What is a "bad player" to you?

to me a bad player is someone who is severly undergeared attempting to do levelling roulette and getting the highest dungeon to them available thus making the run 3-4 times longer than it should take. levelling dungeons really need to have a min ilvl req.

Had a situation when I was in a raid (Orbonne I think) where I died two or three times in quick succession. IIRC it was my first run and while I'd been doing fine before that point, a friend of mine started messaging me in a panic about something work-related. I considered the panic an overreaction (it was mainly 'what if' stuff) but my friend was still very upset, and I did want to help her out of that. So I was trying to both reassure her and DPS simultaneously. I'm console, so the "calm friend down" bit was on laptop while I'm still managing rotation and trying to dodge with controller. Basically one hand typing other hand running and attacking. Didn't feel like I could drop either in good conscience.

One of the healers in the group, when I went down the final time for that boss, told me I wouldn't get a raise unless I swore to run to the other side of the arena. I apologized and explained the situation, got the raise, it was fine... but that exchange felt really really weird to me. I totally accept I was not performing up to standards there. Based on horror stories here and in Duty Finder thread, I also know there are players who are deeply incompetent jerks too. At that stage it was impossible for other people to tell what kind of player I was/why I was having trouble. 100% understand the frustration. Just feel weird about the ransom thing.

I don't have any ill will toward the healer and I wouldn't necessarily call them bad for that moment either. But knowing here people are debating bad player calls a lot, were there things that either of us could have/should have done differently in your opinions? Did we both handle stuff the best way we could have under those circumstances? I hadn't mentioned the issue to my party earlier because typing with controller can take a bit and I didn't want to make things worse with me lagging instead of DPSing.

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Originally Posted by Lilseph

Guess tones don't translate well into text. By no means I'm angry, I was just correcting something you cherry picked from my post. Also, the message goes to everyone, not just you. Because what you said, may be a question or a reply that some other user may have as well. Happy to clarify if there are blurry points in my arguments.

Personally and with all due respect, I'm not a huge fan of the "this is not savage" excuse for not using your tools. I am talking about all the jobs when I say that they should use most if not all of their toolkits. As a personal experience, it's not that it matters too much, I do politely ask the healers to DPS in dungeons if I see they are either standing still or spamming cures on me for no reason. While I'm running to the next pack I type: "Hey (name), feel free to DPS, I don't require much healing so you can go ham". Most of the time I get an "ok" and they start doing it. Too much, too little, I don't care, join us with the contribution. This is giving healer as an example because it's the topic we're discussing the most, but it also applies to any job with skills and utility that can benefit the group one way or another.

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I'll be anecdotal here (aren't we all anyway) and say I have a few RL friends that play this game.

They work 40 hours, some have college lecture afterwards, some have kids and some have to travel for business.

They play this game to tune out during their downtime and feel like a hero without having to put in too much effort. That's what those dungeons are for. Is 5 minutes really that bothersome to you? If so, why solo queue? Because that's who you're going to run into. People like my friends who only play this game minimally as a hobby make up the majority of the population. They're bad players by whatever standard you want to put, whether it's their numbers they're putting up to just healing fulltime to just grabbing single packs of mobs.

Imagine coming home after busting your tail off from work, school and you want to kick back in the easiest way possible in the game and someone tells you to put more effort in an inconsequential piece of content like a tomestone farming dungeon that has the most trivial of requirements (for a reason) to enter. I'd just laugh at them because that's what harder content is for. You don't have to accept the, "it's not savage" excuse, but that's all the excuse most people need to not go full max in something as irrelevant as a tomestone farming dungeon.

I'm not going to presume what you do outside of this game, but I work just like them, I just have the good fortune to not have to go back to school or have any kids, so I can take the time to learn this game as a hobby.

Would I ever tell them to play better? Nah, I don't have the nerve to be that incredulous over a dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Ursa_Vonfiebryd

Me when:

People on another class tell me how I should be playing MY class (unless its actual advice).

People attempt to 'punish' for not playing to their standards.

People derp for the lols but don't care about the 23/7/3 others just trying to get thru this.

People expect more from the group then perform less.

People can't listen/comprehend instruction. Or care.

This is when I'm a bad player. But imitation is the finest form of flattery so, *shrug*.

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So if the person is playing another class, but normally plays your class they're a bad for giving tips because they're not on that class?

Also how is not doing the basics a punishment or that high of a standard? Most here in this thread or in the various other threads really only want that and don't hold anyone to UCoB levels of performance in anything, but that kind of fight.

I once joined a shisui dungeon in progress and the healer was apparently refusing to heal because the other two people vote kicked their dps friend for being afk. Apparently what had happened was the healer had to go away for a while and their friend took over playing for their character to heal and I guess the other two people didn't realize and just saw the DPS being afk and kicked that DPS. So now the healer doesn't want to play with them and did not want to take the penalty for leaving while the other two are refusing to vote kick the healer out of spite and I was caught in the middle of it. Needless to say, we nearly didn't complete the dungeon, but thankfully it was near the end by that point, so we somehow made it through.

When it comes to an MMO where you play with other people, I think those people can be considered "bad players" in that respect.

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Originally Posted by CarnivalNights

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I don't think that reaching that level of gameplay requires that much investment on the game, that's my opinion. But this discussion is what a bad player is, and if your life is holding you back from being a good player, well, that's nothing I can help you with. RL comes first. However, adding to your anectodal experience, I have friends working, attending college and dealing with kids, yet they perform at an amazing level, they raid and get tiers down. So I think we're even in that department.

Both good and bad players will have to deal with the opposite kind of player on DF. If you don't meet their standards, they will yell at you. If you think they are asking more than you can or are willing to give, you'll be yelling at them. PF is an option for both parties. My opinion about what a bad player is still stands, expressed at the begining of the thread and throughout all our discussion.

If you want a personal answer why I don't queue up with friends it's because they are not always available. I want to kill things fast, so setting a PF will make me lose more time than just queueing up and getting people unwilling to do more than their bare minimum. Both situations are equally frustrating.

Would I ever tell them to play better? Yeah, and it has been working most of the time. Dungeon or not. Hopefully that helps them to take off a bit faster when they get paired up with other players. If you know how to approach them, being polite and all, without losing too much time, they will help you out. Then you have the cocky players that would bite you back with foam in their mouths like the user above. I usually bite the bullet under these circunstances, but at least there was an attempt.

Inb4 I'm not having fun. I'm having fun with many other types of contents in this game. I love it, but I have my opinion and standards when it comes to performance. You'll not see me calling someone bad and harass them over it, I'll request and suggest, depending on the situation. There's no excuse for a BRD to not use refresh for the poor healer's MP, when it takes 1 click and working 40 hours a week shouldn't be an obstacle for it. Mere example.

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Originally Posted by CarnivalNights

I'll be anecdotal here (aren't we all anyway) and say I have a few RL friends that play this game.

They work 40 hours, some have college lecture afterwards, some have kids and some have to travel for business.

They play this game to tune out during their downtime and feel like a hero without having to put in too much effort. That's what those dungeons are for. Is 5 minutes really that bothersome to you? If so, why solo queue? Because that's who you're going to run into. People like my friends who only play this game minimally as a hobby make up the majority of the population. They're bad players by whatever standard you want to put, whether it's their numbers they're putting up to just healing fulltime to just grabbing single packs of mobs.

Imagine coming home after busting your tail off from work, school and you want to kick back in the easiest way possible in the game and someone tells you to put more effort in an inconsequential piece of content like a tomestone farming dungeon that has the most trivial of requirements (for a reason) to enter. I'd just laugh at them because that's what harder content is for. You don't have to accept the, "it's not savage" excuse, but that's all the excuse most people need to not go full max in something as irrelevant as a tomestone farming dungeon.

I'm not going to presume what you do outside of this game, but I work just like them, I just have the good fortune to not have to go back to school or have any kids, so I can take the time to learn this game as a hobby.

Would I ever tell them to play better? Nah, I don't have the nerve to be that incredulous over a dungeon.

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I really dislike this kind of mindset.

And I get what you're saying, but once we become indifferent to the playstyles or lack thereof of people we are close to it sort of enables it to continue. I'm pretty sure most of us on here have a life outside of the game, and I don't think having a life outside of the game is an excuse for a lack of effort.

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Originally Posted by CarnivalNights

I'll be anecdotal here (aren't we all anyway) and say I have a few RL friends that play this game.

They work 40 hours, some have college lecture afterwards, some have kids and some have to travel for business.

They play this game to tune out during their downtime and feel like a hero without having to put in too much effort. That's what those dungeons are for. Is 5 minutes really that bothersome to you? If so, why solo queue? Because that's who you're going to run into. People like my friends who only play this game minimally as a hobby make up the majority of the population. They're bad players by whatever standard you want to put, whether it's their numbers they're putting up to just healing fulltime to just grabbing single packs of mobs.

Imagine coming home after busting your tail off from work, school and you want to kick back in the easiest way possible in the game and someone tells you to put more effort in an inconsequential piece of content like a tomestone farming dungeon that has the most trivial of requirements (for a reason) to enter. I'd just laugh at them because that's what harder content is for. You don't have to accept the, "it's not savage" excuse, but that's all the excuse most people need to not go full max in something as irrelevant as a tomestone farming dungeon.

I'm not going to presume what you do outside of this game, but I work just like them, I just have the good fortune to not have to go back to school or have any kids, so I can take the time to learn this game as a hobby.

Would I ever tell them to play better? Nah, I don't have the nerve to be that incredulous over a dungeon.

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I get that but on the other hand, when you queue up to play with randoms, you should be putting in an honest effort, not saying 'screw it I want to relax' and not putting the effort in. You say 'don't queue with randoms if you don't want bads' but at the same time...don't queue with randoms if you're going to slack off because you just want to take it easy. Do something solo or form a full group with friends.

I'm not saying they have to have food buffs and 100% optimal rotations and they can't make any mistakes etc, but when you're doing content with other players, you owe it to them to put in some effort. If they want to unwind and not care at all how they play in something single pleyer more power to them. You group up with people, you owe them an honest effort, not just a shrug and a 'I'm tired let me relax.'

There's a phrase I like 'my right to swing my fist ends at the other guy's nose.'

You can put in as little effort you want relaxing when on your own, but when you're grouping with other players, it's no longer about you, it's about the group, and playing poorly just because you're tired or don't have the effort means dragging other people down. You don't need to be perfect. But you really should either put fort the honest effort or else not queue with randoms.

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Originally Posted by Woffy

Anyway I played most of those games and then some and this is the first game I've heard healers must dps. In most (at least in older games) healers usually have dps for soloing xp, the healer is usually expected to heal/shield, buff/debuff, summon, rezz, aka your basic healer duties.

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I want to start off with saying that I don't bother healers or tell them what to do in the game (unless they are missing a mechanic). When I see a healer who's just standing around I'll either drop or just keep going because I imagine if they're standing around at 70 they simply don't care to utilize half of their skill kit. That's their choice, I accept it. (Heck, it's half the reason I play a healer so often is because then I know the healer will be as active as possible. The other half is because I enjoy it so much) That said it's clearly a better option to use the spare time to increase outgoing damage than to do literally nothing but wait. Unless you're fearing that there's going to be the tankbuster of all tankbusters approaching then you're just slacking it. (Also I'd like to add that I'm talking specifically about standing around and doing nothing waiting for a heal to matter)

I don't think we should be basing things off what you 'must' do but what you 'can' do. I try to improve my damage as a DPS and using the right mitigation skills at the right time for a tank as well, but there are plenty of people who won't and things will still work out just fine.

As for the games brought up, I understand there's no pure healers in a lot of them. A lot even have builds (In RO I played a semi battle cleric/support so I recall doing damage plenty). There's also MP limitations or simply not having the ability to damage certain creatures. But if you DO have the methods and ample opportunity, why wouldn't you take it? I imagine the answer is 'because I don't want to', which is definitely an answer although a pretty selfish one.

Hell I play a PLD. They're a tank. Do you know how many times I've healed someone else because both healers were dead or simply not paying attention? If I had the mindset that I should be doing my primary role then I should be using that MP to spam flash s'more. Then that person would be dead because while I had the means and the opportunity to assist and greatly help with the completion of the duty, I decided 'nah'.

this kind of thread never end well
each players have their own expectation
for example, doing DF I expect the minimum would be doing their role, i.e. tank holding aggro and def buff, heal keep everyone alive, DPS perform adequate rotation and dmg buff. Above that I consider bonus, especially in DF I am queuing with 3 complete strangers, I have zero idea about their abilities, I would rather be safe than sorry, wiping will waste more time than doing it carefully
but some players expect more like tank stance dancing, heal go full on DPS etc
there aren't any written standard, and it is not so black and white
a player that does not consider good player would not suddenly make it a bad player either
however, I think we would all agree some type of action would definitely consider as bad player,
like intentionally trolling which could be face tanking every AOE and expect heal to take the burden, DPS just spamming 1 single skill, continuously using knock back, always running ahead of tank, or rushing through everything without waiting other players etc
or thing like bad attitude, this would happen to any player, veteran, newbie, well equipped, or someone just began
however to what extend consider to be bad players, everyone have their own indication