/r/ffxivdiscussion: Has FFXIV had any major retcons or plot holes in the story?

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

Do we even know if they had genes? These are not humans-- they are humanoids. If the game explains their constitution beyond form and soul, I am not aware of that. They were not turned into cockroaches, they were turned into what we would conventionally call humans. Someone mentioned when Alphinaud talks about genocide in game, but notice he's calling out the targeting of a group of humans.

Taking away magic or even the way lifespans decrease here are fictional concepts, so making it 1:1 with reality is (I suppose) an interesting ethical analysis. Ultimately though when you kill someone in reality, there's no mechanism to reconstitute them or commune with their souls. I'm not saying what happened isn't tragic, I'm just saying it isn't a genocide. There may be a word for it, but due to this being a fictional story about not humans, I am unsure what it would be. Moreover, the game is arguing it was inherent to survival. The Ancients don't even refer to their own massacres as genocide-- and I'm not talking about the initial voluntary participants. They had later plans to sacrifice lesser beings to Zodiark as well. I wouldn't exactly call that genocide either because it lacks any political or ethical context-- Zodiark needs fuel that's inherent to survival (from their perspective). So is sacrificing those lesser beings genocide? I am unsure.

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Have you not completed Pandaemonium? A large part of the storyline involves Athena seeking to alter the Ancients (which is opposed by those who come to learn of the plan) and as Zavos linked in the post you supposedly read, the term genocide was used to describe the event by Erichthonius.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

I don't see any arguments to respond to but this is completely not comparable. We are talking about a human voice actor in that thread and someone was trying to say that minorities do not exist. That's incredibly dangerous when you're talking about real people. That isn't about fictional characters.

And the voice actor is part of a minority group, hence why i said dismissed. They are wrong. Certain discussions are two way on the forum, but that point is just not one of them. It's not negotiable.

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Who is suggesting that a fictional story is in any way comparable in weight to events in the real world? We are discussing the events as they are presented, including the uglier consequences of Venat's actions and drawing comparisons as they fit since the game is in itself unafraid of doing as much...up until the time comes to hold the pretty mother goddess figure to the same standard as every other character seeking to conduct similar atrocities.

Besides, it is not the subject of your post that matters but merely a desire of mine to expose how often the same people crying foul over something are quite often found doing it themselves and that when it is pointed out, the goalposts are then conveniently moved once again.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Have you not completed Pandaemonium? A large part of the storyline involves Athena seeking to alter the Ancients (which is opposed by those who come to learn of the plan) and as Zavos linked in the post you supposedly read, the term genocide was used to describe the event by Erichthonius.

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I did see it and while that's interesting, it's a French localization. I'd be more interested to know what it says in Japanese if we're going to be using non English translations.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Who is suggesting that a fictional story is in any way comparable in weight to events in the real world?
to expose how often the same people crying foul over something are quite often found doing it themselves and that when it is pointed out, the goalposts are then conveniently moved once again.

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I'm not sure why you're under the impression anyone has said you can't call anything in XIV a genocide. I'm saying I don't perceive this particular aspect of the story as eligible for genocide claims, as they involve demigods who are prioritizing their own view of survival against existential threats. Even if you take the Athena situation as one, it still doesn't exactly match up with my problems regarding the Sundering/the sacrifices.

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Originally Posted by Lady_Silvermoon

Arguing their morals don't apply to us because their world is fictional seems like a huge dismissal of the point of fiction. I mean aren't we taking these situations out of our real world to examine them in a way that does not impact us personally?

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Except in this case it's an origin story comparable to religious texts or mythology if you truly, actually want to bring it 1:1 into reality with context. Even in reality, those progenitor stories are full of terrible events including genocide, but I don't have any real feelings about the ethics of "gods". I guess you could if you compare the actions of x god to say, a world leader, or something. I interpreted EW in this way and I think it's 100% meant to be so based on Yoshi P's own statements. "Wow she was really an Ancient, huh?" or something to that effect when discussing Venat. I'm not sure we are supposed to be holding these characters to human standards or law, even if they are described as having their own ethics and justice systems or whatever in the game. It's more about the desperate way these two sides approach survival in this fictional story about Zodiark and Meteion.

I will also say if you subscribe to the idea the past characters have agency to change the future (which I do not), so you can pin agency to Venat for targeting, even in that case my assumption would just be that whatever she tried, failed.

The exact circumstances do not matter, it is the consequences that do. If the consequences of a particular action - magical or otherwise - result in the elimination of an entire species, society and culture then it is an act of genocide. This is especially true if the act is no accident but rather a deliberate and calculating move.

There are many different factors involved. For example, if someone were to alter the genes of a specific ethnicity in order to prevent such individuals from breeding then that would not involve direct murder but it would still result in the ethnicity in question dying out nonetheless.

Incidentally, that is very much a plot point in a certain manga and the protagonists in that setting do not consider it to be an acceptable outcome for their loved ones despite it being framed as a more merciful alternative to a direct, violent extermination.

It's very easy to frame even horrific actions in a nice little bow and downplay the consequences or severity of such but it isn't something that fools everybody, I'm afraid. This is especially true of the Sundering and comparing it to religious texts strikes me as strange because we also know that neither Venat or her followers are actually real deities. Nor do religious texts shy away from describing the complete and utter destruction that afflicted certain societies depicted within them.

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Originally Posted by Lady_Silvermoon

FF14 used to be the game I played to relax. Then it suddenly decided my character's existence would be built on a billion human sacrifices and I'd just need to be okay with that. And I simply don't know how to be. I wish there was some explanation that meant I was misunderstanding the narrative and nothing I believe happened actually happened, but no, that does not seem to be the case. The case seems to be I just need to be cool with my existence being built on mass genocide.

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Is alright if you cant shrug it off. There are things I cant ignore just none at the moment have been put into the game. Atrocities against childern for one I cant stand or ignore such a thing. The animes promised neverland and into the abyss I wont touch cause they display and mention horrid acts against childern.

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Originally Posted by Lady_Silvermoon

FF14 used to be the game I played to relax. Then it suddenly decided my character's existence would be built on a billion human sacrifices and I'd just need to be okay with that. And I simply don't know how to be. I wish there was some explanation that meant I was misunderstanding the narrative and nothing I believe happened actually happened, but no, that does not seem to be the case. The case seems to be I just need to be cool with my existence being built on mass genocide.

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The solution is that obviously the writers didn't intend for there to be a genocide. Yes, Venat consciously decided that it was the best course of action without alternative, but that is because the writers wanted you to travel back in time, meet her, don't create an alternate timeline like G'raha, retain a conscious bond with Venat and have everything happen exactly the way it did. They wrote backwards from the conclusion. They put this story together in a minute and didn't think about the implications. That is the explanation. For god's sake there is a literal mind-wipe device machina'd into the plot just to somehow make the timeloop possible. This is clearly a rushed and carelessly put together mess of a storyline. Don't take it any more seriously than the writers did.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

There are many different factors involved. For example, if someone were to alter the genes of a specific ethnicity in order to prevent such individuals from breeding then that would not involve direct murder but it would still result in the ethnicity in question dying out nonetheless.

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Venat's alteration was star-wide and predicated on survival. Was it horrible? Sure. Is it genocide? Not really. Especially given that it's possible to restore her world and people, which is something that does not apply to humans or Earth. If we put all the culpability on Venat entirely, even then, there's a difference between someone who is Sundering knowing it isn't a true end vs someone who is engineering birth rate declining, guaranteeing an end. Venat understands that souls still exist within the star post death and understands the nature of forms when it comes to sundering. She even left open the possibility for rejoinings to occur. So is it like your gene example? Not really.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

despite it being framed as a more merciful alternative to a direct, violent extermination.

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It's not framed as merciful. You say it goes in a circle but that's because we end up with this extreme language that is misleading. It's portrayed as extreme, perhaps even arrogant, the total opposite of "merciful".

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Originally Posted by Theodric

It's very easy to frame even horrific actions in a nice little bow and downplay the consequences or severity of such but it isn't something that fools everybody, I'm afraid. This is especially true of the Sundering and comparing it to religious texts strikes me as strange because we also know that neither Venat or her followers are actually real deities. Nor do religious texts shy away from describing the complete and utter destruction that afflicted certain societies depicted within them.

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They literally have creation magic and originated mankind (or one of them did, anyway) -- that's pretty deity like to me. You say you follow lots of relevant media, but it's quite common in Japanese media to find pondering about the origin of existence or humanity as part of the overall narrative. And yes, there are stories about utter destruction that people find despicable and that's a huge component of the story-- XIV is not of them (with this specific plotline, that is).

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Originally Posted by Eisi

The solution is that obviously the writers didn't intend for there to be a genocide. Yes, Venat consciously decided that it was the best course of action without alternative, but that is because the writers wanted you to travel back in time, meet her, don't create an alternate timeline like G'raha, retain a conscious bond with Venat and have everything happen exactly the way it did. They wrote backwards from the conclusion. They put this story together in a minute and didn't think about the implications. That is the explanation. For god's sake there is a literal mind-wipe device machina'd into the plot just to somehow make the timeloop possible. This is clearly a rushed and carelessly put together mess of a storyline. Don't take it any more seriously than the writers did.

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Exactly.

Wow this thread took off.

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

Although it was last seen just about visible beneath Zodiark's platform during 'The Dark Inside' I don't recall that there was any explanation regarding what purpose it served and what happened to it (following the Dark Inside trial). I mean, it's probably fair to assume that it served much the same purpose as the Mothercrystal, but I don't think it was ever confirmed one way or the other.

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That's entirely true. Zodiark's Crystal fell through a plot hole and was never seen again.

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Originally Posted by Eisi

The solution is that obviously the writers didn't intend for there to be a genocide. Yes, Venat consciously decided that it was the best course of action without alternative, but that is because the writers wanted you to travel back in time, meet her, don't create an alternate timeline like G'raha, retain a conscious bond with Venat and have everything happen exactly the way it did. They wrote backwards from the conclusion. They put this story together in a minute and didn't think about the implications. That is the explanation. For god's sake there is a literal mind-wipe device machina'd into the plot just to somehow make the timeloop possible. This is clearly a rushed and carelessly put together mess of a storyline. Don't take it any more seriously than the writers did.

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Writers do things that dont always make sense. My favorite novel series has its fair share of moments.where the author brain farted resulting in one or more characters brain farting in some manner.

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Originally Posted by Eisi

The solution is that obviously the writers didn't intend for there to be a genocide.

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I'm not entirely convinced of this. What it seems to be the mostly likely case of what happened here was that given Shadowbringers, they'd decided to go with the twist of Zodiark being good and Venat evil given the whole expansion was about not judging darkness as bad and light as good. Unless you headcannon Zodiark eating babies, this fits with everything we know about the two of them. But then it seems like some executive decided, no, I want light to be good and dark to be evil and it was too late to change any of their actions and so they added in dynamis to add a genetic excuse to the genocide. This is the only way I can imagine us getting to where we got. Because I can think of a zillion ways to make her a good person coming off of Shadowbringers, but Venat chose the evil at every prompt. Even with the terrible writing, just mind wiping her too and having the Sundering be an attempted nerf that turned into reducing the population to monke would have worked. But having her do everything she did with full knowledge of the consequences to produce the WoL, there is no explanation for that except she was written to be an anti-villain. And it would have been a pretty good story had they committed to what they wrote and not tried to convince us that someone who wipes out her species and sets her coworkers up to commit multiple genocides is good actually even with the cheese of the memory wipe and time travel.

Given the plot of Pandemonium and Omega Beyond the Rift, I feel like that conflict between what they wrote and how it's being presented is still a fight going on with them. Like someone there knows this chick is evil, but it feels like they are being forced to act like she's not. It's like watching the Carebears, then seeing the Carebears murder a bunch of kids and being told the kids deserved to die, else why would the Carebears murder them. That is the upside-down land one of my favorite MMOs has turned into because of EW's garbage writing.

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

Is alright if you cant shrug it off. There are things I cant ignore just none at the moment have been put into the game. Atrocities against childern for one I cant stand or ignore such a thing. The animes promised neverland and into the abyss I wont touch cause they display and mention horrid acts against childern.

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You don't think Venat sundered any kids when she sundered the world? How many parents sacrificed themselves so that their children would live only to watch their kids butchered, helpless to help them? I'm sure many parents spent 12k years as an aether shield for the shredded pieces of their kids. Not to mention, when she released the Ascians to do the rejoinings, to preserve the timeline, she knows that will require millions of people to die, babies burning in their cribs as their shard falls to fire, or drowning to death as it falls to water, or freezing to de...her actions led to many, many, many dead kids.

But hey, survival of the fittest. They should have been born on the Source if they didn't want to die horrib...oh wait, no, generations of people died horribly in each calamity, short of being the WoL, nothing spares you from a horrible death in this new world. But even the WoL's lifespan has been reduced by thousands of years, so rip. But hey, at least we get to be the superior race. Superior at enduring pain. It's so dark. Why is it this dark? I feel like EW set out to turn me into Fandaniel.