AOE Toggle Needs to GO

If you have UI lag, that might be on your end. I seriously have no UI lag in this game, and I just upgraded my GPU to a Geforce GT 440, since then literally no UI lag at all. Only lag I've gotten is inside of towns actually and it has been more like not receiving packets for a second. I really don't want something drastic to be changed about a battle system when there are things people can do to fix lag on their end. Especially since they said they're going to make users low end computers be able to run this game better, why couldn't wait to bitch? You wait till then, see if "they" fixed it, and then you see if you can fix it, if not then bitch. But seriously wait.

As usual.. Let's wait and see...

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Originally Posted by Dreadnought

i smell an official poll coming when it comes time to implement this....

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Maybe... But maybe they will just do it.

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Originally Posted by zaviermhigo

If you have UI lag, that might be on your end. I seriously have no UI lag in this game, and I just upgraded my GPU to a Geforce GT 440, since then literally no UI lag at all. Only lag I've gotten is inside of towns actually and it has been more like not receiving packets for a second. I really don't want something drastic to be changed about a battle system when there are things people can do to fix lag on their end. Especially since they said they're going to make users low end computers be able to run this game better, why couldn't wait to bitch? You wait till then, see if "they" fixed it, and then you see if you can fix it, if not then bitch. But seriously wait.

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well everyone feels lag in a different way. Slow UI might be more accurate to describe it. THE UI is slow and not very responsive in some parts, no matter what hardware you have. Some don't call it lag, some do, and some just don't care as much as others, but its definitely there. I have it on almost all menus, trading, and retainer interactions especially, and sometimes while fighting as well.

Its a known issue and im playing on an I-7 30% overclocked 580 and ssd... so its hardly a hardware issue.

Just bring back fire fira firaga etc. Seriously, it's the best system.

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Originally Posted by zaviermhigo

If you have UI lag, that might be on your end. I seriously have no UI lag in this game, and I just upgraded my GPU to a Geforce GT 440, since then literally no UI lag at all. Only lag I've gotten is inside of towns actually and it has been more like not receiving packets for a second. I really don't want something drastic to be changed about a battle system when there are things people can do to fix lag on their end. Especially since they said they're going to make users low end computers be able to run this game better, why couldn't wait to bitch? You wait till then, see if "they" fixed it, and then you see if you can fix it, if not then bitch. But seriously wait.

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Upgrading is not an option, I spent my bugget and more to be able to play this game in the first place : (
The data compression SE did back feb/march sorted out all my general lag, the only lag issue i suffer with now is Broken Water at leve time. There is no way I am the only person to experiance this! And they are not removing the AOE toggle because of lag esp as i'm the only one in this whole post to have mentioned reducing the steps to cast spells will help in laggy situations!!

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Originally Posted by Embers

Upgrading is not an option, I spent my bugget and more to be able to play this game in the first place : (
The data compression SE did back feb/march sorted out all my general lag, the only lag issue i suffer with now is Broken Water at leve time. There is no way I am the only person to experiance this! And they are not removing the AOE toggle because of lag esp as i'm the only one in this whole post to have mentioned reducing the steps to cast spells will help in laggy situations!!

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you really just have to play around with game settings if youre getting UI lag in a quiet area. The UI lag you get when in broken water with 300 people around is just going to be there however, since many of the windows like equipment window and crafting window are depend on your latency going from window to window.

Oh..... and I still say noes to the removal of AOE toggle of single spells. But, instead of discovering other options they are just going with the general 'Remove this' Consensus....

Next up, Return of Job/Subjob, Removal of classes, return of job-changing moogles, removal of battle regimen and return of skill chain/magic burst, reduction of max tp from 3000 to 300, all ws's take all your tp, 6 tp per hit from 1h weapons and 12tp per hit from 2 handed weapons, EXTREMELY slow weapon speeds, 'Praying' to recover MP.....

well this confirms they are killing the mage has different ranges thing. One of the major points of thaum was aoe cone, and conjurer aoe circle. this also means the skills which were used to alter the ranges will be gone. Seems like whatever playstyle differences con and thaum had will be abandoned, and they will only differ based on job skills.

Doesnt bode well for DoW classes as well, if they want to take the mechanics of playstyle out of class selection. not to say i thought DoM had really entertaining playstyle mechanics, but it looks like they will have even less, or no real playstyle mechanic in the future.

I really would like to see what their plan is for battle now.... its.... starting to look..... less.....

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Originally Posted by Tsuga

Right, which basically means that if you don't want to hit all of the coblyns that are surrounding you, you're going to have to equip Aero I, and Aero II, because Aero II will be AoE, while Aero I isn't. It's the same problem as making Aeroga II ala XI's system. All I want is one version of the spell on my bar. I'm a CON, I get spells of every element, and I don't want my bar gummed up with two spells of the same element in varying strengths just so that I don't aggro every mob in my general vicinity.

If they just made every spell AoE then CON would easily be the most frustrating experience ever, for everyone.

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Intresting how you know so much about the desgin of the AOE toggle. Far as im concerned your speculating about what will happen, and you have 0 evidence to support your statement. This is where this shit starts, and it really needs to end. Stop speculating and thinking you know whats going on behind closed doors.

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Originally Posted by Dragonlord

Intresting how you know so much about the desgin of the AOE toggle. Far as im concerned your speculating about what will happen, and you have 0 evidence to support your statement. This is where this shit starts, and it really needs to end. Stop speculating and thinking you know whats going on behind closed doors.

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If you had read the post that this was in response to, you'd see that I was responding to her hypothetical situation.

We DON'T know what the devs are thinking, but what we do know is that they're changing a system that works perfectly fine, [Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XIV FORUM Guidelines.]

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Originally Posted by Anty

well everyone feels lag in a different way. Slow UI might be more accurate to describe it. THE UI is slow and not very responsive in some parts, no matter what hardware you have. Some don't call it lag, some do, and some just don't care as much as others, but its definitely there. I have it on almost all menus, trading, and retainer interactions especially, and sometimes while fighting as well.

Its a known issue and im playing on an I-7 30% overclocked 580 and ssd... so its hardly a hardware issue.

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^ This.

The UI is slow and unresponsive, no matter what kind of rig you're running. Add to that unnecessary roadblocks and button pushes just to get a simple spell off, and it adds up to a whole lot of frustration.

The UI definitely needs some streamlining, which could have happened without splitting out all the spells (as was suggested, the AoE toggle could have been moved to a static widget and out of the casting process). But SE has other plans. Those who are up in arms about SE removing the toggle because they're speculating that it'll just give us two sets of the same spell may find out they're wrong (so, please, can we stop the angry finger pointing). As has been stated, they are looking at spells on a case-by-case basis. Maybe we shouldn't just be able to AoE everything. Maybe AoE's will come in a handful of special spells. Maybe they're restructuring the CON/THM spellbook. Maybe it'll be granted through Materia. We don't know yet.

But a change needed to happen and I'm hopeful that it'll be for the better.

The developers really need to make a large post detailing what they're doing with mage classes. It's getting ridiculous now. We're playing the game, you'd think they'd just announced FFXIV with how little information they provide about certain gameplay aspects.

I've never had a problem with hitting Z for AoE on and off. Totally agree about the bar space and I can see Fire I being non-AoE while Fire II being AoE along with lots of other spells like that. Cure I will be single target, II will be AoE and III will be a strong single target. I'm sure they will do it this way due to what they did to Lay of the Land I - V and other gathering abilities.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

I prodded for some more details about the system to hopefully give you guys a better understanding at what the current plan is. The current policy of allowing spells to be cast both as an individual-target and AoE will be done away with. During the armoury system improvements spells will be evaluated and determined whether they will be an individual target spell or an AoE spell on a case by case basis.

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Sounds great, thank you for more clarification. That sounds like they had planned to remove the AOE toggle even before this thread came to fruition? It is wonderful to see that a more intuitive system will be coming for casters rather than having to battle with UI mechanics instead of battling monsters!

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Originally Posted by Shika

Hmmm interesting idea... does make me concerned slightly though, for example if they make Sleep single target only and you need to crowd control several mobs- hopefully cool-downs in this case would be adjusted for spells like this.

Glad that we're getting some feedback on this topic though, thanks Bayohne! ^^

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Who said there is not going to be a new spell called Sleepga?

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Originally Posted by Rowyne

^ This.

The UI is slow and unresponsive, no matter what kind of rig you're running. Add to that unnecessary roadblocks and button pushes just to get a simple spell off, and it adds up to a whole lot of frustration.

The UI definitely needs some streamlining, which could have happened without splitting out all the spells (as was suggested, the AoE toggle could have been moved to a static widget and out of the casting process). But SE has other plans. Those who are up in arms about SE removing the toggle because they're speculating that it'll just give us two sets of the same spell may find out they're wrong (so, please, can we stop the angry finger pointing). As has been stated, they are looking at spells on a case-by-case basis. Maybe we shouldn't just be able to AoE everything. Maybe AoE's will come in a handful of special spells. Maybe they're restructuring the CON/THM spellbook. Maybe it'll be granted through Materia. We don't know yet.

But a change needed to happen and I'm hopeful that it'll be for the better.

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I agree with your post 100%, except for that last sentence. This change didn't NEED to happen. The AoE toggle functions just fine, the problem lies on the user end. I play with the bare minimum of specs, and Z toggling has only benefited me. It's pretty clear that the only time people have issues with the toggle is due to common oversights with ANY AoE attack (not paying attention to your surroundings), and MP/Hate management, which have nothing to do with the toggle itself.

If AoE toggle was just a placeholder for some better asset of the revamped battle system, then I hope whatever they've got up their sleeves is 100x better. But right now all I see this as is a major nerf to the way I play my class.

I'd be happy to eat my shoe in this case, because this seems pretty set in stone, and I like playing CON. I just really hope that the change isn't in response to this (and the other anti AoE toggle) thread, because the OP, and other's proposed solutions are all a major step backwards from what we have.

The way I would like to see this is like how XII handled it.
Cure -> Single Target
Cura/CureII -> AoE
Curaga/CureIII -> Single Target
Curaja/CureIV -> AoE

Obviously the single target spells should do more damage/heals than the AoE and having designated spells for each type would allow mages a greater sense of freedom than just AoEing everything in sight

Sorry, but if all my DoM spells are going to be single target, then what is the point of being a DoM compared to a DoW? Better effectiveness? Give me a break. My buff and healing spells better stay aoe otherwise it is pointless for the thm's and con's aoe stances. This is a horrible decision. I extremely hope SE does this properly, or I'm going to be very frustrated.

What makes any DoM player think they deserve every spell they have to be AoE? Dragging up random situations where XXX spell has to be AoE is pointless, these changes are not done in a vacuum like most of you would like to believe.

there no need for the ff12 system with spells the way the AoE works now is like how AoE worked befor ff7. also this may seem an odd thing to say but from what i could read it seems a lot of you thinks it's ok to just not to look at what your doing in battle which is just odd if this were any other mmo the players would just blame you but here we blame SE.

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I prodded for some more details about the system to hopefully give you guys a better understanding at what the current plan is. The current policy of allowing spells to be cast both as an individual-target and AoE will be done away with. During the armoury system improvements spells will be evaluated and determined whether they will be an individual target spell or an AoE spell on a case by case basis.

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well this suck it seems if you yell loud and long enough you can get anything changed.

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Originally Posted by akisato

well this suck it seems if you yell loud and long enough you can get anything changed.

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Children do it with their parents and it seems to work.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

I prodded for some more details about the system to hopefully give you guys a better understanding at what the current plan is. The current policy of allowing spells to be cast both as an individual-target and AoE will be done away with. During the armoury system improvements spells will be evaluated and determined whether they will be an individual target spell or an AoE spell on a case by case basis.

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Disappointing news.

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Originally Posted by akisato

well this suck it seems if you yell loud and long enough you can get anything changed.

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haha I said that in a different thead, but more specifically if enough people complain about something, and our moderators pass the info of the complaints forward, chances are it will get changed or scheduled to be changed. It was done with auto attack, it was done with the armory system, it was done with the market wards, it was done with local leves, it was done with battle regimen, it will continue to be done with everything because forming mass complaints has become the greatest way to get anything changed in this game.

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Children do it with their parents and it seems to work.

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but rarely is it good for the child.

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haha I said that in a different thead, but more specifically if enough people complain about something, and our moderators pass the info of the complaints forward, chances are it will get changed or scheduled to be changed. It was done with auto attack, it was done with the armory system, it was done with the market wards, it was done with local leves, it was done with battle regimen, it will continue to be done with everything because forming mass complaints has become the greatest way to get anything changed in this game.

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but those were not because some are bad at the game. i know this may sound bad but most of the ppl post i read who were for the change said they didnt use macros, forget to turn it off/on, or hated that it would ask the every time they cast a spell. if it get in the way and there is no work around, fine change it, but if there is something you can do but your chosing to just not do it, it should be on you.

Sounds like this was decided long before this post.

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Originally Posted by Drogyn

Sounds like this was decided long before this post.

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I bet you it wasn't. and there was another Anti-AOE toggle thread created in the middle of april, It was just less popular because its posted where it is suspost to be and not where everyone likes to be :). so theres been basicly 2 months of complaints about aoe toggle. Well, maybe not 2 months of complaints, but the complaints started 2 months ago.

Very disappointing to hear they're planning to remove the AoE toggle. The main two reasons:

1) Two versions of spells (one single-target, one AoE) means our already maxed ability bars (and ability points) are going to be further reduced.

Unless we're returning to FFXI style of being able to cast any spell any time, this is a very bad move. Consider all the times we're forced to swap between AoE and single target on the offensive, for example: when attacking a leve group of mobs and the other, unclaimed set wanders into AoE range. So now we'll be forced to set two version of every spell (effectively reducing what we can currently use by half), just so we don't kill our SP gains, or more accurately, so we can better perform our job? The same can be said for combating mob AoE attacks with cures. The UI is already clunky enough with 3 bars, and doubling that to 6 is only going to make things worse.

2)There's nothing wrong with the system as it stands today.

It's a quick keystroke to toggle AoE on or off (whether you use KB or controller.) I do agree that a memory function to maintain the last setting per spell would be nice, but it's hardly difficult to continue using the toggle as it exists. And if you are finding it that hard to use, I'm sorry, but that's your own issue you need to work out. Don't lay your inability to play on everyone else.

Finally, if they're only making changes to the current list of spells, which is possible to be inferred from Bayhone's wording, then it's already an utter failure. The combat mechanics aren't able to filter out unclaimed monsters, and it won't allow us to claim more than one group at a time. Unless they keep all the mobs spread out at all times, effectively removing any sense of life left in them since the last mob behavior change and finally creating a sterile world, then we'll be SoL. Mages will either be forced to use single target attacks, or cast spells in restrictive windows when a target is alone.

Yes yes, let's wait and see how they implement it before calling foul. Sure, because everything else they've done has been soo spectacular that the fanbase is teeming with confidence, right? S-E lost the benefit of the doubt a long time ago, and until they make some major improvements for the better, I'm going to assume it's another crap-tastic plan.

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Originally Posted by Ayerc

Very disappointing to hear they're planning to remove the AoE toggle. The main two reasons:

1) Two versions of spells (one single-target, one AoE) means our already maxed ability bars (and ability points) are going to be further reduced.

Unless we're returning to FFXI style of being able to cast any spell any time, this is a very bad move. Consider all the times we're forced to swap between AoE and single target on the offensive, for example: when attacking a leve group of mobs and the other, unclaimed set wanders into AoE range. So now we'll be forced to set two version of every spell (effectively reducing what we can currently use by half), just so we don't kill our SP gains, or more accurately, so we can better perform our job? The same can be said for combating mob AoE attacks with cures. The UI is already clunky enough with 3 bars, and doubling that to 6 is only going to make things worse.

2)There's nothing wrong with the system as it stands today.

It's a quick keystroke to toggle AoE on or off (whether you use KB or controller.) I do agree that a memory function to maintain the last setting per spell would be nice, but it's hardly difficult to continue using the toggle as it exists. And if you are finding it that hard to use, I'm sorry, but that's your own issue you need to work out. Don't lay your inability to play on everyone else.

Finally, if they're only making changes to the current list of spells, which is possible to be inferred from Bayhone's wording, then it's already an utter failure. The combat mechanics aren't able to filter out unclaimed monsters, and it won't allow us to claim more than one group at a time. Unless they keep all the mobs spread out at all times, effectively removing any sense of life left in them since the last mob behavior change and finally creating a sterile world, then we'll be SoL. Mages will either be forced to use single target attacks, or cast spells in restrictive windows when a target is alone.

Yes yes, let's wait and see how they implement it before calling foul. Sure, because everything else they've done has been soo spectacular that the fanbase is teeming with confidence, right? S-E lost the benefit of the doubt a long time ago, and until they make some major improvements for the better, I'm going to assume it's another crap-tastic plan.

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Oh do not worry sir. They will eventually or simultaneously dissolve the 'Action Point' System as well. And probably extend the amount of action bars you have, probably up to 4 or 6.. We will be able to set EVERY one of our classes skills.

Bayohne, do you suppose you could find out if all the AoE-only spells will be class (or at least DoM) specific?

Currently the one of the only benefits of being a mage class is that you CAN AoE, while all the DoW using magic has to do it all single-target. For example, if cure (or any buff, really) is made AoE only, will gladiators (etc) still be able to cast it? I could see this extremely diminishing the one role a mage currently has cornered.

Oh good, I always wanted way more skills set and action bars to flip through so it was even more impossible and time consuming to find what i want to use.

Oh, and I totally forgot about the current targeting system. Moving to single target cures will make getting the cursor on the right party member a necessity (which isn't a bad thing), so they better fix their f-ed up targetting system if they expect it to be viable.

I actually just said that out of my view of SE's current predictability :) Its not confirmed that they are doing away with the AC system or adding more action bars. BUT, since they are taking the path towards XI familiarity, it is likely.

Ya, I stated that with sarcasm in mind. I wish they'd just finally come out and say they're taking it to XI-2 territory, then we'd at least know what kind of game we'll have. Or stop feeding us little tidbits without the big picture, so we don't jump to speculation, which is the only thing we can do with the information they do drop.

I used to be a big proponent of having faith in their direction, but the more I'm seeing, the less I'm liking. Bayohne's post was just the proverbial straw.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

I prodded for some more details about the system to hopefully give you guys a better understanding at what the current plan is. The current policy of allowing spells to be cast both as an individual-target and AoE will be done away with. During the armoury system improvements spells will be evaluated and determined whether they will be an individual target spell or an AoE spell on a case by case basis.

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Disappointing. :s

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Hmm...not sure how I feel about this, but ok. Thanks for the clarification.

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Feels good man.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

I prodded for some more details about the system to hopefully give you guys a better understanding at what the current plan is. The current policy of allowing spells to be cast both as an individual-target and AoE will be done away with. During the armoury system improvements spells will be evaluated and determined whether they will be an individual target spell or an AoE spell on a case by case basis.

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Thanks for the heads up, Bayohne. A question though.

How will this affect our AP? Will we have to equip single target AND AoE spells now, thus costing us significantly more AP as well as cluttering up the action bar?

Man, this thread gets worse everyday. :(

Less and less freedom to play how I want to play. I get such a bad feeling about the future.
Did anyone tell Yoshida the best part of this game is the player controlled customization?

I guess I can remain hopeful as always that it won't be as bad as I fear.

Personally, I like how every spell had an AoE option; but the fact that this is determined by a toggle and not by just having seperate spells resulted in a lot of frustrating accidental-AoEs when it was not intended.

Regardless, the system needs to be changed so that if you DO AOE targets, you get EXP and loot for all of them and not just the target of the spell.

There should still be AoE versions of most spells; they simply shouldn't have implemented AoE as a toggle.

Hey guys I think Bayohne "IS IN IT TO WIN IT"!

lol.. I like how its all "taking it to XI"... It's more like "taking it back to the Final Fantasy roots" (We'll probably get Cure I, Cure II, Cure III, Curaga I, Curaga II) just like in the other FF titles...this was not new and exclusive to XI, and to even consider the fact either shows that you never played the FF series and/or you just want to complain about complaining about fixing the game because of complaining.

They are readjusting the current spells to be AoE or not, and gonna add the new AoE versions (I believe it what Bayohne was trying to slyly point out)