The time has come to get rid of enrage timers

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

A soft enrage is jsut giving more forgiveness for lackluster mechanics or dps in a group, and I dont mean the DPS role. I mean broadly. A hard enrage is pretty much the "You didnt win in the time allotted, time to die and reset." Soft enrages are like "Well you guys look like your trying so here's a bit of extra time that if your healers are geared enough can live through (and even LB through if need be.)" Pretty much a soft enrage just means youre allowed to die and make more mistakes and still clear. Im not even a great raider and I dont want soft enrages to be the thing. I want hard enrages. I want the boss to say "Tough luck, now die." and one shot everyone.

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With hard enrage, there is no chance of making a coming back. If you get behind in dps for whatever reason, you lose. There is no chance to comeback.

In sports, they don't end the game because team A didn't score X amount of points in the first quarter. They can still make that up later and win. The mechanics of FFXIV don't allow you make a comeback. It's be perfect or wipe. Reality is, players are not perfect. Just like Tom Brady does not complete 100% of his passes.

Some of the funnest fights I've had in this game is where things go south and we're able to pull it back together and win. With enrage timers, fights can be done 1 way and 1 way only. This makes them extremely static and cause them to get boring fast.

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Originally Posted by Brill_

With hard enrage, there is no chance of making a coming back. If you get behind in dps for whatever reason, you lose. There is no chance to comeback.

In sports, they don't end the game because team A didn't score X amount of points in the first quarter. They can still make that up later and win. The mechanics of FFXIV don't allow you make a comeback. It's be perfect or wipe. Reality is, players are not perfect. Just like Tom Brady does not complete 100% of his passes.

Some of the funnest fights I've had in this game is where things go south and we're able to pull it back together and win. With enrage timers, fights can be done 1 way and 1 way only. This makes them extremely static and cause them to get boring fast.

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As I said, though, most times people dont hit enrage. It's usually an issue of wiping to mechanics or clearing, not getting to 2 or 1%. If you fall behind in damage, thats an issue of dyign to mechanics typically. Meaning people not paying attention to mechanics died, overall DPS drops, and you cant recover. If you make it to the end of the fight, boss enrages and wipes you. The lesson isnt supposed to be "Can we make a comeback from dying a few times", the lesson is "We need to do the mechanics better." And mind you, being decently geared will mean you can suffer a death here or there and still manage. None of the fights are so stringent you have to not die at all to clear. It's usually when your group suffers 4, 5, 6 plus deaths that you fall so far behind on dps that the enrage becomes inevitable.

To me, soft enrages will ultimately promote people saying "Derp I died, its ok." and allow for people being loose on learning a fight rather than fixing things and improving. Anyone can learn the fight mechanics and learn not to die. That's part of the deal with the savage tier. If we turn it into a slightly harder version of the regular version, it loses meaning IMO. Enrage timers keep people from saying it's ok to die in a fight constantly.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

As a counterpoint, fights can be built to be challenging without involving Enrage timers. Just look to FFXI, the MMO predecessor to this one. There were PLENTY of challenging fights in that game, and only a bare handful had Enrages (and those few cases, to prevent folks from "zombieing" open-world mobs until folks literally started having real-life health issues).

I've never been fond of Enrage as a component to difficulty. It's a relatively recent addition to video games in general, and games were fun before this started to happen. If you can take what the boss throws at you, that should be enough.

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EverQuest as well. We took 72 people and it would take us weeks or months sometimes to clear the plane/tower/etc. No enrage timers. Just challenging mechanics, randomized boss attacks, adds, and high damage making healing essential.

I'm not fond of Enrage, either. It just encourages zerg rushing and we used to make fun of people who had to cheese a fight by zerg rushing because they couldn't handle the mechanics of the fight. When I see people who want to skip mechanics with dps, I think of those cheese tactics.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

EverQuest as well. We took 72 people and it would take us weeks or months sometimes to clear the plane/tower/etc. No enrage timers. Just challenging mechanics, randomized boss attacks, adds, and high damage making healing essential.

I'm not fond of Enrage, either. It just encourages zerg rushing and we used to make fun of people who had to cheese a fight by zerg rushing because they couldn't handle the mechanics of the fight. When I see people who want to skip mechanics with dps, I think of those cheese tactics.

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Cue Alexander Creator and A11S.

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Originally Posted by Brill_

Some of the funnest fights I've had in this game is where things go south and we're able to pull it back together and win. With enrage timers, fights can be done 1 way and 1 way only. This makes them extremely static and cause them to get boring fast.

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I don't think that's 100% true, there is still room for error and you can recover from major mess ups, but the margin of error is just a lot smaller. Like if we had huge DPS in phase 1, and someone accidentally caused 4 dps to die...we can still recover if the healers had been managing their mana well and could get those res's off in time before the next mechanic or whatever. It just really depends on your teams skill. The higher the combined skill of the team, the larger margin of error you can make and recover from without fear of hitting enrage.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

EverQuest as well. We took 72 people and it would take us weeks or months sometimes to clear the plane/tower/etc. No enrage timers. Just challenging mechanics, randomized boss attacks, adds, and high damage making healing essential.

I'm not fond of Enrage, either. It just encourages zerg rushing and we used to make fun of people who had to cheese a fight by zerg rushing because they couldn't handle the mechanics of the fight. When I see people who want to skip mechanics with dps, I think of those cheese tactics.

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this is a fundamental shift in challenging content, and I like where we are now. I find dying in a tough encounters to RNG MUCH more punishing and devastating than dying to poorly executing mechanics or not optimizing DPS. Dying to RNG doesn't encourage me to go back and learn from my mistakes or figure out where I went wrong...it encourages me to figure out how I can cheese this RNG bull****. Which leads me right to your 2nd point of zerging mechanics.

I want to avoid RNG. The structure of FFxiv's heavily scripted content removes MOST RNG and increases the punishment for failing with enrage and weird mechanics. I much prefer this way.

Even if you got rid of the boss enrage timers, y'all would still be stuck with the hidden mandatory enrage that all encounters have that can't be removed: the instance timer. Nothing feels worse than beating a boss down to sub-10% HP and getting a Duty Failed slapped across the screen when the timer runs out. Honestly, the enrage timers are fine as it is. They're very forgiving in most encounters like extreme primals, almost non-existant in casual content like daily experts and story trials, and understandably strict in high-end content like Savage and Ultimate.

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Originally Posted by SargentToughie

I'm glad for you.

It doesn't make the idea any less horrible. You'd basically be gutting the only interesting parts of the roles, or the only parts that actually give the roles some kind of major agency, or skill ceiling. I could sit here and write paragraphs upon paragraphs as to why I feel this way, as I've done in the past. But it's not going to change anything. I'm not changing your mind. If you care about my opinions just go check my post history. You won't, nor would I expect you to, but the posts are there. I'm not going to re-tread old ground.

This whole argument is pointless. So you keep doing you, boo.

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Here's the thing, while I can certainly agree that looking back my idea wasn't the greatest, it doesn't change the fact that I want to see enmity and healing matter more. Right now in dungeons, unless your tank is braindad, you can usually heal a dungeon with just oGCD heals and Regen (if WHM), and thus spend 99% of your time DPSing. At that point you're just a green DPS (a DPS with a few healing spells). And it works in a similar vein for tanks, on bosses I spend upwards of 80% of the fight in Deliverance/Sword Oath, thus I'm just a blue DPS (a DPS with a few defensive abilities). That's what I want to see change. I want to see the primary roles of the healers and tanks to matter more than they currently do. Right now they feel like an afterthought compared to DPS DPS DPS. Sure still allow some DPS to occur. But that should be just that, the skill ceiling. Right now it's literally anything except the very skill floor of the role. And again, that's what I want to see change. I want tank stances and healing to matter more.

In fact, I still think changing Cleric stance to just a straight DPS buff without penalty was a bad idea, and that while the button needed some fine tuning (perhaps changes to a stance swap so you'd go between healer stance and cleric stance with a 5 second cooldown to change either way, instead of just a 5 second cooldown when you went to cleric stance, but non for going to healer stance, hence the double click blunder meaning you stay in cleric stance), it was a great idea. It made it more strategic, it made for more emerging gameplay. That was what my (admittedly horrible) idea was meant to do, put a greater emphasis on tank stance. Right now for most people it's just a simple afterthought.

If we remove enrage ppl will just bring tanks and heals on clear partys. Tanks can weasle though some botched mechanics.

If you take the only reason of a dps ... whats left. Clear partys dont care about speed only about clearing.

And weekly savage pugging? Id take a clear thats 3 min longer with a better win chance over wiping.

Let's be real here they aren't going to remove enrage timers without adding something else equally annoying. While true in older games like XI they didn't have these for every encounter (they later added them to things because people were holding them indefinitely (especially RMT) while people sat there and watched unable to do anything due to the claim system, not because people couldn't kill them). They still had a competency check which was your healers/support running out of MP/resources.

It isn't really that great a comparison since every slot in an XIV party is worth something in that the person can't be replaced while you are fighting the boss which means everyone has to pull their weight and a weak link can cause a fail.

In XI most of the stuff was open world, or the instance had such a high player cap that you could bring as many people as you wanted. Even though the claiming group can only be 18 players for open world stuff, if someone died you could just swap them out for someone else. The death penalty in XI was also really harsh (1/4 max HP, and slow) as you ended up mostly useless until your weakened wore off, and if you died again you were literally useless after they added double weak. In XIV, you just get a damage penalty that can be made up through other means like overgearing.

Weakness and vuln stacks are basically XIV's version of the soft enrage. As dying increases the chances of you hitting the hard enrage due to the damage loss.

Without the hard enrage, gear starts to matter even less and since the game revolves around collecting gear it just means they'll just find some other way to ruin your day to extend content shelf life like no resurrections or really bad drop rates like XI where sometimes you spent hours killing a boss only for it to drop a wind crystal.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

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Off-topic, but there is an inherent issue with forcing more enmity and healing management that conflicts with the current battle system. Having the healer constantly be healing and the tank constantly hold enmity would either require every enemy be scaled upwards in hp and damage to the point where throwing dps spells or going out of tank stance is dangerous (aggro ping-pong), or alternatively, they could also reduce the potency of healing and mitigation across the board. At that point, dungeons would take forver because pulling more than one pack of mobs would be too much to heal and mitigate through. They would have to essentially tweak every single duty all the way from 2.0 up till now in order to make it work which is a considerable amount of work.

It's mostly because of the tools and utility that healers and tanks have that give them breathing room to do dps. Nothing short of overhauling the entire battle system (and by extension, every single duty) would allow for this change. It just be like that sometimes. Personally, I like how the battle system currently works.

Edit: Just as an example, Neo Exdeath from Deltascape V4 Savage has an extreme amount of downtime for both mitigation and healing. It also has aggro resets everywhere. Damage comes out in short bursts with very little happening in between. That entire fight would have to be scrapped if they wanted to add more healing and mitigation.

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Originally Posted by Lilseph

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Just a quick point about your post that irks me.

No, they wouldn't.

They didn't go back and re-tune 2.0-3.5 content after introducing a shit load more natural dps in the form of Direct Hit, and they won't go back and re-tune old content in future if they make sweeping gameplay changes.

Direct Hit in itself completely trivializes the majority of content at level 60 and below and it's ridiculous, previously tight DPS checks at minimum ilvl (Coil, Alexander Savage) are now infinitely easier than they were in their prime. If they didn't rebalance content then, I'm 100% certain they wouldn't in future. Only current content matters to them, maybe with the exception of Ultimate, but we won't know how they handle that one till Shadowbringers.

Sounds to me like OP is afraid of his class being nerfed and no longer being required in all endgame raid tiers.

Lol Welcome to the life of having 4 tanks.. Youll be swapped in and out as the devs want

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

I'm not fond of Enrage, either. It just encourages zerg rushing and we used to make fun of people who had to cheese a fight by zerg rushing because they couldn't handle the mechanics of the fight. When I see people who want to skip mechanics with dps, I think of those cheese tactics.

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I am not sure you understand what zerg rush means, because a highly sacrificial gamble on an early fight and merely having enough DPS to end fights early (preferably with no deaths) are two entirely different concepts. Then again, it wouldn't be the first time unqualified people on these forums pretend they know what they're arguing about, and talk out their arse about things they actually don't have much experience with.

Ironically, the Ultimate fights discourage attempting to skip mechanics via high DPS, and still have an enrage timer. You know, the hardest raids in the entire game. UwU in particular is split between four different bosses over 17-18 minutes, and the vast majority of groups will actually hold off on progressing to the next boss until one or two attacks before the boss enrage. The reason for that is because killing a boss too early usually spirals into a wipe later in the fight due to key cooldowns not being available during a major mechanic on the following boss.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

Ironically, the Ultimate fights discourage attempting to skip mechanics via high DPS, and still have an enrage timer. You know, the hardest raids in the entire game. UwU in particular is split between four different bosses over 17-18 minutes, and the vast majority of groups will actually hold off on progressing to the next boss until one or two attacks before the boss enrage. The reason for that is because killing a boss too early usually spirals into a wipe later in the fight due to key cooldowns not being available during a major mechanic on the following boss.

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*nervously sweats in My-Group's-Gotten-Used-To-Skipping-Anyway*

You've absolutely got a point; I'd say UWU more punishes inconsistent DPS. The group can plan around cooldown uptime if you're consistently skipping, but if you 3/10 skip wicked wheel, 3/10 barely skip the stack, and 4/10 barely make enrage, it's better to just wait and barely make enrage every time.

/unsolicitedunneededadvice

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

In fact, I still think changing Cleric stance to just a straight DPS buff without penalty was a bad idea, and that while the button needed some fine tuning (perhaps changes to a stance swap so you'd go between healer stance and cleric stance with a 5 second cooldown to change either way, instead of just a 5 second cooldown when you went to cleric stance, but non for going to healer stance, hence the double click blunder meaning you stay in cleric stance), it was a great idea. It made it more strategic, it made for more emerging gameplay. That was what my (admittedly horrible) idea was meant to do, put a greater emphasis on tank stance. Right now for most people it's just a simple afterthought.

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I'm still laughing my ass off at how before Stormblood, a bunch of people on these forums were celebrating the death of Cleric Stance, because they thought it'd lead to the death of the DPS healer. For reasons that didn't make any sense.

Like freaking no, you dolts. Turns out the exact opposite happened, like what most people who actually knew anything about gameplay design could tell.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

*nervously sweats in My-Group's-Gotten-Used-To-Skipping-Anyway*

You've absolutely got a point; I'd say UWU more punishes inconsistent DPS. The group can plan around cooldown uptime if you're consistently skipping, but if you 3/10 skip wicked wheel, 3/10 barely skip the stack, and 4/10 barely make enrage, it's better to just wait and barely make enrage every time.

/unsolicitedunneededadvice

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I wouldnt say it's inconsistent dps, but rather the focus becomes Skill management and doing mechanics correctly. Since anyone going into UWU is gonna be pretty much BiS, achieving DPS goals should be pretty feasible (so long as youre doing proper class rotations). Where groups seem to run into issues then is clearing mechanics correctly. This makes more sense if groups are slowing down fights and not trying to phase skip, because then it's an issue of ensuring mechanics are played properly. In older content (like ZurvanEX), groups got super geared and demanded that you skip soar. If you can just skip doing boss stuff cause your super geared and dont have to care, it does make the content easier.

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

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If they had to adjust the game so that healers and tanks require constant healing and mitigation respectively, it would be detrimental for newcomers to play the base game and two entire expansion's worth of content only to get hit with a complete playstyle overhaul in newer expansions. Having players learn one playstyle then throw it out of the window later is bad design. That's my reasoning for it.

Direct Hit is a different case per say. It doesn't fundamentally change the way dps combos work, nor does it change the way you press your cooldowns. While it makes older content much faster and easier to clear it doesn't directly impact the playstyle of the DPS jobs.

I need my enrage timer to die for cutseen reason!

WAR has been overpowered for so long.
Much longer than any time it wasn't top tier tank.

I'm generally not worried about it moving forward.

They should add Enrage to normal raids tbh

I agree more things need to encourage people to play well.
We already babysit enough. Most players don't even know they're underperforming and have no indication to improve themselves.

I agree.

It's not about "making the bads git gud" either, but more about being open with their players. They put so much into convincing players they're doing awesome from 1-70, go out of their way to hide all indications of player performance, and then bam, EX and Savage are suddenly throwing mechanics around like confetti, there's a strict time limit and their incorrect rotation isn't even half good enough. It's misleading.

I've been part of a 24 minute Construct 7 kill. After dying to the stack marker for the second time at roughly the 10 minute mark, I said balls to this and went afk to go pee and grab a drink. I come back 5 minutes later and it was still alive, so I sit there browsing on my phone for the remainder of the fight. After it dies I'm told that despite being out of the action for 10+ minutes, I was still 11th on the damage rankings, despite being the only one who released.

Normal raids and duties absolutely need hard enrages, and the general playerbase needs to see that they aren't all that they're cracked up to be. I don't care if your feelings might get hurt, but some people perform embarrassingly bad. I know some people are going to play the disability card but before you do, not every bad player has a disability, so don't even bother.

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

I know some people are going to play the disability card but before you do, not every bad player has a disability, so don't even bother.

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Can also point to the whole Sekiro debacle too.

Where "Games Journalists" were talking about how it being a hard game with no easy mode was disrespectful to gamers and tried to use "People with disabilities" as the excuse (Rather than admit that they just suck at video games...)

To which the response was a bunch of people with disabilities making videos of them kicking butt in the game. We're talking people with significant motor control disabilities kicking butt and taking names in a Souls-like game showing that "Disability" excuses aren't going to fly and that people just need to git gud.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Can also point to the whole Sekiro debacle too.

Where "Games Journalists" were talking about how it being a hard game with no easy mode was disrespectful to gamers and tried to use "People with disabilities" as the excuse (Rather than admit that they just suck at video games...)

To which the response was a bunch of people with disabilities making videos of them kicking butt in the game. We're talking people with significant motor control disabilities kicking butt and taking names in a Souls-like game showing that "Disability" excuses aren't going to fly and that people just need to git gud.

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Exactly that! Content should be made based on the target audience. In Sekiro's and savage mode case, it's those that want a challenge. Without enrage timers, It'd be a walk in the park for DPS classes.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Can also point to the whole Sekiro debacle too.

Where "Games Journalists" were talking about how it being a hard game with no easy mode was disrespectful to gamers and tried to use "People with disabilities" as the excuse (Rather than admit that they just suck at video games...)

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This example is so annoying to me because there is literally a video online of a disabled dude flawlessly executing the heavensward machinist opener WITH HIS FEET. ON A CONTROLLER.

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

I've been part of a 24 minute Construct 7 kill. After dying to the stack marker for the second time at roughly the 10 minute mark, I said balls to this and went afk to go pee and grab a drink. I come back 5 minutes later and it was still alive, so I sit there browsing on my phone for the remainder of the fight. After it dies I'm told that despite being out of the action for 10+ minutes, I was still 11th on the damage rankings, despite being the only one who released.

Normal raids and duties absolutely need hard enrages, and the general playerbase needs to see that they aren't all that they're cracked up to be. I don't care if your feelings might get hurt, but some people perform embarrassingly bad. I know some people are going to play the disability card but before you do, not every bad player has a disability, so don't even bother.

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Come on its totaly ok if only one person is above 3k dps while all others are not even hitting 2k dps. We don't need enrages, we can just right click on the boss and go afk like all the others do too. :)
Don't worry people are playing the disability card here while several disabled players play games like LoL on diamond elo or higher.

I want them to add enrage to everything, even the little lambs outside Limsa, if you fail to press 1 quick enough lamb will go Ultra instinct and 999999 dmg Mighty Lamb Chop you.

Do this for all mobs SE, oh dungeons too, so tanks cant pull a whole hallway anymore unless the dps git gut. This will bring in so many new players.

Sure will.

It will.

Not lying.

Yep

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Originally Posted by Drayce1

I want them to add enrage to everything, even the little lambs outside Limsa, if you fail to press 1 quick enough lamb will go Ultra instinct and 999999 dmg Mighty Lamb Chop you.

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I suddenly have an idea for a new Raid FATE...

:p

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Originally Posted by Kalise

I suddenly have an idea for a new Raid FATE...

:p

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Chickens from zelda as raid bosses

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Originally Posted by 24spencer

This example is so annoying to me because there is literally a video online of a disabled dude flawlessly executing the heavensward machinist opener WITH HIS FEET. ON A CONTROLLER.

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For reference.
https://youtu.be/ogCRNvghbiw

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Can also point to the whole Sekiro debacle too.

Where "Games Journalists" were talking about how it being a hard game with no easy mode was disrespectful to gamers and tried to use "People with disabilities" as the excuse (Rather than admit that they just suck at video games...)

To which the response was a bunch of people with disabilities making videos of them kicking butt in the game. We're talking people with significant motor control disabilities kicking butt and taking names in a Souls-like game showing that "Disability" excuses aren't going to fly and that people just need to git gud.

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Reminds me of the FFXIV player without hands. He had a video of him doing a HW era MCH opener with his feet.
There's usually no excuse but yourself!

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Originally Posted by Canadane

Reminds me of the FFXIV player without hands. He had a video of him doing a HW era MCH opener with his feet.
There's usually no excuse but yourself!

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Check the post above you :p

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Originally Posted by Alucard135

Check the post above you :p

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One day I'll learn to read ahead.

Yes, of course...let's remove enrages because the rest of us that actually care about our performance don't carry enough of the playerbase on our backs already as it is. :rolleyes:

Because I really, really, REALLY want to solo the Mist Dragon on WHM in The Burn when the rest of my party was dead on a daily basis.

Actually the solution is to add more enrage mechanics.

Rather than have the enrages at the end of the fight, place them as a series of checkpoints throughout a fight. That way if damage is too low in, say, phase 1, you fail early and it's not a 10 minute slog only to find you're short at the very end. Skip soar or disband is actually the best way to avoid the frustration of a 5% wipe.

Make these hard enrages so people don't just tank LB3 like they did with Byakko.

Alternatively, bring back Faust/ADS. Some parties should fail out before they even see the boss.

The name of the game, is squeezing out as much DPS while maintaining the job given to you. From DPS, to healers, to tanks.

DPS, often, have to deal with more mechanics, complicated rotations (relative to tanks and healers) and positionals/casting foresight. If they can manage all that, they have to then know what does the most DPS at what times, making sure things don't fall off etc. This is also coupled with the fact many DPS except BLM and SAM, in some ways, make other DPS do more damage! A simple role, but important and the basis for the other jobs it feels.

Healer has the most dynamic job of keeping everyone alive, often having their health bars be tied to failure to perform mechanics. Despite that, they're still encouraged to keep a balancing act of making sure people don't die, and murdering the boss. This is why AST have cards- with every one, even bole, having a use case for letting someone else do more damage.

Tanks, while often not having as many numerical mechanics thrown at them, have a very important but incredibly easy to do job of making sure the boss is slapping their buttcheeks, and not their buddies buttcheeks. This means that if you can survive attacks in a manner that gives more dps than losing it, such as a vuln stack making a healer heal more, or getting pacified and such, then you are encouraged to do so. Tanking in 14 is DPSing while balancing your job. This was very clear when all the tanks were simplified in SB, with enmity becoming not an issue at all not helping one bit. Since the tanks don't have to worry about emnity or a rotation they can focus on, they felt like boring DPS at times. This isn't the DPS focus of the game's fault, it's the job design of the tanks.

This isn't a 'meta'. it's how the game is designed. Pacman doesn't have a powerpellet meta, it has powerpellets as a core mechanic the game is designed around.


I think the developers are acknowledging this, and will make the method in which you DPS possibly harder for tanks and healers, and focusing on more unique methods to do DPS for DPS roles.
Removing DPS from tanks and healers is the most short sighted and simply ignorant thing I have heard in a while. By this logic, tanks should have two buttons, one being a defensive buff, and the other being an emnity generator. Neither do damage. Now we only need 1 tank as well! Get rid of 2 of the rest. Healers only need 3 skills now. A res, a heal, an cleanse. It keeps going. This would have to be done if they actually were to remove enrage timers, because if they didn't, DPS as a role wouldn't have a purpose to exist in this dystopian future since everything can be cleared with like 2 healers and a tank.

This game is made with hurting the enemy fast being the end goal, the fun comes from balancing your jobs that are often at odds with that, and surviving the bosses mechanics at the same time.
If DPSing the badguys fast isn't what you want, you don't want Final Fantasy 14.