How would an optional, official parser be toxic?

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Originally Posted by Kallera

People will attempt to game the parser system for themselves and others, especially if said information can be looked up and the person judged for content outside of raids. Uploading a parser system will make people a hell of a lot more paranoid about the game and whether they can participate in content, or whether their attempting to learn, or the actions of their teammates, will affect their worth as a player.

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They could do what WoW does, where they don't officially have one, but they allow them to exist.

This removes the feeling of requirement from it, while those who still want it have the option for it.

Sorry for the book - I don't check anything on the weekends.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

There is a big difference between being able to clear the fight and performing to a degree someone else deems "worthy." Generally, the fights are tuned so if you know your rotation and can do mechanics, you can clear - even in savage (ultimate may be another story).

Yes, SE gave us tools to arbitrarily include and exclude people at our own leisure based on 'have you killed it before?' and 'we need this kind of party.' :p I'm sure you'd have been thrilled getting 3 samurai in ByakkoEX trying to use tank LB3 without such features. Or it might have forced people to do the fight the supposed intended way. Then again, I can't recall many co-operative games even telling you if someone is new to a fight to begin with.

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I'm merely refuting your personal opinion here with direct examples of in game features designed to accomplish the same thing that you suggested they're against. Not only designed, but they've been expanded on over the years too. Citing the mitigation of anti-exclusionary practices as justification for avoiding parsers just doesn't make sense for that reason alone. It's directly contradictory and hypocritical.

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*Shakes head.*

It has little to do with what I think is toxic. The developers said they wouldn't implement for their own reasons. People are always going to be jerks and the developers think parsers will give jerks more incentive to treat people poorly. What anyone thinks in this thread is irrelevant.

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My major hangup on this - is the implication that the developers are always right. It's more than possible that Yoshi's P's stance on parsers is flat out bad the community or the health of the game. It's also just as possible that he's right. I'm ok with people taking a stance if they can logically defend their POV, but I don't subscribe to the notion that because Yoshi says it, it must be true, which I admit you didn't specifically state, but you VERY heavily implied it.

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To answer the thread's title: the players are what would make the parser toxic, but inherently, it would not be.

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Players can't make an objective tool into something it is not. A parser cannot be toxic. People can be toxic, but justifying that people who are not naturally toxic would suddenly become so or people who are toxic would become more toxic is an incredibly challenging endeavor.

Speaking personally I am for a fully unmitigated party wide official parser. I do very firmly believe that there will be a brief period of growing pains while the community acclimates, but it will be for the better in the long term.

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I'm aware that Koike's incident was not about parsing, but that does not negate the fact that it was a tool that was used to help accomplish that group's goal. It comes down to jerks being jerks and giving them a tool to give them another way to be a jerk. It doesn't matter it was a "sideline" - it was there and it was used in a manner SE is trying to avoid be used.

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So was chat, emotes, live streams, and actual in game content. Why are they excluded from being painted in a negative light?

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Forums are actively enforced by moderators hired by SE. Chat is fixed with minimizing the chat window or blocking someone. Emotes simply need you to move away. Was this supposed to be clever? :thinking: I found it silly.

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And in game is actively enforced by GMs hired by SE.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I'd love to hear what these other places are because a huge chunk of the toxicity in WoW I encountered was related to parsers. It may even have been most of it.

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It's not toxic to be called out for AFKing in LFR.
It's not toxic to be called out for not switching to an add.
It's not toxic to be asked to do more damage.

What kind of actual parser related toxicity did you experience in WoW and when?

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And I disagree with calling it a coddle mentality. Since when is it coddling to want to reduce the chance of encountering harassment as a victim or observer? It's a bad thing now to want to minimise needless drama? What a depressing thought.

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That's quite LITERALLY the definition of coddling... LOL.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/coddle

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

I find WoW to be considerably less toxic than FF14 at this point, which is saying a lot.

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Agreed.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Some people come to the game to escape and/or relax.

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Cool. I love that. Stick to non battle content if you want to relax. Battle should be engaging and you should be putting max effort in at all times (note that max effort =/= equal performance, I would never expect that), but push buttons please!

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

Sadly parsers are most of the time using as epeen/elitist meter than anything. Usually the rotations arent THAT hard that need a program to say to you "hey wrong rotation, last one was better " you can just use a dummy and practice, and fflogs high percentiles are bloated with those epeen meters by inflating their job focusing every possible buff of the raid on them to increase "muh dps". Even if overall fflogs give a general image of each job potential, some of their parses are heavily tampered favouring of the focused job in detriment of the rest

Even on WoW top raiders started to stop using those meters because players stopped caring about mechanics to not lose dps forcing the healers to go on overload healing damage that shouldnt be happening on the first place and covering for their intentional messes

So basically previous experiences show that they are more of a hassle than a help, and unless someone is really slacking off (sometimes really easy to spot when they have super low aggro despite not using their aggro tools), if people start using the "low dps meter" card to kick people they are free to report their asses.

Usually a single person is not a cause for a enrage unless its really slacking or not having low ilv. One is fixed by paying a minimun of atention during the fight and the other by using party finder and putting minimum ilv to join as a security blanket

The old "is X person fault we enraged" is quite rare and more like " almost half of the raid or more didnt use their damage tools properly" or "people kept dieing for not doing mechanics properly and our damage went to the garbage bin"

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If there was a post on the forums that contained more hyperbole, blatant misinformation and inaccuracies I'd be genuinely surprised.

1) No Parsers are not epeen elitist meters more than anything.

2) FFlogs high percentiles are not bloated. Sure the very top ones are, but if you knew anything about log analysis, they're TRIVIAL to filter out when doing analysis. I get decently high %'s playing 2 hours a week, without putting an iota of effort into the game.

3) WoW top raiders still use parsers. Nearly every single one of them... Not sure where you got this idea from.

4) Contrary to your imagination - the best players in the world don't do better DPS by ignoring mechanics, they do it by managing their uptime efficiently.

5) How you can cite "Usually a single person is not a cause for a enrage unless its really slacking or not having low ilv" with no experience in actual difficult content is hilarious. Ask any person who pugs. This is a DAILY occurrence.

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Originally Posted by Adeacia

When I play my BRD, or another dps, I'm always looking at ways to make my damage go up. I examine my skills and try to come up with new rotations that will increase my dps. I don't need a parser to know if my damage is going up or not, since I know for a fact that it is due to the efficiency increase. I also don't need one to see if another player is performing poorly. Play the game enough and it's pretty clear most of the time.

I'm usually on the fence about parsers though as I don't like them, but do see the usefulness of them. However the more I see people try to give their reasons for having them, the more I lean to not wanting them at all. Your arguements aren't helping your case, they are hurting it.

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Your logs strongly indicate that your feelycraft needs some actual math to feel better about itself.

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Originally Posted by Yshnal

So, apparently we need parsers partly due to bad players, so that we can point out that they're playing poorly, and so that they can't deny the data. Okay. Now tell me, how will a parser keep track of players doing the mechanics properly? What's preventing said bad players (and others that don't even fit in their same category of bad) to go all crazy on the meter's numbers and ignore everything else?

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This is a common misconception that most non-raiders or poorly skilled players make (not calling you bad, simply stating the source I most frequently cite this statement). Not doing mechanics is not how you get better DPS. That's how you wipe. The best players do mechanics and do top DPS because they know how to manage uptime efficiently. To suggest anything otherwise is nothing short of blatant misinformation.

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Originally Posted by Bluvirus

personally I'm neutral when it comes to parsers. I can see where they could help if the individual wants but I, myself, don't care to know numbers. I feel numbers do not reflect the instance or the fight since every fight in one way shape or form can be different. My parse was uploaded to fflogs without my knowledge or consent. That is something I have a problem with. If you use it to better yourself, cool, but when you parse and upload someone else's numbers without them knowing it, that isn't cool at all.

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You dismissing numbers because you feel they don't provide context is factually inaccurate. The context is there if you look. The only thing logs don't show are fictional excuses.

Rather than be upset about it, why not use it to improve?

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Originally Posted by redcurrant18

Never ask a lady's age, and never ask me for my damage output/healing numbers. There's plenty of other reasons to cause drama during a run without dealing with a parser :)

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You mean stuff like permanent enrages even when mechanics are done perfectly? Oh wait.

Here's the thing. Parsers are not toxic. Parsers do not cause anything. Literally, all they do is parse.

This follows a similar conversation the gun debate. Guns do not kill people. Guns shoot bullets. That is specifically all that they do. It's how the gun is used, which is determined by the user - the human behind the gun.

Mmm. But I think I need an even closer analogy to that for parsers, as we're talking about people judging you based on information provided by these parsers, rather then something simple like bad people using guns to do bad things. This isn't exactly "bad" people using parsers to do bad things. It's shrewd (astute, or sharp in partical matters) people using parsers to generally make their own lives easier.

When I think about how that could be analogous to anything, I come up with this.

What if your school/college transcripts were public record? You apply for a job, the employer just plugs your name into a database, and boom, they see your academic transcript. They see you didn't make an A in a particular field. They don't even bother calling you or messaging you to give you the well known "We'll call you in two weeks" let down. Hell, it could be that they automated this, and no human ever saw your application. A machine that employers are finding popular for weeding out people quickly, and without their effort, has judged you unworthy.

Of course, the majority of people, the ones who don't have the greatest of transcripts, would hate this system, and thus demand that schools only issue them upon request by the transcript holder themselves. Something like the current system we have.

And the few who simply have supperb transcripts would be pleased without the hold on transcripts. less effort on their part to provide additional information to employers, and they are found by employers much easier.

This sounds a lot like the current parsing system, and the community at the end game using it, doesn't it?

Naturally, the argument exists that we should be able to view our own transcripts (parses). SE actually doesn't care if you do monitor your own parses. Colleges let you monitor your own transcript. However, because of the control of it, Colleges can actually say that only you can see your own transcripts, and you can not see anyone else's transcripts. SE could have this power quite simply. Have a toggle selection in the chat logs, automatically set to "off", that publishes your battle log information in other people's battle logs. Granted, those other people would be pissed that they can't use that to judge you, and demand you turn it on.

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Originally Posted by ChaseNetwork

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I dont understand your point.

Because what you says (your logs are shown even if you dont want) is already the situation we have.

And for the battlelog lock to anyone else, yes it is an idea. Not sure a good one :-°

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Then why is ACT ok? The 5 year olds have been flying around in fighter jets for years and the game is in one piece.

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This isn't about ACT, this is about parsers. I don't necessarily approve of it either since it's technically against the ToS as well. Until we get actual addon support from SE itself that will be my stance on all things related to addons. If they decided that certain things were permitted officially like ACT or parsers, then it's not really my call. My opinion on them would essentially be irrelevant. However, a public parser would do more harm than good imo. I'd probably be "fine" with something like ACT though since I've used DBM in WoW for years. But WoW has addon support and actually develops some content around things like DBM.

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Originally Posted by Aerlana

I dont understand your point.

Because what you says (your logs are shown even if you dont want) is already the situation we have.

And for the battlelog lock to anyone else, yes it is an idea. Not sure a good one :-°

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It's in response to the subject. "How would an optional official parser be toxic". Explained the nature of the situation, and then described what about that nature resulted in the current atmosphere.

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Originally Posted by ChaseNetwork

What if your school/college transcripts were public record?

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Its a nice analogy except it needs the caveat of the transcripts being taken from random surprise quiz that you did not know contributed to your final grade, or suddenly you are doing exams that were meant for students one year above you (iLvl difference)

As for the topic, I don't think having an official parser will be toxic in itself, but it will provide toxic players with an excuse to "officially" use it against others. Be it calling people out in a toxic manner or silently excluding players due to more availability to record logs and post them on fflogs.

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Originally Posted by SleepyNeko

Its a nice analogy except it needs the caveat of the transcripts being taken from random surprise quiz that you did not know contributed to your final grade, or suddenly you are doing exams that were meant for students one year above you (iLvl difference)

As for the topic, I don't think having an official parser will be toxic in itself, but it will provide toxic players with an excuse to "officially" use it against others. Be it calling people out in a toxic manner or silently excluding players due to more availability to record logs and post them on fflogs.

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And the players using it to be toxic can be reported and reprimanded just like they can now. As far as being exclusionary due to more availability...as it stands now there's 100% availability on all the logs people care about. So what would be the actual change here?

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

And the players using it to be toxic can be reported and reprimanded just like they can now. As far as being exclusionary due to more availability...as it stands now there's 100% availability on all the logs people care about. So what would be the actual change here?

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Well the "silently" excluding people cannot be reported. You can argue that people are doing it already but it is still true that having an official parser will "promote" more people to use it leading this scenario to occur more often.

It is same as the WoW Addon, even though they don't support it, they also don't restrict it, therefore it is more accepted to drop "under performing" players and benching others.

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Originally Posted by SleepyNeko

It is same as the WoW Addon, even though they don't support it, they also don't restrict it, therefore it is more accepted to drop "under performing" players and benching others.

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If a player has shown consistently that they're under-performing over and over again, literally holding back the group from a clear or from finishing whatever piece of content that they're working on, and they also refuse or just completely ignore on improving and good advice; I'm not entirely sure how that's considered toxic to simply bench them.

It's rude to expect other players to hold your hand, carry, or coddle you when their own time is just as important as your own. I'm not sure why others expect everyone else to put in double the effort when they can't even put 25% in sometimes.

You bench football or sports players that are not performing to the team's and coach's standards (players who make a lot of fouls or mistakes), I'm not sure why we can't hold those same standards and expectations in an MMO which is not only a competitive game, but also a team effort.

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Originally Posted by SleepyNeko

Well the "silently" excluding people cannot be reported. You can argue that people are doing it already but it is still true that having an official parser will "promote" more people to use it leading this scenario to occur more often.

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"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." You can't just say "but it is still true that..." and expect that to suddenly become the truth.

I don't believe an official parser would lead to your proposed scenario at all. All the tools exist to do what you're afraid of today, and everybody who cares to use them that way already use them that way, because, as you said, it cannot be reported. So nothing would change on that front.

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Originally Posted by SleepyNeko

It is same as the WoW Addon, even though they don't support it, they also don't restrict it, therefore it is more accepted to drop "under performing" players and benching others.

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Players are usually dropped in savage content where they are expected to perform. If you want to learn the raid, then you should be joining practice parties instead of holding everyone else back. There's also a good bunch that don't even know how to play their class and end up getting carried by the rest of their team. Instead of getting carried, they should be held back until they know what they're doing.

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Originally Posted by Yshnal

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Now tell me, how will a parser keep track of players doing the mechanics properly?
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The parser I've heard about absolutely can already do exactly this.


It can tell you who got hit by what, who died, etc...
As long as you care to look into the data it parsed.

I don't know how to quote multiple comments so please forgive me for the lack of context.

I think there are too many scenarios and variables on this issue for my single line comment to be correct, so here are some of the things I have in mind about this in general:

When I said "under performing" in quotes I meant it in a relative sense, I was mainly alluring to the players that have enough numbers for the content but are not as high as other, better performing players.
I didn't mention savage content, but obviously the amount of skill gating on content by players depends on the difficulty of the content.

"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." - True enough, even though it makes for a bad argument because if everything required evidence then I would required evidence that your quote holds truth at all times. I believe that it was obvious that the more people that parse or have parser, the more likely that this scenario will occur, I don't believe this is a far-fetched hypothesis. The assumption that everyone that wants to/will use parser is already using them, then there is no point to add an official parser because all the people that wishes to use parsers are already using it.

Players are not usually dropped in savage content, at least not in Typhon. I don't have a static so I only ever do Savage/Ex with pugs and usually parties just disband instead of players being dropped because of the Japanese culture there and there isn't a good way to shift blame to a particular player to drop. Ofcourse if you are in a static then its fine and if you are using the parser to look for potential recruits I'm all for it, however there are no limitations on the usage of parser and it can be exploited, especially along with fflogs to hurt the more casual player base, even outside of savage/ex content.

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Originally Posted by SleepyNeko

"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." - True enough, even though it makes for a bad argument because if everything required evidence then I would required evidence that your quote holds truth at all times. I believe that it was obvious that the more people that parse or have parser, the more likely that this scenario will occur, I don't believe this is a far-fetched hypothesis. The assumption that everyone that wants to/will use parser is already using them, then there is no point to add an official parser because all the people that wishes to use parsers are already using it.

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We're not talking parsers when we're talking about excluding players from quiet dismissals from Extremes or Savage. We're talking logs, and that's something every player has access to--something that everybody who's going to dismiss based on past recorded performance has access to. An official parser will not change people's access to the FFLogs.

I've read that some people used to use Dummies to calculate dps, not sure how it worked but maybe that can be used.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

We're not talking parsers when we're talking about excluding players from quiet dismissals from Extremes or Savage. We're talking logs, and that's something every player has access to--something that everybody who's going to dismiss based on past recorded performance has access to. An official parser will not change people's access to the FFLogs.

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Yes, but not everyone is on FFlogs, the more people that parse, the more people will unwillingly be put on FFlogs.

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Originally Posted by SleepyNeko

I've read that some people used to use Dummies to calculate dps, not sure how it worked but maybe that can be used.

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Dummies are great to practice your rotations on, sure, but not to calculate your DPS because dummies have much more health on them in order to make up for the fact that you're not dodging mechanics.

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Originally Posted by SleepyNeko

Players are not usually dropped in savage content, at least not in Typhon. I don't have a static so I only ever do Savage/Ex with pugs and usually parties just disband instead of players being dropped because of the Japanese culture there and there isn't a good way to shift blame to a particular player to drop. Ofcourse if you are in a static then its fine and if you are using the parser to look for potential recruits I'm all for it, however there are no limitations on the usage of parser and it can be exploited, especially along with fflogs to hurt the more casual player base, even outside of savage/ex content.

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In NA, players are dropped when they're the ones holding back the party. Parties will disband when multiple people are failing especially when its a farm party. And there's always a reason why the party keeps failing, with it usually being players not knowing the mechanics, not knowing how to play their class, or their lack of coordination. The only thing an official parse will do, is atleast help those who have no idea what they're doing and point out what they're doing wrong instead of being carried along from the start. The worst being gating those kinds of people from parties that they have no place in at all.

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Originally Posted by Daibunnie

In NA, players are dropped when they're the ones holding back the party. Parties will disband when multiple people are failing especially when its a farm party. And there's always a reason why the party keeps failing, with it usually being players not knowing the mechanics, not knowing how to play their class, or their lack of coordination. The only thing an official parse will do, is atleast help those who have no idea what they're doing and point out what they're doing wrong instead of being carried along from the start. The worst being gating those kinds of people from parties that they have no place in at all.

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How are practice parties or first time clear parties treated in NA? Do players get kicked immediately before the raid even starts because they are vetted through FFlogs?

I agree there should be some performance expectations on farm groups.

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Originally Posted by SleepyNeko

I've read that some people used to use Dummies to calculate dps, not sure how it worked but maybe that can be used.

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

Dummies are great to practice your rotations on, sure, but not to calculate your DPS because dummies have much more health on them in order to make up for the fact that you're not dodging mechanics.

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Additionally, the dummies do not take into account any sort of raid buffs, with heavily influence the amount of personal DPS a player is doing. Especially for some jobs that are reliant on others for a portion of their damage (e.g., BRD/MCH are reliant on a DRG for 5% of their damage; BRD is reliant on DRG/SCH for crit buffs; etc.).

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Originally Posted by SleepyNeko

How are practice parties or first time clear parties treated in NA? Do players get kicked immediately before the raid even starts because they are vetted through FFlogs?

I agree there should be some performance expectations on farm groups.

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On NA, people doing learning/clear parties in PF, and state the amount of progress required to enter (e.g., fresh prog; blind prog; add phase; final phase; enrage clear). After they clear, they generally do farm parties (also in PF) stating “FARM” and usually naming the strat being used.

Players that set up the farm parties right automatically exclude those who haven’t cleared by selecting the appropriate PF options (Duty Complete); for those who don’t set it up properly to exclude bonuses, if they zone in and see a bonus, they ask who has the bonus. They can either opt to help the person, or they exit out of the duty and automatically disband the entire party. It tends to be the latter, as the party was set up for the purpose of farming (as stated in the description), and the person who hasn’t clear snuck into the party without being honest that they hadn’t cleared the content—the person with the bonus usually tends not to speak up regardless, so that doesn’t help.

I am hesitant to help people who sneak into farms, because every time I have, they have clearly never been to enrage as they claim and they are more so of a hinderance to the progression of the farm. I remember pugging Sigmascape and in V6S the weekly 2-chest group I was in had a RDM join who had “seen enrage”, and then proceeded to die to every mechanic. Eventually they were just left dead on the floor because it was too much on the healer’s MP to continue raising them.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Snip.

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I see, thank you for your reply. A bit off topic now, but does "Duty Complete" from duty finder not work when you are in a Party?

On topic: I'm not against using parser for yourself to help improve your performance, but as many others have pointed out, all the people who wishes to use parsers already use them, so what benefits do we gain by making an official one?

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Originally Posted by SleepyNeko

I see, thank you for your reply. A bit off topic now, but does "Duty Complete" from duty finder not work when you are in a Party?

On topic: I'm not against using parser for yourself to help improve your performance, but as many others have pointed out, all the people who wishes to use parsers already use them, so what benefits do we gain by making an official one?

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You can queue into Raid Finder with the Duty Complete options as far as I know, but NA does not use Raid Finder for current Savage/Extreme content. We use Party Finder for that. Duty Finder proper does not have a Duty Complete option at all, so you can’t use it for older content not in Raid Finder.

PS4 players want to parse and they don’t have any options for it short of getting their PC friends to parse for them. But they cannot see the parses in real-time; just after the fact if the PC player uploads them to FFLogs. So, no, the people who do want to parse do not all have the option to do so (short of buying a PC).

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Originally Posted by SleepyNeko

On topic: I'm not against using parser for yourself to help improve your performance, but as many others have pointed out, all the people who wishes to use parsers already use them, so what benefits do we gain by making an official one?

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We have PS4 players, who can't parse themself and are 100% dependent on PC players to parse them and many are not quiet happy with this state, they want to be able to parse themself.
PS4 players are forced to fly blind, while PC players have the opportunityto remove their blindfold and see their performance themself.
It's mostly a question for equal opportunity.

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Originally Posted by Legion88

We have PS4 players, who can't parse themself and are 100% dependent on PC players to parse them and many are not quiet happy with this state, they want to be able to parse themself.
PS4 players are forced to fly blind, while PC players have the opportunityto remove their blindfold and see their performance themself.
It's mostly a question for equal opportunity.

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I don't understand how people can play online FF on console. I learned my lesson from FF11 when i started out on PS2. Console will get outdated while the game will keep going on the years and you will be left behind as the updates will not work well on your old console.

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Originally Posted by Dirwen

I don't understand how people can play online FF on console. I learned my lesson from FF11 when i started out on PS2. Console will get outdated while the game will keep going on the years and you will be left behind as the updates will not work well on your old console.

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I don't understand why it's a hard concept to understand that some are not able to purchase a decent laptop due to life obligations or can't afford to build a tower. $300 doesn't come cheap for everyone.

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Originally Posted by SleepyNeko

Yes, but not everyone is on FFlogs, the more people that parse, the more people will unwillingly be put on FFlogs.

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People who don't have logs or elect to hide them are typically kicked from weekly Savage parties. They can be kicked from EX Primals too, but that isn't as common. Basically, the exclude you're accusing an official parse of already happens. Not using FFlogs only makes people assume you have something to hide. Therefore, an official parse or allowing us to openly discuss parses in-game wouldn't change anything at all. Not when it comes to exclusion.

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Originally Posted by SleepyNeko

On topic: I'm not against using parser for yourself to help improve your performance, but as many others have pointed out, all the people who wishes to use parsers already use them, so what benefits do we gain by making an official one?

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As stated above, PS4 players have no access to parses. Considering a sizable portion of the playerbase plays on PS4, they're entirely reliant on someone else to see their damage. Furthermore, we aren't allowed to discuss parses openly without fear of getting our accounts banned. Whether to remove players who have no business joining clear/farm parties or explain how someone might improve, we can't do anything except silently kick. The sheer amount of people who are shocked when I tell them how much more damage they could be doing is baffling. A good amount of people don't even realize they're doing anything wrong.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

I don't understand why it's a hard concept to understand that some are not able to purchase a decent laptop due to life obligations or can't afford to build a tower. $300 doesn't come cheap for everyone.

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Consoles are pretty expensive themselves but I'm not a gamer so yea... Unless only playing FF14 is considered being a gamer.

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Originally Posted by Dirwen

Consoles are pretty expensive themselves but I'm not a gamer so yea... Unless only playing FF14 is considered being a gamer.

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What? What ...even...

...ok? I don't know how to respond to this.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

What? What ...even...

...ok? I don't know how to respond to this.

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Sorry if it sounded confusing. I use a cheap desktop computer is why. Granted it only scored a standard on the SB benchmark so dodging mechs can be a pain sometimes. Price wise its the same as a console is what I was trying to get at. However, I'm assuming you are talking about gaming rigs that are high priced stuff.

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Originally Posted by Dirwen

Sorry if it sounded confusing. I use a cheap desktop computer is why. Granted it only scored a standard on the SB benchmark so dodging mechs can be a pain sometimes. Price wise its the same as a console is what I was trying to get at. However, I'm assuming you are talking about gaming rigs that are high priced stuff.

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No, I was thinking of the basic desktop - you still have to get a monitor, buy a decent graphics card if the desktop isn't at least decent enough to run at 18-24FPS, etc. My laptop can't handle ...pretty much anything beyond 4-mans because of visual effects. PS4, I've already had for other games prior to me subbing for FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

No, I was thinking of the basic desktop - you still have to get a monitor, buy a decent graphics card if the desktop isn't at least decent enough to run at 18-24FPS, etc. My laptop can't handle ...pretty much anything beyond 4-mans because of visual effects. PS4, I've already had for other games prior to me subbing for FFXIV.

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I don't think laptops are good for gaming due to the heating issue. Meh I suppose your right in that console is better unless you had a gaming computer. Also I probably won't be able to try high end content as I won't trust my computer when it comes to dodging mechs.

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Originally Posted by Dirwen

I don't think laptops are good for gaming due to the heating issue. Meh I suppose your right in that console is better unless you had a gaming computer. Also I probably won't be able to try high end content as I won't trust my computer when it comes to dodging mechs.

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I’ve played on a laptop for almost 2 years; it doesn’t overheat. Granted, I use an additional cooling fan for it, but even before I bought that I never suffered from problems with it overheating, and I can game on it all day with zero performance loss. I fight more with my internet than I do with my actual laptop; it works quite nicely until I can build myself a proper rig.

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Originally Posted by Dirwen

I don't think laptops are good for gaming due to the heating issue. Meh I suppose your right in that console is better unless you had a gaming computer. Also I probably won't be able to try high end content as I won't trust my computer when it comes to dodging mechs.

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A crew I ran with once took me into the Phantom Train, and holy hell, it was a nightmare dealing with the choppy framerate, my attacks either getting delayed or not going off at all (and I was a monk at the time, so bye bye rotation), and my old laptop got way too warm. As far as consoles go...meh...I wouldn't buy a PS4 solely for FFXIV. I mean, to each their own, but that wouldn't be the sole reason for me personally.

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Originally Posted by Dirwen

I don't understand how people can play online FF on console. I learned my lesson from FF11 when i started out on PS2. Console will get outdated while the game will keep going on the years and you will be left behind as the updates will not work well on your old console.

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I don't understand how people can play on a laptop / computer. I prefer sitting on my comfortable sofa looking at a big tv screen anytime.
I have a PS4 4 Pro currently and no problems with updates whatsoever. And once the PS5 is realised I will just buy that - and who knows if FF14 is still alive then.
No, but seriously, it's just a matter of taste. Some simply prefer consoles while others prefer playing on computer ^^

The thing is, if you have money, you go for a Gaming PC for unrivaled power.
If you have less money, you go for a console with games mostly optimised for its power.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I’ve played on a laptop for almost 2 years; it doesn’t overheat. Granted, I use an additional cooling fan for it, but even before I bought that I never suffered from problems with it overheating, and I can game on it all day with zero performance loss. I fight more with my internet than I do with my actual laptop; it works quite nicely until I can build myself a proper rig.

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How do you know if it's your computer or the internet that is the problem? I always see myself dodging mechs but still get hit so there must be a delay and unsure if its my computer or the net.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

People who don't have logs or elect to hide them are typically kicked from weekly Savage parties. They can be kicked from EX Primals too, but that isn't as common. Basically, the exclude you're accusing an official parse of already happens. Not using FFlogs only makes people assume you have something to hide.

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And this is why FFlogs is Toxic.

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

And this is why FFlogs is Toxic.

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Why? If you're joining somebody else's party and you don't meet their expectations (and we know there are varied expectations, like being a Lala, a SAM, etc.), they have the right to kick you out of their group. If you join their party, and you are holding them back or causing the fight to go on longer than necessary, then they have a right to kick you. That's not toxicity. You just don't meet their expectations.