone, etc.

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If I recall correctly it was from an interview discussing fight design and possible harder 4 man content with Yoshi's response being that in 24 man and 8 man content personal responsibility is mitigated and those fights can by and large be carried off the backs of stronger players. This fear of shunting more responsibility onto players in harder 4 man content is why they are hesitant to produce that content.

As much as I like to agree on teaching people how to play the game in better ways. It's just the issue is there is plenty of it, it just comes down to two important aspects. Paying attention to what the game gives you and reading the stuff that pops up . Most of the time people don't do one, the other, or either. People would rather just play the game with no care in the world and want to go about it in their own way even if it becomes a deterrant for players that know everything about the game already or people that do pay attention to the game to know it better. It just comes down to trying to guide them as best as you can cause sometimes people just don't pay attention to alot of things. Heck I was pretty bad at paying attention myself at one point but I forced myself to step up so I can get better at the game, that and I got help.

I however think the biggest issue is alot of mentors actually not mentoring, people treat the burger king crown like a badge of bragging rights and don't actually help people, It's something I see countless times when there is obvious sprouts in need of learning things and they actually type in chat on what they are doing wrong and the mentors do nothing, or act like sprouts themselves. The issue is very prevelent when the entire community makes fun of people that are mentors as well because of that fact cause they ain't doing their dang job as a mentor.

I stopped reading at around page 16 like 4 days ago to come back…. almost 30 new pages o_O”

Ya’all on fire lmao.

Jokes aside, those ‘real bad apples’ that refuses to put in any modicum of effort are the sole reason I refuse to join any on-going party via roulette.

People leave for multiple possible reasons; sure they could be matched with an afk player, but when there’s a small chance that I’ll get paired with the ‘real bad apples’… no. I don’t have the capacity to deal with such f-ery in my limited gaming hour which I’m supposed to have fun in.

Not being receptive to advice while also contributing to make runs progressively inconvenient is the worst combination of traits I can find in a player, ever.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Jokes aside, those ‘real bad apples’ that refuses to put in any modicum of effort are the sole reason I refuse to join any on-going party via roulette.

People leave for multiple possible reasons; sure they could be matched with an afk player, but when there’s a small chance that I’ll get paired with the ‘real bad apples’… no. I don’t have the capacity to deal with such f-ery in my limited gaming hour which I’m supposed to have fun in.

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I might do the same if I had no main alt I could just jump to after deserting if worse goes to worst. Given that, though, I don't like the idea that a group that just needed to replace a perma-d/c or got tired of being bullied around by their tank or finally had it with their princess healer or whatnot would take forever to refill just because of suspicion as to what might have led to the opening.

That said, I also rarely do DF within ~35 minutes of when I may be joining friends in a DF duty, just in case I random a hell run. Usually if there's at least one other person competent, though, I can get through it in a decent time. (Though, was also reported for just duoing the dungeon as a PLD with a competent NIN assisting, because the two who had been afk since before the first boss got locked out of the last boss fight... So that's a thing...)

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

If I recall correctly it was from an interview discussing fight design and possible harder 4 man content with Yoshi's response being that in 24 man and 8 man content personal responsibility is mitigated and those fights can by and large be carried off the backs of stronger players. This fear of shunting more responsibility onto players in harder 4 man content is why they are hesitant to produce that content.

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More difficult 4 player content would be great, it's really too bad. This kind of content would presumably be easier to organize as well. Their battle team is stretched thin, so I guess they are just going to continue catering to these players. It's an issue of this or that in terms of battle content, and it sucks that we cannot get more content that would cater to players that actually put a bit of effort in their play.

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Originally Posted by Jadedsins

She plays both. (answering for him) Her main is a dragoon. LOL and plays like I would. Not move around at all for her skills.


Lots of older people play this game I found out.

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Skyrim Grandma would be ashamed >.<. It isn't bad if someone just doesn't know how things work, but Skyrim Grandma could put many players to shame in ff14. She even knows all of the lingo and is a sweet heart. Unfortunately, the book that would teach the lingos of the game within the Hall of Novice shed right before Sastasha is missed by many, even myself. My mom had to point it out because she thought it was precious. I wish I were more perceptive because even though I have played other things, every game has different bits of ling. I am still trying to get all of them down like TEA and OWO and UCOB there isn't any list of these anywhere, and they are not to hard to figure out, but a nice list somewhere would be cool.

Has the person who created this thread even responded at all? Or did the just throw a book of matches into a giant pile of matchbooks to see how high the flames would get?

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Originally Posted by Neoyoshi

Has the person who even created this thread even responded at all? Or did the just throw a book of matches into a giant pile of matchbooks to see how high the flames would get?

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Quite often at first. The thread's simply evolved since then to where he probably felt his takes or their relevant sub-topics had already been sufficiently addressed.

No need to assume that an OP is purposely starting a community brushfire just because the thread hit a high page count.

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

I also had a buddy tell me I could pull everything from the moment I started the game if I used my CDs. Maybe that was too much of an advantage lol

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Idk if "too" much, but that one little long step encouraged at the start can make for a weirdly huge difference.

_________

A bit off-topic, but sometimes I wish the class-quests weren't quite so strictly limited to their classes, just because some of those NPC companions could give some really fun and integral perspectives by which to approach the game, if they were allowed. That or just a bit more encouragement to multi-class as one goes, maybe, so one can more quickly see content from multiple roles' perspectives.

Consider those stationed in Limsa Lominsa, for instance. You've got the... analysis-retentive Arcanist NPC, the "just go in there and bash em dead" Marauders, and, if polished or deepened a bit, could get more of a supportive side-view from the Rogues, etc. It deepens the sense of character, world, and engagement with the game's available mechanics all at once. A win-win.

Alternatively, the game could just make a bit better use of its crafted solo-play moments and opportunities things via NPCs through more finely sculpted engagements in that solo content (job/class quests, etc.). Again, there's nothing to be lost in that, and a fair bit to be gained, especially in providing an especially satisfying intro to the game even once our latest influx has died down and no longer tint the game rosy through sheer numbers.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

More difficult 4 player content would be great, it's really too bad. This kind of content would presumably be easier to organize as well. Their battle team is stretched thin, so I guess they are just going to continue catering to these players. It's an issue of this or that in terms of battle content, and it sucks that we cannot get more content that would cater to players that actually put a bit of effort in their play.

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This really bums me out. I always am reminded of when an npc died in my archer or bard quest early on in my journey and seeing you could put the duty on easy, very easy, normal, but there were no higher difficulty to practice the class. I know people struggled with content, there are some who do not wish to even try and troll others, but there are the people who log in to the game every day looking to learn, looking for a challenge. The millions of tutorial pop ups are great and all, but I suck and reading things without context sometimes(okay all of the time) all of it kind of bleeds together especially when coupled with ARR exposition dumping.

I will never forget the drk in a prog group for Nidhogg extreme who posted the wiki guide at the beginning of the fight. I can't memorize an entire wiki guide and assimilate the knowledge, and I wished to prog the fight not read the wiki. Though the same drk must have deemed 'shirk' not a worthy skill and removed it from their bar like the manliest of men, this fight was made harder by those not playing well and gave me a way to work my brain to come up with a solution to tank swapping with them. Something I know to be true with this and other content, is if they all knew what to do, the fight would go super fast and I would have learned nothing. When a boss phase skips everything in a dungeon or trial how I am meant to, as a player who wishes to learn, know a phase that never happens until we get johnny no combo and mistress aesthetic animation art snob. This really should not be the case. I should not be wishing for prog teams to learn new things about fights.

I know it will never happen, and I can already go into fights via party finder minimum ilvl sync into a Trial to learn, but the fact that you can brute force through Garuda extreme with a team who doesn't say anything, rapid fire pulls, and beat their heads into a wall without speaking until the echo lets them phase skip and survive mechanics is just freaking sad. Sometimes I truly wonder if I am playing with humans or machines. This is not without the millions of times I have enjoyed content, but alot about this whole mentality, even square is catering to, just really bums me out. Just go make a mobile ff14 game and be done with it like Aion did, though they just released Aion classic as well, so their dumbing down clearly was not paying out anymore.

I will await patiently, and if they ruin all of the classes further, and dumb things down more and not even add something nice for those who wish for a challenge I suppose it will be time to move on from ff14. I have not been keeping up with the news but if there is no deep dungeon in endwalker I shall be sad. At the least, Swtor is releasing an update, they dumbed down some of the stats in that game, but it has some challenge group content maybe with the update there will be more people on to queue with.

When you attempt to please everyone you please no one and this thread is fantastic example! Appealing to majority of self entitled babies in adult bodies never ends well.

First the "elitists" evacuate to form their own groups to clear content that becomes less and less satisfying then leave once done.
Then the "average" player grows weary of being shouted at or expected to carry the below group and leaves. They may or may not attempt end game content before doing so. When they do, finding a party is one exercise in futility because group A left already.
This leaves group C, the "toxic casual". Group C believes that everyone is okay with dragging them through content and across the victory line kicking and screaming. They often lash out at others as children without understanding would. Groups A, B, and even C do not wish to play a game with group C (no matter how much they tell themselves they do).

Once groups A and B leave the game only group C remains. Group C proceeds to devour each other until everyone is sick of playing and the game begins the downward spiral into oblivion. FF14 has already reached peak levels of group C, what happens next will be most predictable to anyone with working brain cells.

Look towards a game that appeals to groups A and B, Dark Souls. It still has a fairly active community of friendly players despite being very very old and riddled with issues and bugs with netcode so bad it puts FF14's to shame. Heck! I have had invaders treat me with more respect and dignity then 50% of my duty finder groups and their soul purpose is to kill me..

about healer doing some DPS . Hall of Novice or that Smith , it will tell you when youre doing it as a healer, you should do some DPS just watch party HPs. but tbh its getting common and i dont care if its on 70-80 or at lower levels. game is really easy, but some people really still dont know what for their role is and which actions they have. i dont know why and its really sadden me. im not entitled or anything, but getting slowly salty. glad i can spend whole day in Bozja to avoid it , even you can meet also this situation there.

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Originally Posted by raelgun

And this changes the fact that Yoshi uses strong emphasis of 'Skill gap'?, that stance doesn't change in 3 years or ever really.

Fact is Yoshi P admitted that there is a lot of bad players in this game, also that interview in 2020 with his response is likely just repeating what hes been told to say.

Do you really think Yoshi P really thinks like that? when he him self admits to the skill gap - which is corporate speaking to say in a nice way theres a lot of bad players that is more then expected.

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That's a lot of assumptions on what Yoshi-P thinks. Rather, see what the dev team has done in those past 3 years. For better or for worse the skill gap has indeed been closed as jobs are significantly easier to play since 2017.

Since we're assuming about what Yoshi-P thinks, I don't think he honestly cares how good or bad players are, as long as they are having fun (and paying the bills).

Why would someone who
A) publicly encourages taking a time out from the game to play other games,
B) has a strong stance against bullying and/or bully-gating,
C) has actively pushed his dev team to add more and more "fluff" content instead of hard content
...also secretly/privately resent bad players?

I've said it before in this very thread, but:

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I think this is the key point that some people just don’t get. Some people see this game that needs to be more demanding of skill or harder to challenge players. The problem here is to the devs, this is “Disneyland Online”. You hang out with friends, you wait in line to go down the same path everyone else does to see the pirates..or haunted mansion..or abandoned mines. (I expect space mountain next!). Pepper in some minis you can pick up at the souvenir store and you’re set.

That is all. This is a virtual theme park. Priority is keeping the vast majority of guests satisfied and wanting to come back. That’s it.

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If I wanted to play a game with high difficulty and/or skill, I will indeed play Dark Souls, or currently getting through Ori on hard difficulty. FFXIV is not (and will never be) that game.

The skill gap is no different from ARR to HW to SB to ShB. It will be the same in EW. You can dumb a job down to paint eating levels, yet the skill gap persist. Also, with the dumbing down you get a lot of players dissatisfied with the direction their job/role is taking. Just see the sheer boredom that is healing and tanking.

Reminder that most people who talk about "requirements" never actually talk about the actual mathematical requirements and instead they obsess over inflated requirements that allow them to literally quickly roflstomp content because apparently not doing something efficiently and fast is literally the worst fate for such people.

I am sorry but when content can be easily done with literally half an optimal dps player, going around demanding l33t top performance from everyone is moronic.

It is the same thing as in wow where elitists keep demanding ridiculously inflated requirements, pretending it is so they can do the content when literally even mythic raids and high m+ can be bought with the buyer AFKing at the start which shows all those inflated elitists requirements are complete BS.

The developers stated over and over that the reason they are dumping down jobs complexity is because of the average player performance.

FFXIV player base lack information. The majority of them don't know where they stand in terms of performance. They assume they are doing OK, but are they really?

I personally know a lot of players who were shocked to hear the truth about their performance. Mostly told by a friend or an FC mate. These players did not quit the game (Which for some reason a lot of players assume is what's going to happen) instead, they got better.

Giving information made a difference. I'd assume because the information came from someone they knew instead of a complete stranger.

Now if the game somehow made getting this information accessible without the need to refer to a friend or an FC mate. Things could change for the better.

And just to be clear, I don't think OP is asking for top performance. They're asking for basics. Which yes, the majority of the players lack.

I'm beginning to assume that people got used to seeing bad performance more often that they took it as the norm. Which is part of the problem.

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Originally Posted by Yeol

The developers stated over and over that the reason they are dumping down jobs complexity is because of the average player performance.

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I really hope this doesnt continue because I was positively surprised by the "complexity" of many jobs which actually requires some time to master unlike WoW's dumbed down specs that can be mastered in a few days due to how much they ve been dumbed down, jobs become very boring if they can be mastered in a few days.

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Originally Posted by Yeol

Giving information made a difference. I'd assume because the information came from someone they knew instead of a complete stranger.

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That or more importantly it was suggested in a positive and non elitist manner which is a rare thing to see from the average gamer these days since most are unable to communicate without being insulting and accusatory.

There's is a big difference between "OMG WHY ARENT YOU USING X" and "Btw could you use X so I am not hit that hard, would help me", or the "Could you use X so this is finished faster? gogogo", only one of those 3 is actually positive and explains things correctly, the other 2 are demands, and few people online are gonna obey some random gamer's demands or their need to finish things quickly.

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Originally Posted by Yeol

And just to be clear, I don't think OP is asking for top performance. They're asking for basics. Which yes, the majority of the players lack.

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This is where you have to be really careful, because some simply expect people to know their job's basic mechanics, something that could be achieved by making low level content require things such as interrupts/dispels consistently or you die, the design problem is that the devs usually give you a couple of times where you need to use your utility skills and then dont really bother with them, after that even if it is needed failing to use your utility isnt going to kill you which is the problem. I dont believe requiring basic utility usage or you die is somehow increasing the difficulty by much, it is an aspect of your job that you should use to avoid dying and it should be highlighted more in open world and casual content so people start to instinctively use it more often to avoid death.

But you have to be careful because some people who seem to be ENTITLED to fast efficient runs seem to demand top performance because for them the worst fate seems to be not being able to clear something ultra fast and efficiently to get X reward.

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

How did I learn to play the game?

I just played the game tbh. I read tooltips, ran Sastasha over and over (until I got confident), that kind of thing. Only time I went external was to check out the balance for Savage content (because I didnt want to be dead weight.) I also had a buddy tell me I could pull everything from the moment I started the game if I used my CDs. Maybe that was too much of an advantage lol

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But you played through the game right? Like most people?

I'm asking because everyone who plays through the game is supposedly being taught how to play their specific role; the Job story quests are there for that, as well as the levequests, the Smith NPC for Novices; and just playing and learning from mistakes are all of this games tools that it uses to instruct people.

I don't think you are an elitist or anything, but i get the sense that when you wrote that post, you were possibly frustrated? Am i wrong? I also get the sense that what you are really asking is for people to be better- more prepared players.

Look, there is nothing we can do with what is going on with people outside of a game, we are human beings with lives, sometimes life just gets in the way, sometimes a phone rings, or there is a knock at the door, or a baby is crying.

There's bad internet, PC issues, heck, the other night a FC-mate of mine was running a Ruby EX and her wireless controller died on her, even though she made sure to fully charge it before the Ruby runs that night; and she was franticly looking for her controllers cord to plug it in.

Life just happens man, we can't do anything about that; I'm sorry if this sounds patronizing- but I think we all could exercise more patience and compassion with each other while we play.

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

It is the same thing as in wow where elitists keep demanding ridiculously inflated requirements, pretending it is so they can do the content when literally even mythic raids and high m+ can be bought with the buyer AFKing at the start which shows all those inflated elitists requirements are complete BS.

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You realize that inflation is almost always proportionate to the likelihood of encountering underprepared players, who would otherwise force replacements to have even a chance at progressing beyond phase 1, right? Yes, there are some who want to be carried through burst phases or mechanics by gear levels, but for the most part it's just to ensure minimal replacement is necessary upon entry.

For my part, I can take an undergeared alt, link prior experience, and get invited just fine, because the risk they take on me is already thereby minimized.

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Originally Posted by Neoyoshi

I'm asking because everyone who plays through the game is supposedly being taught how to play their specific role; the Job story quests are there for that, as well as the levequests, the Smith NPC for Novices; and just playing and learning from mistakes are all of this games tools that it uses to instruct people.

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I'd guess it's still hit and miss. If the player knows what to be on the look-out for, the ingame information is mostly sufficient -- though a brief search externally as to clipping ideosyncracies, and some familiarity with raid CDs outside one's own job (for alignment, etc.), etc., can be worthwhile icing on the cake.

If they don't know what to be on the look-out for, or have yet to be drawn in to those kinds of habits of gameplay... it might be far from enough, especially since across the learning experience relies on motivation that just isn't relevant until that experience's very end (Extreme or harder content).

Just introduce the rating system at the end of the dungeons that will vary between 1 and 5 stars and will take into account an amalgamation of things: DPS, hps, overhealing, apm etc.
A very subtle way to indicate player's performance without introducing DPS meter

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Originally Posted by MiaShino

When you attempt to please everyone you please no one and this thread is fantastic example! Appealing to majority of self entitled babies in adult bodies never ends well.

First the "elitists" evacuate to form their own groups to clear content that becomes less and less satisfying then leave once done.
Then the "average" player grows weary of being shouted at or expected to carry the below group and leaves. They may or may not attempt end game content before doing so. When they do, finding a party is one exercise in futility because group A left already.
This leaves group C, the "toxic casual". Group C believes that everyone is okay with dragging them through content and across the victory line kicking and screaming. They often lash out at others as children without understanding would. Groups A, B, and even C do not wish to play a game with group C (no matter how much they tell themselves they do).

Once groups A and B leave the game only group C remains. Group C proceeds to devour each other until everyone is sick of playing and the game begins the downward spiral into oblivion. FF14 has already reached peak levels of group C, what happens next will be most predictable to anyone with working brain cells.

Look towards a game that appeals to groups A and B, Dark Souls. It still has a fairly active community of friendly players despite being very very old and riddled with issues and bugs with netcode so bad it puts FF14's to shame. Heck! I have had invaders treat me with more respect and dignity then 50% of my duty finder groups and their soul purpose is to kill me..

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Group A and B need a final fantasy souls-like sutch punitive final fantasy will make you curse 7 future generation of game dev. will make you crie tears of blood! They will love it! Square could improve AI from sephiroth of KH and use in sutch game. 10x more chalenging!

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Originally Posted by Endariel

Just introduce the rating system at the end of the dungeons that will vary between 1 and 5 stars and will take into account an amalgamation of things: DPS, hps, overhealing, apm etc.
A very subtle way to indicate player's performance without introducing DPS meter

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But why avoid a useful, more hands-on learning tool? There is nothing toxic about a dps meter that would not also be "toxic" about literally any other way by which someone might learn they or another are not performing as well as the average party member.

It's an underlying, preexistent conflict that is simply framed in a more conveniently analyzable way. Previously, having no information, you would simply disband and roll the dice on the next party if unable to remotely progress against a dps check. With parsers, you can look at when and for whom throughput is bogging, and address that. That's it. [A] had no direct means of recourse. [B] does. But I guess so long as A is silent and B the improvements B allows for may require talking to people, B must be toxic, right?

It's like insisting that DVDs were inherently criminal because they were the first medium on which you heard of bootleg copies being made. Had any other means, such as a x/5 stars performance rating, been our first definitive/quantifiable/analyzable exposure to unprepared or unengaged players, that would be getting the bad reputation instead (albeit pretty much only here in XIV, where basic etiquette and responsibility can be treated as oppression). Parsers are a merely an information tool. Yes, that information can be increasingly or decreasingly relevant depending on how well its framing of information fits what is intended of the game (I'd argue ACT is painfully basic/lackluster in that regard), but an information tool cannot itself create the problem it quantifies for players' analysis; it can only describe it.

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Originally Posted by Yeol

The developers stated over and over that the reason they are dumping down jobs complexity is because of the average player performance.

FFXIV player base lack information. The majority of them don't know where they stand in terms of performance. They assume they are doing OK, but are they really?

I personally know a lot of players who were shocked to hear the truth about their performance. Mostly told by a friend or an FC mate. These players did not quit the game (Which for some reason a lot of players assume is what's going to happen) instead, they got better.

Giving information made a difference. I'd assume because the information came from someone they knew instead of a complete stranger.

Now if the game somehow made getting this information accessible without the need to refer to a friend or an FC mate. Things could change for the better.

And just to be clear, I don't think OP is asking for top performance. They're asking for basics. Which yes, the majority of the players lack.

I'm beginning to assume that people got used to seeing bad performance more often that they took it as the norm. Which is part of the problem.

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How do you quantify what is "okay" performance?

I can guarantee you that players would try to set the bar for "okay" far higher than the developers have set it. Many already get upset when a dungeon isn't facerolled in 10 minutes.

What do you do about the players using systems that meet minimum system requirements and/or have slow internet connections speeds because they live in remote areas? Do you say "tough for you, you aren't allowed to play because you aren't rich enough to have the latest tech and fastest internet"? I remember raiding in WoW back in Wrath. My computer died mid-tier, got a replacement 2 weeks later and went back to raiding with the guild. My DPS increased 30% not because I had suddenly become a better player after 2 weeks of not raiding but because I was no longer having to raid at 3-7 FPS. Skill queuing was working better for me and I could see mechanics in enough time to move out of the way consistently instead of just when I got lucky.

Then there are the overseas players dealing with much higher ping that face the same struggles I had back in Wrath despite having good systems and good connection speeds.

It's difficult to set standards for what is "okay" when every player's situation is different. If you personally don't want to play with those who struggle for whatever reason, that's your choice. Use PF to form groups instead of relying on Duty Finder matchmaking and you can set your own standards for who is in your group.

But it's not up to you or any other players to decide who should be allowed to play. That's up to SE.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

I can guarantee you that players would try to set the bar for "okay" far higher than the developers have set it. Many already get upset when a dungeon isn't facerolled in 10 minutes.

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Exactly this, min.ilvl requirements exist by the devs to quantify "okay" performance, technically can be done with lower ilvl but it is always safe to add a safety margin so it is already above the mathematical average requirement to get over the encounter.

Like you said the problem appears when the average elitist demands top performance for content that neither requires nor needs it to clear but it might be needed for their quick 10 minute roflstomp run because for some reason they feel entitled to a quick run and the rewards.

Seems like the community could degenerate the same way the WoW community has degenerated where they obsess over efficiency and anything even SLIGHTLY INEFFICIENT is labeled as "unviable" because it does 1.2% less dps, if this continues I wouldnt doubt some extreme tryhards will simulate the best 8 job comb to find the one that does 2% more damage overall and call jobs outside of that "unviable".