Suggestion for: RDM improvements

Why? The elemental spells all generate more mana than their equivalent balance spells, and it's only the base spells in the single target rotation that are ordered in the rotation from lowest to highest mana generated. The AoE and finisher spells are all used in order of lower dps/higher mana ---> higher dps/lower mana. It also makes sense to me that the balance spells are slightly less potent in terms of generating mana due to being generalist spells while the focused spells are more efficient at generating mana due to their focus.

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Originally Posted by Mhaeric

Why? The elemental spells all generate more mana than their equivalent balance spells, and it's only the base spells in the single target rotation that are ordered in the rotation from lowest to highest mana generated. The AoE and finisher spells are all used in order of lower dps/higher mana ---> higher dps/lower mana. It also makes sense to me that the balance spells are slightly less potent in terms of generating mana due to being generalist spells while the focused spells are more efficient at generating mana due to their focus.

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That wasn't true of Impact when it was a single-target spell. Its combined mana gain was higher than Veraero or Verthunder.

Thus, we have no precedent for "A single-element spell must always contribute more mana than the sum of a dual-element spell's contributions." Impulse broke that rule, if ever it was a thing.

But, let's say we remove Impulse. No old Impulse, nor the new Impulse yet. At that point we'd have made firm another rule, "Long casts generate more mana (combined) than short casts."

In which case... why does new Impulse, a long cast, generate less MP combined than Verthunder II or Veraero II, each short casts?

Edit: My bad there; for some reason I could have sworn old Impact generated 6/6.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

That wasn't true of Impact when it was a single-target spell. Its combined mana gain was higher than Veraero or Verthunder.

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No, Impact generated 4/4, or 8. Verfire generates 0/9, and Veraero generates 11/0.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

That wasn't true of Impact when it was a single-target spell. Its combined mana gain was higher than Veraero or Verthunder.

Thus, we have no precedent for "A single-element spell must always contribute more mana than the sum of a dual-element spell's contributions." Impulse broke that rule, if ever it was a thing.

But, let's say we remove Impulse. No old Impulse, nor the new Impluse yet. At that point we'd have made firm another rule, "Long casts generate more mana (combined) than short casts."

In which case... why does new Impulse, a long cast, generate less MP combined than Verthunder II or Veraero II, each short casts?

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As the previous poster listed, Jolt/Jolt II/Impact always generated less mana than all of the Verspells. Old Jolt was 3/3, Impact was 4/4, Verfire/stone were 9, and Verthunder/aero were 11. The only sort of exception to this was Enchanced Scatter which occured 30% of the time after casting Scatter and gave 10/10 instead of 3/3 for an effective average potency of 4.05/4.05 per GCD. I say sort of exception because there wasn't any AoE elemental spell to compare it to so it existed it its own little bubble of mana gain and the occasional 10/10 didn't actually increase the average potency of the spell that much despite seeming to be such a huge number.

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Originally Posted by Mhaeric

As the previous poster listed, Jolt/Jolt II/Impact always generated less mana than all of the Verspells.

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But not Original Scatter. 3/3 Mana with a 30% chance of 7/7 extra yielded an average of 5.1/5.1 Mana per cast, which once put it as our highest yield short-cast spell (and would put it worth using in single-target if Enhanced popped before then -- which could be kind of an interesting proc now that I think of it, actually, if it buffed Jolt but was procced by other spells).
However, the actual yield isn't my concern since we had Moulinet's cost reduced anyway.

While you are right that Veraero/Verthunder have always generated more Mana per cast than Red spells, the important thing is that before now there also were no long-cast Red spells, which the new Impact outright defies.
It's a curiosity, then, both that a tradeoff for the greater potency per cast is a reduced Mana income (which is not something we face in the main rotation), and that our AoE quickcasts generate more Mana per cast than Jolt.

As I said, unnecessary and largely fueled by personal opinion, I just think it's strange and slightly weakens the impact of... well, Impact.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

But not Original Scatter. 3/3 Mana with a 30% chance of 7/7 extra yielded an average of 5.1/5.1 Mana per cast, which once put it as our highest yield short-cast spell (and would put it worth using in single-target if Enhanced popped before then -- which could be kind of an interesting proc now that I think of it, actually, if it buffed Jolt but was procced by other spells).

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Wrong. The average per cast was 4.05/4.05 per GCD because Enhanced Scatter could not proc itself. It alternated between a guaranteed 3/3 on one GCD and an average of 5.1/5.1 on the second for an overall average of 4.05/4.05 per GCD. This is less than even the weakest Verspell.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

While you are right that Veraero/Verthunder have always generated more Mana per cast than Red spells, the important thing is that before now there also were no long-cast Red spells, which the new Impact outright defies.
It's a curiosity, then, both that a tradeoff for the greater potency per cast is a reduced Mana income (which is not something we face in the main rotation), and that our AoE quickcasts generate more Mana per cast than Jolt.

As I said, unnecessary and largely fueled by personal opinion, I just think it's strange and slightly weakens the impact of... well, Impact.

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You're completely ignoring Verflare/holy into Scorch which is the identical situation to the AoE rotation. Also, if Impact doing almost twice the damage of Verthunder/aero 2 isn't impactful enough for you then I don't know what to say. It makes complete sense that mana type focused spells generate more mana because of that focus and the generalist spells don't. It's practically a trope.

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Originally Posted by Mhaeric

Wrong. The average per cast was 4.05/4.05 per GCD because Enhanced Scatter could not proc itself. It alternated between a guaranteed 3/3 on one GCD and an average of 5.1/5.1 on the second for an overall average of 4.05/4.05 per GCD. This is less than even the weakest Verspell.

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Enhanced Scatter could proc itself.

If we're talking about future improvements to expand on RDM's playstyle then I'd like:

-Verblizzard/Verwater & II: A damage spell that replaces veraero/verthunder (takes precedence over verflare/verholy) when imbalanced towards the opposite element that generates a massive amount of mana (because it'll be halved by the imbalance penalty.) It can apply a DoT that gains a slight potency boost when the opposing element DoT effect is already on the enemy and both DoTs replace each other, or it can just place a self-buff that buffs its opposite spell that gains in strength over time.
This mechanic would honestly be less work to add as a long DoT. The other way as a self-buff would essentially be a stacking buff where the longer you wait to cast the opposite spell, the more damage that spell deals. Basically you'd have a smaller gauge on both sides of the mana bar and when it gets full, you cast the spell that starts the gauge on the opposite side, though at that point you could just call it a polyglot stack that converts verblizzard/verwater into verfreeze/verflood.

-En-chant: Turns all offensive spells into melee En-spell (verfire->Enfire, Jolt->Enjolt, Impact->Enimpact, etc) versions, granting additional a small potency bonus when fulfilling positionals (Rear for Black spells, Flank for White spells.) Fast spells now combo into Slow spells rather than Dualcast into them. In additon, En-spells have half the MP cost.

-Turbocast: Spend MP and mana to gain increased spellspeed. Better than En-chant, but will run out of MP if spammed.

-Runic: Channel to become immune to *all* incoming Magic Damage and negative effects from magic damage on the Red Mage and reduces Magic damage taken by nearby party members, then emits a massive AoE attack.

-AOE spells now generate 1 additional mana for each enemy they hit.

-Verholy II/verflare II aoe spells added.

-Moulinet has a 20% chance to trigger Verholy/Verflare ready.

-Vercure potency and MP cost doubled.

-Skillspeed and Spell speed merged into one stat.


verblizzard/verwater is a natural expansion on Red Mage that plays that gives their fail state a purpose.
Enspell is an alternate expansion that opens up a new playstyle for Redmage without touching the core mechanics.
Turbocast is a thematic fantasy fulfillment of the quick spell spamming Red mage and gives Red mages a "speed farm" rotation where they forgo utility for damage.
Neither Enspell or Turbocast should be overwhelmingly good . You will never be forced into a melee rotation or running dry on MP to deal "competitive" damage (within 10% of highest DPS), but the option remains for a "Mastery" rotation.
AoE gets ST rotation's leftovers.
Red Mage getting Runic comes from Final Fantasy Dimensions. Red Mages have access to En-spells in that game too.
Vercure should be worth casting. This change makes Vercure on par with Cure II and it actually competes with Clemency (better when Tank healing, but doing less otherwise.) MP efficiency wise, it remains the same is now so no, RDM is not replacing a healer.

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Originally Posted by Mhaeric

because Enhanced Scatter could not proc itself.

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You either are misinformed or must've had bad luck, 'cuz it frequently procced itself as Kabooa said. My calculations remain intact.

And even if it didn't, I'm fairly certain your math is incorrect.

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You're completely ignoring Verflare/holy into Scorch which is the identical situation to the AoE rotation.

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You're right, because Scorch is a very new addition that doesn't actually change anything I said about never having had longcast Red spells before, making it nonsequitur to my actual point.
Besides, if we peel apart Verflare/holy then that leaves the question of whether their procs come into the equation, which splits their total value over two GCDs; I don't want to start that debate, which is why I left them out.

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Also, if Impact doing almost twice the damage of Verthunder/aero 2 isn't impactful enough for you then I don't know what to say.

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But that's part of what I mean though -- we get more damage out but we also slow down our Moulinet rotation at the same time. Only by 0.5 Mana per GCD on average, which is tolerable, but still noticeable when generating such small amounts to begin with.

And again... I said it was just personal opinion about the "feel" of the job. There is no functional need to debate this, unless it personally offends your headcanon.

All of the other folks who have posted have definitely gone deeper in on this than I have, so I'll just throw out my own desires for RDM moving forward.
- No DOTs. One of the reasons I love RDM as it exists now is because it doesn't require babysitting DOT timers like so many other classes do. The class has a great flow to it's skills as is so unless the DOTs are just going to be tacked on to skills we already use when we already use them as basically just a potency boost, DOTs should be a no go.

- More interesting/varied AOE. The basic AOE loop is fine but more progression would be nice either in the form of a new AOE cash out for our Balance gauge or maybe some sort of chain/progression for Moulinet so we're not just spamming a single ability. We have a single target melee chain for meter, some sort of chain for AOE would be nice even if it didn't technically change what was happening.

- Respect the basic flow. RDM is often criticized as being easy or braindead, and it admittedly isn't tough to play. But, that said, the way it's designed right now feels extremely smooth and tactile to play. It's active but not overly busy. There are some in-rotation choices you have to make depending on situation/procs/movement needs but little of it is do or die, it's more about optimization. The job does not need any sort of major rework or change. Any changes they do make to the job need to respect the flow and feel of the class as it is now or else it will ruin the job for me even if it does bring the job more in line with what some people feel is thematically/historically appropriate.