*Spoilers* The Past and After the Endwalker MSQ End

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

I did not expect Zenos of all people to drop such a good chain of relevant lines but I love being proven wrong:

https://i.imgur.com/alvYVPr.jpg

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God, I forgot about that line, and it resonates so hard with the central debate they put forward; they saw this coming.

In truth, very few people were swayed by Venat's reasons or motivations. That's not to say that those aren't compelling, but by the time she said them, we'd already decided how we feel about it. It's no longer persuasive, it's just evidence for where we'd already landed.

Just like how, ultimately, no reason of Zenos' ever could have swayed Jullus. He wasn't looking for a good reason, he was looking for another avenue of attack.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

My use of the hypotheticals was to demonstrate that knowing of something, and knowing a basic form of its workings, does not equal being an expert. If you read my post, you'd know I brought those up to discuss whether Venats understanding of aether currents was enough to do what Hermes did. It isn't.

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Why are you so certain of that, when all we're actually told he did was make the connection between the stagnating currents and the outbreaks of the Final Days? We are never given a technical reason for his import beyond that, yet it is also a connection that was already known to Venat. At no point is it said that nobody else's understanding was insufficient, rather it is simply that Hermes ended up being the one because he was positioned to do so.

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Given neither were widely understood, and his particular interests led him to experiment with them, yes. His desire to find extraterrestrial life and his emotions led him to experiment with Dynamis, his interest in flight and high altitude concepts led him to study celestial currents, and his position at Elpis clearly shows that he's an exceptional scholar even before rising to the seat of Fandaniel.

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Hermes motives are one thing, it is his supposed sole authority that beggars belief. In reality even unparalleled experts in certain fields are not literally the only authority in their field, let alone in multiple. Meanwhile Hermes is supposed to be the head researcher not just in the study and creation of life - Something that like half the Convocation are supposed to be the preeminent experts on - but also the only one anywhere to have adept knowledge on two other phenomenon? To put it into perspective, this is like the head of the World Health Organization being the only person in the world to have researched both the workings of Earth's magnetic fields and discovered Dark Energy.

It should not be surprising that a narrative asking us to believe that a single person was simply so unique and indispensable that it was better to allow billions to die rather than risk upsetting him is an extremely questionable decision, both ethically and logistically.

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then why did Hythlo and Emet agree that Venats plan was the right one in the end?

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Because everything was already done and set on that path by virtue of the game needing to exist, and the writers wanted to comfortably wrap everything into a happy bow where everyone's favorite characters don't detest each other. You'll notice that despite being the cause of everything and killing trillions of people respectively, Hermes and Meteion are almost always given eminent sympathy and are presented in happiness with the others in the closing art.

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She and her followers warned them that what they were doing was not solving the issue, and in fact, was leading humanity down the path of destruction. They ignored her,

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What exactly were they supposed to do when Venat was withholding the reasoning behind her position? If somebody were to tell you to destroy your computer because having it would ruin you, would you do it despite not knowing that it was infected with malware that was in the process of stealing all of your personal information?

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they have their ability to be objective on matters pertaining to the god they were tempered by compromised.

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We do not know to what degree they were influenced, if at all. The Loporrits and Emet in ShB would suggest very little.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

He wasn't looking for a good reason, he was looking for another avenue of attack.

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Put another way, genocide becomes justifiable if you have a "good reason", even if it was once considered so abhorrent that it must have been an accident.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Put another way, genocide becomes justifiable if you have a "good reason", even if it was once considered so abhorrent that it must have been an accident.

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Indeed. A reminder of how our own biases can define how we look at things.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

We do not know to what degree they were influenced, if at all. The Loporrits and Emet in ShB would suggest very little.

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Emet spends half his screentime in ShB fawning over Zodiark. Sure he's not a happy little bundle of cackling craziness about it like Lahabrea, but he's clearly simping hard for old Zodi.

That and he outright describes himself as tempered IIRC. We've never known even the most lightly tempered go against their god.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Why are you so certain of that.

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Because, if that were true, then Venat could have removed him from the Convocation. Which then begs the question, if that were true why wouldn’t she. She had all the reason to do so. The repeated statements that Hermes was invaluable and that he worked both to identify the cause and find a solution to the Final Days explains it perfectly. And why the prerequisite of a technical reason? We don’t need to know the details to trust the fact that if multiple people say he is necessary, then he is.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Hermes motives are one thing, it is his supposed sole authority that beggars belief...

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First, the Convocation demonstrates how specialized researchers in Amaurot become given how they focus on different forms of life. Second, unlike with modern researchers, natural aptitude to different forms of Aetherial manipulation also impacts they’re ability to do research. We see this reflected in Emet, whose aptitude for seeing souls makes him predisposed to the seat and to be an expert on the Aetherial realm. Hermes demonstrates in our fight with him an exceedingly good use of wind aether, as well a deep passion for the subject. Him being a pioneer in those relatively unknown fields of study makes sense. Celestial aether currents and dynamis have no known applications until Hermes utilizes them. Even in our world an unexplainable, unusable phenomenon would have few dedicated research efforts, until someone makes it worth looking into. There’s no reason to believe that the information that Hermes imparts on us of the subjects is not a product of his own research.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

It should not be surprising…

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Without context I wouldn’t be able to tell if you’re referring to the WoL or Hermes here.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Because everything was already done…

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Because as much as the consequences of their actions are horrifying, the reasons, the intent, was worthy of empathy. Hermes was emotional isolated, facing an existential crisis and the destruction of his last hope for life when we fought in Elpis. Meteion was a being created with the uncontrollable power to feel the emotions of others, and found herself in a void surrounded by the damned and despairing souls of the universe. Just like with Emet, I can say their actions are wrong, but I cannot hate them for it.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

What exactly were they supposed to do when Venat was withholding the reasoning behind her position?

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If you had the ability to tell if a person was lying, multiple people were just ruined by something to do with the computer and this person was a good friend, yeah I’d say I’d believe them.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

We do not know to what degree they were influenced, if at all. The Loporrits and Emet in ShB would suggest very little.

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We don’t disagree. I’m just saying it didn’t help.

The tempered thing is a huge "so what?"

Revealing the true cause of the Final Days does not imply Zodiark would need to go. Quite the opposite. So it's not as though anyone is saying their god - who saved the world, restored it and continued to shield it - is the issue. Zodiark had to be maintained to form a shield around the world. Their entire dispute centered around those souls caught inside him; in order to keep him functional in his role, it is plausible he'd require an exchange of aether to release them. Also, we are looking at Emet 12k years later, and while he does say they're tempered, he frames this in particular around Zodiark's aspect of darkness and the Ascians acting as transmission belts of that. This is a known aspect of tempering, alignment to the Primal's aether, but it is only one part of it. As a primal lacking a presiding will to compel them to do anything, and without the flawed rites used in the beast tribe summonings, I am wholly unpersuaded that said tempering would pose an issue in their discussions or to them believing Venat's story, particularly when Elidibus himself emerged from Zodiark to mediate a dispute. Considering what Zodiark is (an entity formed of the collective will of his people to save their star), I am not surprised that Emet exhibits reverence to him... and even so he was willing to give the WoL a chance and deviate from his original plan... 12k years later.

Regarding Emet's concession on their methods, there is not much reason to take this to refer to ancient society as such, when we could simply go with the much more plausible explanation of it referring to the Rejoining plan, which is not really what Veloran is arguing about - which is to say the scenario where the ancients were given that information before the Sundering. And I have to say, unless she were to spill the beans on her reasoning and ditch the platitudes, I see very little reason as to why they ought to heed her and forestall releasing their people from Zodiark.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

Emet spends half his screentime in ShB fawning over Zodiark. Sure he's not a happy little bundle of cackling craziness about it like Lahabrea, but he's clearly simping hard for old Zodi.

That and he outright describes himself as tempered IIRC. We've never known even the most lightly tempered go against their god.

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Almost all of Emet's time in ShB is spent acting against Zodiark's best interests. If he was so intent only on serving Zodiark, he could have simply killed WoL (much easier said than done but far from impossible) and left it at that fairly early on. This is highlighted in Endwalker when past-Emet questions why he would ever willingly invite his own demise to his doorstep to defeat him, not knowing that future-Emet set it all up in an attempt to find another way than the rejoining plan.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Because, if that were true, then Venat could have removed him from the Convocation. Which then begs the question, if that were true why wouldn’t she. She had all the reason to do so. The repeated statements that Hermes was invaluable and that he worked both to identify the cause and find a solution to the Final Days explains it perfectly. And why the prerequisite of a technical reason? We don’t need to know the details to trust the fact that if multiple people say he is necessary, then he is.

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Metatextually, Venat couldn't remove him because they were trying to set up a timeloop and if she had done so the game never would have happened. Hence we have a very vague and flimsy justification presented for why she couldn't. This is clearly not something we are intended to dwell on, because thinking about it too much undermines the narrative.

As to the "technical reason" point - From the outset it should be clear that if Venat didn't have some prerequisite technical knowledge that needed to be used that only Hermes had, then she obviously couldn't know about that knowledge to know that they would need it. This is why the writing leaves it in vagaries, because logically Venat could not possibly know that he was necessary beyond the fact that he was smart and a smart person could theoretically be useful. In other words, Venat risks billions of lives on a very spurious basis, which again we are not supposed to inspect.

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First, the Convocation demonstrates how specialized researchers in Amaurot become given how they focus on different forms of life.

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Yes, they are all quite specialized. Except for Hermes, who is a lone specialist in several unrelated yet plot-critical fields of study. For example they have experts in aquatic, terrestrial, and fungal/plant life - But no specialist in avian life?

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Without context I wouldn’t be able to tell if you’re referring to the WoL or Hermes here.

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The extremely questionable ethics and logistics in fact apply just as equally to WoL as to Hermes. Because as Vyrerus pointed out much better than I in another thread,

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Because it's not mankind nor the concept of man that accepts, and is given the actual test; then passes it. It is one, idealized and idolized individual. An anointed chosen one birthed by the murder of original man. Prepared and groomed for the role, and given every tool past, present, and future to ensure success. If all of that is what's required to be worthy of life, then no basic concept for the worthiness of life exists.

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I would argue that WoL's role in the narrative significantly undermines some of the presented themes as espoused by Venat, and the framing of her 12,000-year promise to WoL kind of makes it look like she destroyed her race and made countless billions of people suffer all for the sake of one person's existence.

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Because as much as the consequences of their actions are horrifying, the reasons, the intent, was worthy of empathy. Hermes was emotional isolated, facing an existential crisis and the destruction of his last hope for life when we fought in Elpis. Meteion was a being created with the uncontrollable power to feel the emotions of others, and found herself in a void surrounded by the damned and despairing souls of the universe. Just like with Emet, I can say their actions are wrong, but I cannot hate them for it.

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It's not so much they themselves I'm taking issue with here, rather it's the way the story is presenting them. For example in ShB Emet and Elidibus were framed as quite tragic figures, but their flaws and villainous elements are still clearly shown to the player, their wrongdoing was itself never in question even if the justness of their core cause was.

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If you had the ability to tell if a person was lying, multiple people were just ruined by something to do with the computer and this person was a good friend, yeah I’d say I’d believe them.

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If I could tell someone was lying I should think that would make me less inclined to believe them, not more.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Regarding Emet's concession on their methods, there is not much reason to take this to refer to ancient society as such, when we could simply go with the much more plausible explanation of it referring to the Rejoining plan, which is not really what Veloran is arguing about - which is to say the scenario where the ancients were given that information before the Sundering. And I have to say, unless she were to spill the beans on her reasoning and ditch the platitudes, I see very little reason as to why they ought to heed her and forestall releasing their people from Zodiark.

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He could have just said 'our plan would not have worked' if that's what he meant. The much more plausible explanation is that he is refering to all the methods he had at his disposal.

Sorry but no cigar. "Our plan" is not fundamentally any clearer in this case than "our methods", especially when the group he most recently belonged to is the Ascians, applying a very specific set of methods to restore mankind and the star, but at the 11th hour. I understand you want to believe that statement applied to the possibility of what Veloran is discussing above, where she reveals this knowledge to the ancients, and you can believe that - I certainly do not - but understand that it's not particularly convincing in cementing the notion that any methods the ancients had available to hone dynamis, either via facilities like Ktisis Hyperboreia, or via proxy methods, or even just by sundering a select few (given that just a few sundered sufficed to dispatch Endsinger, in spite of hoarding many stars' worth of despair) would not have succeeded. That would be a rather huge stretch. Out of interest, I also checked the FR version, and I would note that his statement is broader in EN, whereas in FR he is more specific in attributing to her (as opposed to their) methods the act of setting foot on Ultima Thule... partly accomplished, let's not forget, by tagging Meteion, as well as Sharlayan devising an escape pod. I am not sure what the JP version says, but if we say they're similar in their narrower scope, to me this undermines this as some broad sweeping statement about the ability of the ancients to devise a/any counter to Meteion had they had been told more, or even as a reference to the Ascian methods, and is just referring to getting there. A much narrower scope, I am sure you'll agree.

Remember that when Emet said that line, he had the knowledge that was taken and 'hidden' from him, and still says it would've worked. And he's had some time to dwell on it all, too. And yet he doesn't turn up mad that things were kept from him or certain that there was another way; he just gives Venat credit for doing what they couldn't have.

So me, that doesn't just mean the literal interpretation of saying 'the Rejoinings wouldn't have worked while this did'; he's been gifted with essentially omniscient perspective on this issue, and still thinks Venat made the right choice, never alluding to 'oh but there were other ways'. Since Emet is the sort of guy that'd absolutely take every opportunity to be superior, I take that to mean that there just wasn't a way to be superior about this.