Healers who rescue pull tanks into mobs.

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Originally Posted by Parn

Most of the times whether I'm in the role tank, DPS or Healer and another healer uses rescue on me trying to save me from one AOE they just drop me in another one. It is one thing to die from my own stupidity but dying because of other idiots makes me mad. This skill needs to removed ASAP. It is a troll skill and the game will be better without it. You don't even have to replace it just REMOVE it.

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I suspect it will go in the next wave of new skills with 6.0. This thread has more then demonstrated the willingness of some to use it for purposes it was not intended.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

I suspect it will go in the next wave of new skills with 6.0. This thread has more then demonstrated the willingness of some to use it for purposes it was not intended.

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It's "survived" one skill revision, and there are no signs that major abuse of it exists. One thread with a few complainers and even less people "willing to use it for purposes it was not intended" does not indicate it's subject to deletion.

I'd even go further and claim that if some people claiming they're using it wrong (and that's very debatable) makes it necessary to delete the skill, then countless threads on this forum show people usually misuse the Report function as a "I disagree with you therefore you need to be punished" and it also needs to be deleted.

I personally wish the CD was shorter as I would use it a lot more during Copied Factory as I am always keeping an eye on the new player who is about to get destroyed by a mechanic. I do not abuse it because I do not want it to get removed but I am afraid that it will get removed not because of the complaints that a few players are abusing it but because they cant get it to work as intended as its often too slow. I am on a fiber internet connection and when I use Rescue, it can take up to 1.5 seconds to register and pull the player over. By that time, the only thing I get is a dead corpse sliding across the screen.

Rescue suffers from the same system that makes Benediction fail all too often, its too slow to work. Its a wonderful idea and works in many other games but those games do not have SEs server infrastructure issues.

i wish they give all job an option that caan be toggle on and off on how they want rescue affect their character, just like when they make everyone can pick size of bahamut summon

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

I suspect it will go in the next wave of new skills with 6.0. This thread has more then demonstrated the willingness of some to use it for purposes it was not intended.

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I knew that Rescue was here to stay once it survived expansion pruning. That was honestly the most opportune time for those who want this skill to go away to be removed.

Should I bring up it's anti-troll capabilities? You do realize that if Rescue is capable of preventing a KO or wipe, it can also be used to prevent a troll from causing it? I'll use my recent Shinryu farm party as an example. It was ran with friends, and one of them decided to take the tail slap marker right on the middle platform just for a trollol, and promised they wouldn't do it again. I know her though, and that's basically her saying, "I am going to do it again". Sure enough, she got the marker, and nested a cozy spot on the middle platform, and I wasn't having it. We were there for doggos, not shizzngiggles.

Players having bad experiences because others misuse their resources isn't going away. If it is any consolation, you can at least remain hopeful that the CD duration of Rescue won't get reduced. I know that doesn't seem like much, but healers with good intent with rescue (most of them), and find themselves high and dry when another rescue opportunity pops up, but it is still on CD.

Rescue is definitely a strange ability.
You can't use it on someone that's actively AFK'ing
It's usefull on people who are about to get nuked on AOE, or those that refuse to go to the spot to not get nuked by ancient flare.

I'm a casual player that doesn't want to go all hardcore elitist about things. But the accounts of those that either use Rescue to pull into mobs or trolling? I see it akin to a similar issue of someone PKing by kiting mobs (like one account I read about Eureka).

If they're especially a rando player who's trolling like that for rescue, you've got a few options.
1: Tell them to stop. Bad healer! BAD!
2: vote kick if repeated
or 3: report them so any GM can discipline them about their actions. Report function's there on purpose for those that think and behave like they can troll others and potentially sabotage people's play experience.

And save the rescue "fun" for your friends where you and the other are in on it. It should be common sense.

And others could work on setting up their hotbars where rescue isn't somewhere awkward and inconvenient, or just take it out of your hotbar entirely if you never plan on using it, ever. The others, like myself, that do use it on occasion will still use it. Like when someone's not getting on the floating air vacuum of syrcus tower or not Boosting into Birds and is going to eat all the damage.

I should also add that since for the moment 5.25 that we are still not able to place markers mid combat, it's not like you can just plop down a marker for people to tell them to go someplace while a fight's going on.

Just because people may use it as a tank leash does not mean we should axe the skill, maybe a toogle option but that option should not be allowed to be used during a raid encounter.

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Originally Posted by Manamaru

Rescue is definitely a strange ability.
You can't use it on someone that's actively AFK'ing
It's usefull on people who are about to get nuked on AOE, or those that refuse to go to the spot to not get nuked by ancient flare.

I'm a casual player that doesn't want to go all hardcore elitist about things. But the accounts of those that either use Rescue to pull into mobs or trolling? I see it akin to a similar issue of someone PKing by kiting mobs (like one account I read about Eureka).

If they're especially a rando player who's trolling like that for rescue, you've got a few options.
1: Tell them to stop. Bad healer! BAD!
2: vote kick if repeated
or 3: report them so any GM can discipline them about their actions. Report function's there on purpose for those that think and behave like they can troll others and potentially sabotage people's play experience.

And save the rescue "fun" for your friends where you and the other are in on it. It should be common sense.

And others could work on setting up their hotbars where rescue isn't somewhere awkward and inconvenient, or just take it out of your hotbar entirely if you never plan on using it, ever. The others, like myself, that do use it on occasion will still use it. Like when someone's not getting on the floating air vacuum of syrcus tower or not Boosting into Birds and is going to eat all the damage.

I should also add that since for the moment 5.25 that we are still not able to place markers mid combat, it's not like you can just plop down a marker for people to tell them to go someplace while a fight's going on.

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Overall I do not think GM's will take action if one does not express in chat their sole purpose is trolling. I have trolled with it a lot and have been told that I will be reported and no action has been taken against my account nor have GM spoken to me. So either people do not report or they do report and GM's just do not act unless someone waves a sign around I am doing this on purpose to troll.

reporting mid-duty is more of a pain stake, navigating various menus and filling out the actual form. If it was mid dungeon before you even reached the end, the individual likely never got around to it, especially if they're trying to actively get through content and the troller is purposely making their experience more aggravating than it's worth.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Pulling someone into mobs or even trolling a player is far from abuse. Not sure what it is but people seems to lump minor inconveniences at best as abuse far too often. Sort of muddles the word "abuse" just my 2 cents.

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I am actually using the correct connotation for abuse.

abuse:

1.use (something) to bad effect or for a bad purpose; misuse. (the definition i was using)
2.treat (a person or an animal) with cruelty or violence, especially regularly or repeatedly. (what you assume it only means)

noun
1. the improper use of something. (also possible use i could be using)
2.cruel and violent treatment of a person or animal.


so yes it is abuse to use the rescue still to pull people into mobs for trolling purpose, or to make them pull more.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I've honestly never seen rescue used for anything useful; it's always just the healer being obnoxious. I saw it happen to 3 different tanks this week. It's only happened to me once and it really did annoy me.

I'd honestly like to see that skill removed or adjusted in a way that prevents healers from being able to pull people who aren't interested.

Assuming that's not going to happen, I've been trying to think about how I should handle it if it ever happened to me again. What I'd like is to let the healer die without wiping the group, but I'm fuzzy on the particulars and only have hypotheticals to work with...

So, if I get pulled into aggro range am I immediately on the aggro list, or would the mobs simply kill the healer and walk away if I were to quickly lunge back to the original group of enemies without touching anything? Does 1 person in the group pulling automatically put everyone else on the aggro list?

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As a WHM main, I have used Rescue 5 times since I got it. Twice to try and save people (missed the timing though) and 3 times to save my husband from a certain primal's root attack. Otherwise, I honestly forget I have it.

There are those who troll with it (see any of DrakGamestein's videos with Seabass in it) but to me that is few and far between.

I've been debating on completely removing it from my hotbar.

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Originally Posted by Yue_Amariyo

I am actually using the correct connotation for abuse.

abuse:

1.use (something) to bad effect or for a bad purpose; misuse. (the definition i was using)
2.treat (a person or an animal) with cruelty or violence, especially regularly or repeatedly. (what you assume it only means)

noun
1. the improper use of something. (also possible use i could be using)
2.cruel and violent treatment of a person or animal.


so yes it is abuse to use the rescue still to pull people into mobs for trolling purpose, or to make them pull more.

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Meh, as I said in another post for me it is far from abuse, but that is mostly for personal reasons since I grew up around abuse between my parents, but if you want to lump trolling as abuse by all means go for it. I personally do not consider trolling abuse. Just my personal take on it, just for me it seems silly to lump a minor inconvenience or trolling with abuse but hey if you do that is cool.

Personally I think some players are tad too thin-skinned or take things far too personally and get worked up over nothing. End of the day it is a minor inconvenience at worst. It is like what a 2 min cool down? It is certainly not something that can be spammed, as much as I wish it was.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Meh, as I said in another post for me it is far from abuse, but that is mostly for personal reasons since I grew up around abuse between my parents, but if you want to lump trolling as abuse by all means go for it. I personally do not consider trolling abuse. Just my personal take on it, just for me it seems silly to lump a minor inconvenience or trolling with abuse but hey if you do that is cool.

Personally I think some players are tad too thin-skinned or take things far too personally and get worked up over nothing. End of the day it is a minor inconvenience at worst. It is like what a 2 min cool down? It is certainly not something that can be spammed, as much as I wish it was.

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And I constantly wonder where the line is drawn between being too thin skinned and being a decent human being. But then I'm not surprised that these attitudes are linked to upbringings.

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Originally Posted by Cyreil

And I constantly wonder where the line is drawn between being too thin skinned and being a decent human being. But then I'm not surprised that these attitudes are linked to upbringings.

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Decent human being? Such a nebulous phrase. Within the context of FFXIV what does that even mean? For some it could mean not wasting the time if the three other party members. For others it is not forcing a certain play style on someone even for whatever reason. For others it may be extending a hand out and offer help.

Maybe I am just the odd one, but I am one of those it is a video game relax kind-of people. I try not to over complicate things by trying to inject or read into the actions of people.

End of the day it probably safe to assume that this has been blown largely out of proportion and the outcry is largely based around the general notion of misuse and intent to force one to do something they do not enjoy. Not so much that it is a major issue per-se. In the grand scheme the amount of people that propably use rescue in such a way is most likely less then the players currently happy with BLU. :p

This issue just sounds like certain people the OP has run into are just jerks. Abuse? Not in the slightest. Same as the conversations about people spamming their abilities in towns. /shrugs Does that mean we need to remove ability usage in cities because a tiny handful of people wanna spam Holy over and over?

If you are in a dungeon and someone Rescues you, ask them why, especially if there is no danger about. You then have 2 choices ... continue in the dungeon, or leave the dungeon and find another one. Staying in the dungeon and being an arse doesn't help either (this statement is in general and not aimed at a particular person).

So... a small minority of abusers is going to get another great tool removed or nerfed into uselessness? Sigh... it’s the waypoint markers all over again.

If somebody abuses it and flaunts it by following up with derogatory speech, report them, otherwise use the blacklist function and you won’t see them again.

I thought blacklisting just block tells.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Personally I think some players are tad too thin-skinned..

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..but but.. your character is named Tin Can lol

runs away from Awha

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Originally Posted by Quintessa

I thought blacklisting just block tells.



..but but.. your character is named Tin Can lol

runs away from Awha

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Blacklisting will block you from seeing any speech from someone (tells, say/shout/party/alliance/etc.) and it also keeps you from seeing PFs they open.

I have zero people on my blacklist. But then again, I'm a loner. I tend to think people aren't worth the effort to get worked up over. Good or bad.

I do not think I have ever got bothered enough at someone to even blacklist someone. Though, maybe it might because I am too lazy to be bothered.

I just ran a Copied Factory with a first time player and my Rescue was on CD the entire time as was my co-healer WHM. Was a pleasant surprise when the new player thanked both of us for keeping them alive till the end.

Have I ever not used Rescue for its intended purpose? Sure! When the raid leader calls for us to wipe it up and reset. I'll grab somebody as I am going over the edge and say over the voice chat "You wont take us alive!" ;)

Have I killed people with Rescue? Sadly yes, its when I accidentally hit that button when trying to press the button next to it.
"Did you just!?"... "Yes... <sad puppy dog eyes>"

Rescue is a pretty good skill, at least better than before.
Before it took a long time to travel between the target and the caster, so people ended up dead by the team they got near you.

However, every time I try to save a dps from a certain death, they just ran back into whichever mech I pull them from.
Please make it obvious that you have been pulled so they stop running away.

Just report healers that troll-pull you, and they will stop.

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Originally Posted by PharisHanasaki

Rescue is a pretty good skill, at least better than before.
Before it took a long time to travel between the target and the caster, so people ended up dead by the team they got near you.

However, every time I try to save a dps from a certain death, they just ran back into whichever mech I pull them from.
Please make it obvious that you have been pulled so they stop running away.

Just report healers that troll-pull you, and they will stop.

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:) You give FFXIV GM's far too much credit.

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Originally Posted by Awha

:) You give FFXIV GM's far too much credit.

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Because the few times I've reported, the outcome has been satisfactory.
And pretty fast too.

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Originally Posted by PharisHanasaki

Because the few times I've reported, the outcome has been satisfactory.
And pretty fast too.

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Unless you happen to know the person you are reporting or the friends of said person, or they tell ya when the come back but that seems odd. You have no real way of knowing if SE does anything regarding the issue outside the classic we will look into it. Cause I have done it a lot and have been told countless times I will be reported and never got an in game suspension. Do not get me wrong FFXIV GM team does respond quickly to issues of harassment, just when it comes to taking action unless you wave a neon sign around that I am doing x because I wish to harass y. I do not think they do much of anything.

Though if they did help ya and punish those in your case that is awesome. Though I rarely say much of anything ingame so maybe GM's just give players like that the benefit on the doubt.

It's a poorly designed skill. After playing a priest in WoW, 14's versions of it is just horrible. With 14's low tick rate server, by the time you use rescue the person you're trying to use it on most of the time still gets hit or whatever will happen to them. Rescue is an instant cast but IT'S NOT INSTANT in any way.

I just don't even have it on my bars. It's useless 98% of the time.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Unless you happen to know the person you are reporting or the friends of said person, or they tell ya when the come back but that seems odd. You have no real way of knowing if SE does anything regarding the issue outside the classic we will look into it. Cause I have done it a lot and have been told countless times I will be reported and never got an in game suspension. Do not get me wrong FFXIV GM team does respond quickly to issues of harassment, just when it comes to taking action unless you wave a neon sign around that I am doing x because I wish to harass y. I do not think they do much of anything.

Though if they did help ya and punish those in your case that is awesome. Though I rarely say much of anything ingame so maybe GM's just give players like that the benefit on the doubt.

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Yes, you said so yourself. I know who I reported, and I know they got warned.
Their attitude gave a 180 degree turn.

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Originally Posted by Krojack

It's a poorly designed skill. After playing a priest in WoW, 14's versions of it is just horrible. With 14's low tick rate server, by the time you use rescue the person you're trying to use it on most of the time still gets hit or whatever will happen to them. Rescue is an instant cast but IT'S NOT INSTANT in any way.

I just don't even have it on my bars. It's useless 98% of the time.

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It is not useless.
But 95% of the healers do not even care about their group enough to notice when a rescue will come in handy.
A lot of healers don't even look at the party list to check whether someone has already raised a person, even if you spam a macro.
So I'm not surprised a lot of people find it absolutely useless.

I wouldn't be against some tweeks to make it better, but it's definitely not useless.

I can count the number of times it was used on me to troll on one hand... I can't count the number of times I used it to prevent damage, or the number of times a healer from my static saved a greedy damage dealer. At some point, we even had it in our strats, to maximize greeding, and it was the cause of much fun...

So no, leave Rescue as it is, it's efficient, fits its purpose, and even if it's used to troll... apart from not having the cobtrol over your character for a sec, there's no way it can kill you in most content. Sure, it can in instant death mechanics, but that's... Savage and Ultimate? So content where death is expected (during prog, that is) or so hard to get into that you can't juste have slippery fingers and walk in.

LEVELS AST, RIGS DF TO ALWAYS GET IN A GROUP WITH OSITHA, PROCEEDS TO USE RESCUE ON COOL DOWN 5 TIMES TO MAKE IT NOW BOTH HANDS.


:) :)

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Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe

I can count the number of times it was used on me to troll on one hand... I can't count the number of times I used it to prevent damage, or the number of times a healer from my static saved a greedy damage dealer. At some point, we even had it in our strats, to maximize greeding, and it was the cause of much fun...

So no, leave Rescue as it is, it's efficient, fits its purpose, and even if it's used to troll... apart from not having the cobtrol over your character for a sec, there's no way it can kill you in most content. Sure, it can in instant death mechanics, but that's... Savage and Ultimate? So content where death is expected (during prog, that is) or so hard to get into that you can't juste have slippery fingers and walk in.

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I can count the number of times it was used on me in a helpful way on one hand. I need to take off my socks to count the number of times I died due to rescue.

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Originally Posted by Krojack

It's a poorly designed skill. After playing a priest in WoW, 14's versions of it is just horrible. With 14's low tick rate server, by the time you use rescue the person you're trying to use it on most of the time still gets hit or whatever will happen to them. Rescue is an instant cast but IT'S NOT INSTANT in any way.

I just don't even have it on my bars. It's useless 98% of the time.

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Oh yeah phrased it better than me, this is my biggest problem with rescue
Compared to life grip and heck, even swtor's version, FF's is a headache and a half to use. Most of the time it feels like a welp, I got nothing else so hope this works... it just doesn't feel good to use. Even when it does work it's more of a holy crap thank God that actually worked than anything lol

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Originally Posted by Awha

Meh, as I said in another post for me it is far from abuse, but that is mostly for personal reasons since I grew up around abuse between my parents, but if you want to lump trolling as abuse by all means go for it. I personally do not consider trolling abuse. Just my personal take on it, just for me it seems silly to lump a minor inconvenience or trolling with abuse but hey if you do that is cool.

Personally I think some players are tad too thin-skinned or take things far too personally and get worked up over nothing. End of the day it is a minor inconvenience at worst. It is like what a 2 min cool down? It is certainly not something that can be spammed, as much as I wish it was.

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I get ya, and have a similar back ground but cant let personal experience cloud your definition of a word.

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Originally Posted by Quintessa

LEVELS AST, RIGS DF TO ALWAYS GET IN A GROUP WITH OSITHA, PROCEEDS TO USE RESCUE ON COOL DOWN 5 TIMES TO MAKE IT NOW BOTH HANDS.


:) :)

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xD

Alright, please change Rescue before Quintessa levels her ast.

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Originally Posted by Yue_Amariyo

I get ya, and have a similar back ground but cant let personal experience cloud your definition of a word.

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I get ya and in the strictest sense sure it is abuse in sense it is being used as not intended. Let us be real when most people use abuse in this context they do not mean it simply as a misuse of a skill.

The reality is we live in a world that is quick to tbrow around trigger words like abuse, harassment, toxic etc . . . they are buzz words and personally even if the definition fits in the strictest sense. In the grand scheme trolling someone using a skill to bother someone honestly should be fairly low on the spectrum of what is toxic, harrassment, abuse etc . . . but that is me.

I do not care enough about my fellow player to honestly care all that much if they think I am a toxic. harassing or abusing them in a video game. Sure on some deeper level it may annoy me players in this game are so thin skinned that little things like momentarily stripping them of control is enough to send them into a fit be it minor or major. I am of the mindset no one is solely innocent something must have triggered the reaction. Granted in some rare cases maybe it was nothing, but often times when someone ends up complaining about behavior done to them they are not solely innocent.

Peeps should learn from these little things like when someone pulls for them, or if someone calls them out for poor damage. Sure it is nice when advicd is given a friendly manner. Though even rude advice can still be constructive just depends on how you choose to receive it. One can play the victim card, or they can take the proactive approach and try to figure out what they could have done that would warrant such a reaction. Has little to do with the meaning of yhe word, and more so people hiding behind the meaning as a means of not having to accept some form of personal responsibility for their actions.

I've used rescue for many reasons, to move a player out of a mechanic they hadn't realized would have ended them,
I've used it to pull the tank further to show him/her which direction to go, to force them to pull larger mobs-
I used it most recently bc an FC mate just stood in every mechanic & got hit knowing I'd heal him, typically I just let people die when they refuse to move out of mechanics but I had enough & just rescued him each time it was up bc his playstyle irks me.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

A tank pulling 1 group at the time is not a tank Lol

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It depends the situation.
For a thin-paper tank better one group at time than a wipe at time.
For healers with abysmal healing force better one group at time than a wipe at time.
For dps force single-targetting everything, better one group at time and give healer room for the missing dps.
Last but not least, when all and everything is going horribly wrong, better half hour of penalty than one hour of suffering. Maybe.

As healer, I found rescue so much handy to keep in track the impatient ranged dps leaving the platform on Atomos.

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Originally Posted by Awha

I get ya and in the strictest sense sure it is abuse in sense it is being used as not intended. Let us be real when most people use abuse in this context they do not mean it simply as a misuse of a skill.

The reality is we live in a world that is quick to tbrow around trigger words like abuse, harassment, toxic etc . . . they are buzz words and personally even if the definition fits in the strictest sense. In the grand scheme trolling someone using a skill to bother someone honestly should be fairly low on the spectrum of what is toxic, harrassment, abuse etc . . . but that is me.

I do not care enough about my fellow player to honestly care all that much if they think I am a toxic. harassing or abusing them in a video game. Sure on some deeper level it may annoy me players in this game are so thin skinned that little things like momentarily stripping them of control is enough to send them into a fit be it minor or major. I am of the mindset no one is solely innocent something must have triggered the reaction. Granted in some rare cases maybe it was nothing, but often times when someone ends up complaining about behavior done to them they are not solely innocent.

Peeps should learn from these little things like when someone pulls for them, or if someone calls them out for poor damage. Sure it is nice when advicd is given a friendly manner. Though even rude advice can still be constructive just depends on how you choose to receive it. One can play the victim card, or they can take the proactive approach and try to figure out what they could have done that would warrant such a reaction. Has little to do with the meaning of yhe word, and more so people hiding behind the meaning as a means of not having to accept some form of personal responsibility for their actions.

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honestly, and I might be reaching, id say you need somewhere to go to find someone to talk you.. you come off hurt/ hurting by something like very defensive as you seem complacent with victim blaming. Which btw is never a good thing. It is good to call out people who play victims, in situations like ppl act like the butt.. but when called out cry.
Real victims are just that victims. They had little or no control over their circumstances.

Like the first time I tanked, someone kept pulling for me. I asked them not to as I was not going to learn otherwise. I left the dungeon after the person tried to pick a fight.
Not everyone uses the word abuse, or toxic as a hashtag buzzword, but as the really what they are describing. You cant, nor shouldn't be cynical over every word use.. as io stated I used it in the proper respects.

tbh i think you have some personal underlying issues you should seek help on, it may do you good.. that way you not trying to word police people, or acting cynical to every person you meet.

I was like you at one point in my life, and trust me it isnt a healthy way to live.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

A tank pulling 1 group at the time is not a tank Lol

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if you are still learning to tank, then ya... not every player in every dungeon is geared/skilled to handle pulling wall to wall. It is a group effort, it crazy people try it in starter dungeons and new players, like myself end up not knowing wtf to do. wipes happen and ppl blame game each other.

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Originally Posted by Yue_Amariyo

if you are still learning to tank, then ya... not every player in every dungeon is geared/skilled to handle pulling wall to wall. It is a group effort, it crazy people try it in starter dungeons and new players, like myself end up not knowing wtf to do. wipes happen and ppl blame game each other.

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This, if it's towards the end of the game I get being a little impatient but if the dungeon is in the 1-40 range I don't think cutting the tank some slack is too much to ask for.

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Originally Posted by Yue_Amariyo

if you are still learning to tank, then ya... not every player in every dungeon is geared/skilled to handle pulling wall to wall. It is a group effort, it crazy people try it in starter dungeons and new players, like myself end up not knowing wtf to do. wipes happen and ppl blame game each other.

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May not be the most fun for the healer but if the group has AoE even in the start dungeon as a new healer if you spam heals on the tank they "should" not die. Healer was my first job I leveled when I started and I had a tank that did large pulls right out the bat in the first dungeon, only time they died was when I tried to do some damage during the large pull at those levels. This was also before GLA had a baseline damage AoE skill.

It is possible to get through.