Tales from the Dawn

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

No one is saying this. The vast majority of the ancients were on a course that would have ensure their world's, their own lives, and the universe's(no one knew at the time) death with no rebirth. In order to stop them the sundering was used. This has nothing to do with them deserving to go. This is they have to be stopped from their present course before they kill us all.

The moment Meteion escaped was the moment the final days were set to happen. They had no way of getting to her and Zodiark is their only real solution, to stop their world from dying right on the spot. I think you misremembered the order of events.

The Garleans are a different matter, had it not been for Zenos and Fandaniel the original plan was to invade from the east and west liberating the nations the empire has conquered. Wouldn't have been a kill them all type deal but the humanitarian aid mission that we ended up doing would most likely be for the nations liberated, not for the Garleans.

Again, no one is saying that they had to accept it, there was a fight and they lost. Had they won, we all die.

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We wouldn't have died though, XIV already established that the future can not be changed via Shadow Bringers Tales sharing that Graha future did not cease to exist & the Black Rose time line still exist despite our changing of history. The Timeline that the sundering happened in happen Venat could've shared the info of Meteon in the loop time line & they could've devised a way to Meteon & we still would've dealt with her in our time line, thus both times could've been saved Emet Laha Eli etc would not cease to exist in our realm despite change to past all that happened to that point in our time line would still have happened.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

There are several plot hooks and lines in the game revolving around aged souls. Namely all the ones with the Echo, but further still, things like the Auspices. Which for all intents and purposes appear to be near immortal animals who grow more powerful as they age.

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Auspices seem to be significant due to the age of their body, rather than their soul.

Perhaps the soul has something to do with them living that long in the first place, but they didn't go into that level of detail.

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Originally Posted by Lord_Umbra

We wouldn't have died though, XIV already established that the future can not be changed via Shadow Bringers Tales sharing that Graha future did not cease to exist & the Black Rose time line still exist despite our changing of history. The Timeline that the sundering happened in happen Venat could've shared the info of Meteon in the loop time line & they could've devised a way to Meteon & we still would've dealt with her in our time line, thus both times could've been saved Emet Laha Eli etc would not cease to exist in our realm despite change to past all that happened to that point in our time line would still have happened.

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Here's a thing, though: even if she did use that information to find another way to defeat Meteion and avert the Final Days entirely, creating a new branch of history, we will not see it happen in our timeline.

We are the equivalent of the people in the Black Rose timeline who will never see the effects of G'raha successfully averting the Calamity. It remains as the history of their world.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

Again, no one is saying that they had to accept it, there was a fight and they lost. Had they won, we all die.

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I more or less agree. Venat did not just wake up and decide to Sunder the world because of the 'lols' or because she wanted them all dead. I recently rewatched that post Elpis scene (Which I know is kinda more an allegory then actual events) but we see Venant try and convince her fellows that more death was not the answer, but they refused to listen and choose to try and regain the past that was lost via more and more death. There where multiple factors in ultimately deciding to perform the Sundering, from just how far the Ancients where planning to go to save themselves, to the lingering threat of Meteion and how she could be defeated. To all we know she may have tried to avoid the events we told her about, but came to the conclusion that this was the only way.

You know, its a shame FFXIV does not do novels or anything. The short stories are great, but having a book for example which showed the Final Days in detail would be really interesting.

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Originally Posted by Lord_Umbra

We wouldn't have died though, XIV already established that the future can not be changed via Shadow Bringers Tales sharing that Graha future did not cease to exist & the Black Rose time line still exist despite our changing of history. The Timeline that the sundering happened in happen Venat could've shared the info of Meteon in the loop time line & they could've devised a way to Meteon & we still would've dealt with her in our time line, thus both times could've been saved Emet Laha Eli etc would not cease to exist in our realm despite change to past all that happened to that point in our time line would still have happened.

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That would have been interesting, though I must admit I still find the time travel notion in FFXIV a bit unclear. To me, it feels like we where always apart of what happened in Elpis and its something that could not be changed, hence why Hydaelyn says at the start that she wants to keep her promise etc. This is of course different to what happened to Gra as his OG timeline still lives on… another reason why I need to replay Endwalker. It reminds me of how Avengers Endgame went through great pains explaining its time travel, only to mess it up at the end. Why do fictional stories always make it sound more confusing the it is? (He says, as someone who's favourite show of all time is Doctor Who)

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

No one is saying this. The vast majority of the ancients were on a course that would have ensure their world's, their own lives, and the universe's(no one knew at the time) death with no rebirth. In order to stop them the sundering was used. This has nothing to do with them deserving to go. This is they have to be stopped from their present course before they kill us all.

The moment Meteion escaped was the moment the final days were set to happen. They had no way of getting to her and Zodiark is their only real solution, to stop their world from dying right on the spot. I think you misremembered the order of events.

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Like, again, a major problem with this short story is that it seems to show that Venat's followers didn't know have all her foreknowledge about Meteion and the factors that made the Sundering 'necessary' in a mechanical sense, but were still enthusiastic participants in this plan to murder everyone on the planet for some vague reason. Reading between the lines, this makes it come across like the writers don't really consider the the technobabble explanation for why the Ancients couldn't have opposed Meteion to be the important part so much as the underlying vibe of the situation.

And I know I say this in every thread, but writing a scenario that expects the player to conclude "oh, well, it couldn't be helped, this race of people had to be exterminated to save the world" is really creepy!

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Originally Posted by Lurina

Like, again, a major problem with this short story is that it seems to show that Venat's followers didn't know have all her foreknowledge about Meteion and the factors that made the Sundering 'necessary' in a mechanical sense, but were still enthusiastic participants in this plan to murder everyone on the planet for some vague reason. Reading between the lines, this makes it come across like the writers don't really consider the the technobabble explanation for why the Ancients couldn't have opposed Meteion to be the important part so much as the underlying vibe of the situation.

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I recognize my bias, and perhaps this is just me engaging in a bit of nitpicking but the line specifically is

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Unable to find the words, the archivist retreated into ritual. He held out a crystal—as he had countless times before—upon which was stored the last chapter of cosmological wisdom Venat had sought. Though she had spoken of its importance, he suspected she withheld the entire truth. Of her glimpse into the future, she had offered precious little.

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Now as far as I can tell, Meteion and Final Days aren’t future knowledge but decidedly past events. When I read this I saw the writers making a distinction between information that pertains to the future, and the threat of Meteion. Once again the lines in Anyder about how “our fate will be the same” if they continue down “that path” do not make sense without that info,and are explicitly referenced in the story. Combined the musings of the Watcher who says that his recollection was limited by design and I see something very different.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Now as far as I can tell, Meteion and Final Days aren’t future knowledge but decidedly past events. When I read this I saw the writers making a distinction between information that pertains to the future, and the threat of Meteion. Once again the lines in Anyder about how “our fate will be the same” if they continue down “that path” do not make sense without that info,and are explicitly referenced in the story. Combined the musings of the Watcher who says that his recollection was limited by design and I see something very different.

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I admitted earlier that it's as not clear about her withholding information on Meteion as it is about her information of the future, but like I said, it seems to show it. This story is from the perspective of the Watcher pre-sacrifice, and he doesn't mention her or anything that suggests he knows what the true cause of the Final Days, talking only about the Ancients clinging to the past and so on. (Also, while what happened with Meteion is a past event, Venat's knowledge of the Final Days in specific and their exact mechanism is based on foreknowledge, but that's nitpicking myself.)

It's possible the writers did intend him to have been told about the dynamis problem, but that just takes us to back to what I've been saying since the first page: Why didn't they tell us, and thusly make him look like less of an fanatic? Why did they seem to go out of their way to avoid all of the potential writing decisions which could soften the group's actions, even by passing implication?

For some of those, it might just be that they realized the writing surrounding the Sundering scenario was basically held together with sticky tape, and that elaborating too much would just create more problems. But in this case, there would be literally no downside to making it clear that Hydaelyn's faction was in the know. Like you said, the Watcher had only a fragment of his original memories, so it wouldn't even have created a continuity problem. They would have come across as more reasonable at 0 cost to the broader narrative.

So why? The only answer I can reach is "because they don't think it's important". That they consider the pure ideological justification for the Sundering cause enough.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Auspices seem to be significant due to the age of their body, rather than their soul.

Perhaps the soul has something to do with them living that long in the first place, but they didn't go into that level of detail.

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Souls obviously age along with the body. All that's unclear is if they lived that long because their soul was already old, or if it's because they have a soul at all/multiple souls.

In Shintoism, Kami are said to have four souls that comprise their total spirit. The Ara-Mitama. The Nigi-Mitama. The Saki-Mitama. The Kushi-Mitama.

While the Auspice questlines don't go into that split decidedly, they center around quelling the Ara-Mitama, which was a custom to settle the Kami's spirit so that they would aid people and the world with their better aspects, their other souls.

All in all, we can deduce that the Auspices all have special souls. Whether that specialness, again, is big, many, or old is somewhat up for debate ( heck it could be all of those at once!).

I go with old though, because of Soroban's potential and training. Upon using the special box from Swallow's Compass, it ages Soroban tremendously. The effects are temporary on his body, but what of his soul?

Think forward then to Suzaku. After she underwent, "The Change." She says she was able to, "Control immortality." Becoming a phoenix true.

And all of the Auspices, once they've lived long enough and have changed on the aetheric level are able to morph their bodies using aether into a completely new shape. Generally more humanoid. Heck, in Suzaku's battle, her Ara-Mitama disrupts the Lifestream in order to fuel her transformation. Which she then refers to as her, "true form."

If it were merely about their bodies, wouldn't they all be the same animal? It's all about the soul.

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Originally Posted by Lord_Umbra

We wouldn't have died though, XIV already established that the future can not be changed via Shadow Bringers Tales sharing that Graha future did not cease to exist & the Black Rose time line still exist despite our changing of history. The Timeline that the sundering happened in happen Venat could've shared the info of Meteon in the loop time line & they could've devised a way to Meteon & we still would've dealt with her in our time line, thus both times could've been saved Emet Laha Eli etc would not cease to exist in our realm despite change to past all that happened to that point in our time line would still have happened.

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The final days began shortly after Meteion got away. There would have been no way to counter dyanimis nor get to her to even consider fighting her. Once they summon Zodiark, the majority begin clamoring for those who willingly gave themselves to come back, at the cost of more lives.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

The final days began shortly after Meteion got away. There would have been no way to counter dyanimis nor get to her to even consider fighting her. Once they summon Zodiark, the majority begin clamoring for those who willingly gave themselves to come back, at the cost of more lives.

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It's not clear how much time passed between Meteion's escape and the Ancients' Final Days.

That said while we could have changed the past, as Elidibus tells us before we make the jump should we prevent the Final Days and Sundering it would prevent us from returning to the relative present... and as we know split timelines are a thing, doom everyone on Etheirys and its reflections to a grisly fate, or damn near it. (I suppose some people could get away in the moon ark, but who's to say how many?)

The way things worked out was probably the best we could have managed. Had we not gone to Elpis not even Venat would be aware of the source of the Song of Oblivion or what it was fueled by. I think she should have told the truth after Zodiark was summoned consequences be damned, but that wasn't my call to make.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

It's not clear how much time passed between Meteion's escape and the Ancients' Final Days.

That said while we could have changed the past, as Elidibus tells us before we make the jump should we prevent the Final Days and Sundering it would prevent us from returning to the relative present... and as we know split timelines are a thing, doom everyone on Etheirys and its reflections to a grisly fate, or damn near it. (I suppose some people could get away in the moon ark, but who's to say how many?)

The way things worked out was probably the best we could have managed. Had we not gone to Elpis not even Venat would be aware of the source of the Song of Oblivion or what it was fueled by. I think she should have told the truth after Zodiark was summoned consequences be damned, but that wasn't my call to make.

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We aren't given a firm date or anything but I'd wager it was sooner, a week or two before effects were seen on the planet. She should have told more people, at least pull more people to her side instead of having the vast majority siding with the fourteen