What's next for new jobs after Endwalker.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

It depends on how the puppet works really. What if you had a puppet that mimicked your actions, so you preform the animations from a distance, and the puppet copies you as a type of range weapon. That's how Ghepetto played in Shadow Hearts Covenant, an old turn-based RPG. It's a little difficult to find people using his attacks since he was a more magic oriented character, but I found this small example:

https://youtu.be/OygpWqFoqLY?t=6197

If you held your puppet and they jumped to life to animate with you, that also could be a direction to go in for the job. I just think our community has a difficult time looking based the most obvious iteration of a job's idea, often because of how it worked in a past title, but why limit ourselves?

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Isn't that how lulu's dolls acted in ff10?

There are so many potential ways one could do puppet master, have it be range physical and the doll is the main arm, have it be a caster and it's the medium (take a bit from Naruto >.>), have the job be a melee and use the tech they use for demis for the doll the possibilities are endless if you're creative enough. I'd imagine that they'd take from Naruto personally since that's like the most prominent puppet mastery out there (that I know of). Also personally would love to fight like anise

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Originally Posted by Rymi64

Isn't that how lulu's dolls acted in ff10?

There are so many potential ways one could do puppet master, have it be range physical and the doll is the main arm, have it be a caster and it's the medium (take a bit from Naruto >.>), have the job be a melee and use the tech they use for demis for the doll the possibilities are endless if you're creative enough. I'd imagine that they'd take from Naruto personally since that's like the most prominent puppet mastery out there (that I know of). Also personally would love to fight like anise

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Very lightly, yeah. The doll would mimic her when she casted a high level spell, and her normal attack that you never used would have her set the doll down to run up and kick the enemy. Not a particularly inspiring direction to look at in terms of animation potential and "cool" factor, which is why I felt like Geppetto was a better example.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

It depends on how the puppet works really. What if you had a puppet that mimicked your actions, so you preform the animations from a distance, and the puppet copies you as a type of range weapon. That's how Ghepetto played in Shadow Hearts Covenant, an old turn-based RPG. It's a little difficult to find people using his attacks since he was a more magic oriented character, but I found this small example:

https://youtu.be/OygpWqFoqLY?t=6197

If you held your puppet and they jumped to life to animate with you, that also could be a direction to go in for the job. I just think our community has a difficult time looking based the most obvious iteration of a job's idea, often because of how it worked in a past title, but why limit ourselves?

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This seems quite likely to suffer the same problems as other pet jobs. But even if it didn't and they managed to pull off a strict 1-to-1 mimicry with no dropped or missed actions...I'm not sure why they would insist on keeping up the illusion of a pet job with a poorly defined sense of melee and/or range distancing?

PUP was in *one* game. And it was really more of a redesign of a necromancer concept than its own clear identity. And the idea of controlling automatons is already appropriated by the MCH. There just isn't a particularly strong reason to revisit the job, especially if there are stronger alternatives.

And in this case, when considering the above points, I think some sort of enchanted mech-suit deal would kind of eclipse puppetmaster on all accounts. And I don't even think the better ideas are limited strictly to mech-suits that you wear or ride. I could easily see a job animating golems or taloses to be a stronger concept than puppetmaster as well, one that is at least more directly involved in XIV's worldbuilding and doesn't tread on MCH's toes.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

This seems quite likely to suffer the same problems as other pet jobs. But even if it didn't and they managed to pull off a strict 1-to-1 mimicry with no dropped or missed actions...I'm not sure why they would insist on keeping up the illusion of a pet job with a poorly defined sense of melee and/or range distancing?

PUP was in *one* game. And it was really more of a redesign of a necromancer concept than its own clear identity. And the idea of controlling automatons is already appropriated by the MCH. There just isn't a particularly strong reason to revisit the job, especially if there are stronger alternatives.

And in this case, when considering the above points, I think some sort of enchanted mech-suit deal would kind of eclipse puppetmaster on all accounts. And I don't even think the better ideas are limited strictly to mech-suits that you wear or ride. I could easily see a job animating golems or taloses to be a stronger concept than puppetmaster as well, one that is at least more directly involved in XIV's worldbuilding and doesn't tread on MCH's toes.

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Well if they were to go with the mimicking idea it could be a physical ranged and you do the animations and the puppet copies, no need for a.i or anything, even so they could do it like how they did reaper and its avatar.

AST was also in one game with one move and it got turned into its own thing so thats not really that big of a problem. And while mch yes has a robot having another job that controls a robot wouldn't be a problem since the robot isnt the main thing of mch its machinery in general.

If the puppet uses a different way of movement (for example the puppet is clockwork) it wouldn't be stepping on mch's toes and puppets are already part of the world of FF14, just look at uldah, sharlayan, the clockwork puppets in the far east. There are many different avenues that one could go through to have a original concept for the job the only limiting factor is the persons mind.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

This seems quite likely to suffer the same problems as other pet jobs. But even if it didn't and they managed to pull off a strict 1-to-1 mimicry with no dropped or missed actions...I'm not sure why they would insist on keeping up the illusion of a pet job with a poorly defined sense of melee and/or range distancing?

PUP was in *one* game. And it was really more of a redesign of a necromancer concept than its own clear identity. And the idea of controlling automatons is already appropriated by the MCH. There just isn't a particularly strong reason to revisit the job, especially if there are stronger alternatives.

And in this case, when considering the above points, I think some sort of enchanted mech-suit deal would kind of eclipse puppetmaster on all accounts. And I don't even think the better ideas are limited strictly to mech-suits that you wear or ride. I could easily see a job animating golems or taloses to be a stronger concept than puppetmaster as well, one that is at least more directly involved in XIV's worldbuilding and doesn't tread on MCH's toes.

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Your assuming that the puppet is a literal pet and not just a part of your weapon's animation. If the puppet is treated as a weapon that you hold, whether in your hand like the example or like with Lulu, or if you held it in front of you with strings, then there's no reason that it even needs to be a pet. Just because the most obvious solution to approach jobs like Beastmaster and Puppetmaster involves a pet does not mean that's the only solution, nor the best solution. In the Geppetto example, that doll is not a "pet" that he summons to act on its own independantly from his own turns, but an extension of his attacks and spellcasting. The same is true for Lulu, and even Cait Sith who was basically playing like the Anise example by riding his moogle doll and commanding it with a megaphone.

I didn't play FFXI but wasn't the whole point of PUP that it could fill every role by building it however you want outside of combat? If that's not done in 14 the puppet would need a new purpose.

I suppose it could just be a weird weapon, that's how a bunch of jobs in 14 started but methinks that would be a disservice to what the job could be with how unique the whole puppet idea is.

It could have a flanking mechanic with positionals and maybe a better way to move it around than what's currently in game. Talk about a headache. It could be used to store attacks so you can maintain uptime while far away or unleash a barrage of some sort at a particular time, maybe even make it explode then reassemble during downtime. The whole job could be like playing a mini-game of moving the puppet around and giving it broad commands while it handles the details on its own. What else... I'm sure there are better ideas but that's all I have for now.

What is it people like about pet jobs? I hate pets so idk what'd be fun or not.

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Originally Posted by Tulzscha

I didn't play FFXI but wasn't the whole point of PUP that it could fill every role by building it however you want outside of combat? If that's not done in 14 the puppet would need a new purpose.

I suppose it could just be a weird weapon, that's how a bunch of jobs in 14 started but methinks that would be a disservice to what the job could be with how unique the whole puppet idea is.

It could have a flanking mechanic with positionals and maybe a better way to move it around than what's currently in game. Talk about a headache. It could be used to store attacks so you can maintain uptime while far away or unleash a barrage of some sort at a particular time, maybe even make it explode then reassemble during downtime. The whole job could be like playing a mini-game of moving the puppet around and giving it broad commands while it handles the details on its own. What else... I'm sure there are better ideas but that's all I have for now.

What is it people like about pet jobs? I hate pets so idk what'd be fun or not.

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I feel like my attempts to explain how these jobs don't need to be pet jobs is falling on deaf ears. There are so many unique directions you could take with the concepts of PUP and BST without having to make them pet services, and no I don't think that would mean they're disservices to their original conceptions. Case-and-point look at a job like RDM. Is RDM a disservice to the job's origins of being able to flex between DPS and Healer? Is DNC a disservice by not having dances that inflict random status conditions or random healing? What about SGE? I Don't remember the job with the goofy hat in FFIII that's just a better BLM and WHM using Gundam lasers. You can take inspiration from past jobs and use them to create something that's both designed for the combat system we have in FF14 while also being faithful to that job's identity, and the same is true for a PUP that doesn't have a literal pet.

We can't have this hyper-rigid outlook on what a job's potential can only be because that's just not an effective argument against any job concept. I see people interested in a whip-user of some kind, but did you know that whips were pretty bad weapons in FFIV? I guess we can't have a whip-user then because they would suck just like in FFIV.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Your assuming that the puppet is a literal pet and not just a part of your weapon's animation. If the puppet is treated as a weapon that you hold, whether in your hand like the example or like with Lulu, or if you held it in front of you with strings, then there's no reason that it even needs to be a pet. Just because the most obvious solution to approach jobs like Beastmaster and Puppetmaster involves a pet does not mean that's the only solution, nor the best solution. In the Geppetto example, that doll is not a "pet" that he summons to act on its own independantly from his own turns, but an extension of his attacks and spellcasting. The same is true for Lulu, and even Cait Sith who was basically playing like the Anise example by riding his moogle doll and commanding it with a megaphone.

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I was accounting for that concept, and I still don't believe it is a very strong design choice for a job. Functionally, it has a really difficult time balancing against jobs which actually are melee or have melee phases when it is constantly "at arm's length" or further--in which case it really just wants to be a casting job. And aesthetically, I think "doll that copies your moves" is pretty lowest-effort design if we are going that route, when we could have a job designed around golems/taloses or making clones with a mirror.

While I could see some small possibility of the devs trying to adapt the job to XIV, I do not anticipate what we get actually being PUP. Like how:

* Rune Knight from XI was reworked into DRK and RDM;
* Corsair from XI was retooled to MCH;
* Bard from XI was smashed with Ranger to make BRD;
* Samurai is not a tank like in XI;
* Time Mage and Gambler were reworked into AST;
* Chemist was (heavily) retooled into SGE--or Sage was heavily retooled into something resembling an Apothecary;
* Dancer is...something else, huh?

And, at the end of the day, I really just do not like the Puppeteer job fantasy. It's kinda bland, backwater and morbid compared to more mystical or science-fiction animism, and when you start thinking more about the morbidity and how PUP was really just the devs implementing a necromancer job...don't we already kind of have something really similar to what you propose with Reaper summoning an avatar to attack for them?

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

I was accounting for that concept, and I still don't believe it is a very strong design choice for a job. Functionally, it has a really difficult time balancing against jobs which actually are melee or have melee phases when it is constantly "at arm's length" or further--in which case it really just wants to be a casting job. And aesthetically, I think "doll that copies your moves" is pretty lowest-effort design if we are going that route, when we could have a job designed around golems/taloses or making clones with a mirror.

While I could see some small possibility of the devs trying to adapt the job to XIV, I do not anticipate what we get actually being PUP. Like how:

* Rune Knight from XI was reworked into DRK and RDM;
* Corsair from XI was retooled to MCH;
* Bard from XI was smashed with Ranger to make BRD;
* Samurai is not a tank like in XI;
* Time Mage and Gambler were reworked into AST;
* Chemist was (heavily) retooled into SGE--or Sage was heavily retooled into something resembling an Apothecary;
* Dancer is...something else, huh?

And, at the end of the day, I really just do not like the Puppeteer job fantasy. It's kinda bland, backwater and morbid compared to more mystical or science-fiction animism, and when you start thinking more about the morbidity and how PUP was really just the devs implementing a necromancer job...don't we already kind of have something really similar to what you propose with Reaper summoning an avatar to attack for them?

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I feel you're underselling the potential for a puppet master and it is very high considering you could make it a caster and still have it mimic your moves (though really could just make it a physical range). I also think that they could have both a job with golems and a puppet job as separate concepts, the job with talos's being geomancer. Could even have the mirror be its weapon.

While neither of us said we wanted them to pull from ff11 they did pull from FF11 drk with reaper so they could totally do that as well for puppet master.

So reading up on the lore of puppet master in ff11 I see the devs originally were gonna add necromancer but decided it didn't fit and instead added puppet master but I don't see any necromancer concepts inside puppet masters lore so I don't really see how it's morbid. And reusing an existing mechanic isn't bad considering one would be using it all the time while the other uses it for 4 attacks.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

I was accounting for that concept, and I still don't believe it is a very strong design choice for a job. Functionally, it has a really difficult time balancing against jobs which actually are melee or have melee phases when it is constantly "at arm's length" or further--in which case it really just wants to be a casting job. And aesthetically, I think "doll that copies your moves" is pretty lowest-effort design if we are going that route, when we could have a job designed around golems/taloses or making clones with a mirror.

While I could see some small possibility of the devs trying to adapt the job to XIV, I do not anticipate what we get actually being PUP. Like how:

* Rune Knight from XI was reworked into DRK and RDM;
* Corsair from XI was retooled to MCH;
* Bard from XI was smashed with Ranger to make BRD;
* Samurai is not a tank like in XI;
* Time Mage and Gambler were reworked into AST;
* Chemist was (heavily) retooled into SGE--or Sage was heavily retooled into something resembling an Apothecary;
* Dancer is...something else, huh?

And, at the end of the day, I really just do not like the Puppeteer job fantasy. It's kinda bland, backwater and morbid compared to more mystical or science-fiction animism, and when you start thinking more about the morbidity and how PUP was really just the devs implementing a necromancer job...don't we already kind of have something really similar to what you propose with Reaper summoning an avatar to attack for them?

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Well, I strongly disagree that the potentiality of puppetmaster is inherently bland, backwater, or morbid. We're ultimately talking about room to explore for future jobs, and not jobs we specifically want to see or don't want to see.

You don't have to like the concept, but there's plenty of design space for Puppetmaster to develop within respects to the game's mechanics. "I'm not interested in it" is not an argument against the viability of it as a job.

This isn't just for Puppetmaster, but the other FF jobs as well such as Geomancer, Ranger (with crossbows), Gambler, Mystic Knight, Beastmaster, and more fringe concepts like Pictomancer, Omnyoji, or maybe even Festivalist from FFX-2. There's a lot of potential, and I personally feel like it's worth continuing to explore more aspects, especially since this game is looking at a long and healthy lifespan still. I do recognize the exponential work that goes into adding new jobs on the dev side, and that's something I can respect, though I feel the payoff is worth the effect or the extra manpower that may be needed to continue animating, adding weapons, expanding the jobs, etc.