I'm not going to address your arguments because you have none to make. Your whole points can be summed up in "this thing I like is fine, this thing I don't care about doesn't matter."Quote:
Originally Posted by Hierro
*That or you're willfully ignorant to the world around you. Either or.
Trying to understand the complaints about DRK
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06-16-2018, 04:39 PMWhyAmIHere
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06-16-2018, 04:50 PMValdegardeHe's been on record saying he does this just because he enjoys Dark Knights struggling, and with his weird memetic tier remarks and egocentric attitude I figured he's a troll for a while now, saved myself some grief by ignoring it.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere
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06-16-2018, 05:29 PMHierroAh, yes. Let's just ignore every time I've provided reason and facts for my arguments.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere
I'm pretty sure there's no record of me saying such a thing, I just checked my post history! But why would I troll players of a job that I as well play, and at that play enthusiastically? Makes no sense. Maybe it's that I have legitimate reasons to believe this job is pretty good and wish others would see that as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valdegarde
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06-16-2018, 06:06 PMWhyAmIHerefaulty reasoning, sure. even an incorrect opinion is still an opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hierro
and, here's the rub. I play DRK because I like it. I enjoy the aesthetic, and I know it's a good class. Does that mean I am blind to its faults? no. it's that because i find such a joy from it that the faults stand out more. It's when you start to analyze how it plays and see how poorly it's designed, only once you get a strong sense of feel for it. Why does it get it's gauge so late? Why does the gauge not augment your core gameplay loop outside of letting you do what you were already doing when you get it? why is the first skill that interacts with it only add time to BW/BP? Why does quietus exist, and why does it even have a DA effect if all that does is increase the damage? Why didn't quietus give back MP at launch if you nerfed DRK's MP generation via BP? Why does bloodspiller have 4 damn potencies? Why is TBN locked behind the lvl70 job quest reward? Why was a key component of a new resource mechanic locked behind the final level job quest when no other job has that limitation? Why does TBN have such a huge impact on the gauge for that gauge to have minor interplay within itself and only slightly towards the rest of your kit? Why give a key element of your gameplay loop as a DRK in TBN at the very end of your leveling, giving you no real time to learn how it operates and what intricacies there are to it? Why does only one of our two combos generate this new resource? Why do we only have two combos to choose from? How can you justify that TBN is just as much a utility to a party when compared to SiO and [PLD's entire kit] when TBN costs a resource to even use where it's peers do not? Why is there such a twisted reliance on the interplay of resources? Why does my "you don't die" skill kill me? Why is my HP gain locked behind a stance? why did it take so long for any sort of changes to be made to the class when looked at for it's peers? (not even gonna touch on how RDM remains unchanged as of 4.0) How did this all not get caught or brought up or addressed or anything when you were designing 4.0 to start with?
I'm sure theres more reasons, and even in this long-winded nonsense I've taken some out due to recent changes. But, i'm sleep addled.
You can have your reasons for liking it, that's fine. I and many others will not agree that "WORLD FIRST" is a valid nor strong one. Strawmanning an argument and resting your whole case on a single encounter when looking at the overall picture loses the forest for the trees. UCoB and UwU might have mechanics and content that favors DRK over WAR/PLD, but that one instance does not nullify every other instance in the slightest. Good players will be good regardless of job, bad players the same. A bad class played well tends to do better than a good class played poorly, within margin of error. -
06-16-2018, 08:16 PMDerio
Come 5.0 they are going to look at all tanks. I really wonder what changes they are going to make. Especially with the role actions under review for 4.4 -4.5
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06-16-2018, 11:16 PMMahrzeThat's because Warrior complaints only need to have more than 2 posts to be addressed. It's a meme at this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hierro
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06-17-2018, 03:56 PMArgyle_Darkheart
If you ask me, Dark Knight has been poorly designed from the start, in spite of its performance.
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06-18-2018, 03:46 AMHierroQuote:
Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere
I had no idea there was such a thing as faulty facts and numbers. It doesn't seem like you enjoy DRK at all. You've put on a convincing performance, I've been fooled! Still, this block of word vomit has been quite the task to dissect. But let's start:
I don't quite understand what you mean "letting us do what we already did." You couldn't BS/Quietus before the gauge, nor could you extend your buffs. If you mean we were already doing damage, then the gauge allows us to do more. By definition, literally, this is what it means to augment a kit, and the gauge performs that exact function. In dungeons, this gauge allows us to continously AoE, indefinitely. We sure as heck couldn't do that before the guage. Also, who cares when we get our guage? Anything before cap lvl is irrelevant to judging a class.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere
Think about our most-used skills. SE, C&S, SS, and BS. All their DA effects solely increase damage, which makes the first question sound oblivious. As I've said before, the prescence of quietus and the interaction it has with our MP and gauge allows us to AoE forever. As for quietus's MP regeneration, why even bring it up now when it hasn't been a relevant issue since patches ago?Quote:
Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere
Sure, we could streamline BS's description to say it's unaffected by tank stance, but not something I'd bring up as a keypoint as to why "DRK has faults!" Why is Inner Release locked behind the lvl 70 job quest? That's the whole point of WAR's identity, especially since 4.2 "Berserk" outright sucks. "No other job," eh? You forgot to look at your fellow tank! It's just our capstone and there's nothing wrong with having it at cap. But either way, leveling doesn't matter because 99% of our time is spent at cap lvl.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere
Because DRK's gameplay is about resource management. It's a wonderful thing to appreciate when you actually understand the class. You can turn your MP into mitigation, which in turn gives you another resource for damage. The way you structure the question seems like you want some sort of intricate interaction with the gauge and the guage itself. Neither PLD nor WAR have this going on. In fact, all PLD gets from its gauage is sheltron and intervention. WAR just does what it's always done, except now you add upheaval and onslaught.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere
How much time do you need to learn a mechanic? Again, you spend far more time at cap than you do leveling. You have all the time in the world to learn how to use your skills. It's the same growing pains other classes go through as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere
Becuase you're encouraged to use your primary combo. WAR essentially uses two combos only, but even then it's just a one button difference. I'm not sure you can call a single button difference an engaging choice. TBN is a utility becuase it saves your healers having to worry too much about you. It's utility because it can be used for fluff damage, tank busters, or raid-wides alike. It isn't tied down to a gauge or stance either, like sheltron or inner beast respectively. It can be used on party members as well. There hasn't been a fight that outright requires raid-wide shielding. In that respect, it's utility enough. I've said it before many times, but to say TBN cost a resource is faulty when you've given damage equal to the cost of a DA. Again, the point of DRK is simply not to overflow. If you find yourself needing TBN and not being able to "becuase it cost a resource," you've managed your resources poorly. That said, TBN is essentially free mitigation on a 15 second timer.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere
That's what resource management is all about. That's what the job is. This is a clear case where if this an issue for you, then it's not so much a fault with the job, but maybe the job isn't for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere
Because you don't communicate with your party.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere
Gee, why is equilibrium heal locked behind a stance? Do you really need a heal from your main damage combo? PLD doens't seem to.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere
Because DRK is fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere
My case is not relying on one encounter/instance/clear (despite it being several), but pointing out DRK holds no one back. -
06-18-2018, 04:51 AMDeceptusThe reason, as stated by the developers, that we didn't get a tank or healer is they were trying to balance them in 4.0 and WAR/DRK/SCH and AST were extremely underwhelming at Stormblood launch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Derio
And at HW launch, Warrior and Bard were really messed up. Bard in Wanderer's Minuet was a DPS loss at HW launch.
So please, forgive me if I don't have much faith in the developers. Their track record isn't that great despite supposedly having learned the lesson "Don't rely on patches to fix things".
https://i.imgur.com/pcVTg70.jpg -
06-18-2018, 02:13 PMWhyAmIHere
Man, I'm (not) going to enjoy this.
Yes, there are such things as faulty facts, though that's entire irrelevant to this discussion. Remember how society used to fully believe the world was flat? Or that the sun orbited the earth? Or that you could turn lead into gold? Or how mercury could grant immortality? Even now the same numbers used to prove the earth to be round are used by flat earthers to prove their own faulty assumptions, because the way they use the numbers is also correct, when used how they want them to be used. I.E.: reality is subjective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hierro
With that said, don't assume to know what I do or do not like. Just because I complain about a thing does not mean I dislike it. Not only did I say so myself, you yourself say as much here: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post4668275
Since I am answering this out of order, I'll do a summary here. "Letting us do what we were already doing" via blood weapon/price, and souleater. You cannot extend BW/BP until 66, much later than anyone else, but BS/Q are not part of a rotation as much as 'rewards' for having X amount of gauge. (Q maybe, with dungeon pulls, usage of AD, and Q to refill your mana. However, I'd argue that's less a rotation, moreso a reaction to "oh I have 50 blood and am out of MP, time to Q.")Quote:
Originally Posted by Hierro
And as far as the bolded here? Anyone who knows anything about good design, or design in general, will see the flaws with this gauge and its implementation.
Our "most used" skills would not in my list include BS, due to BS being obtained at 68, much much later than the rest of those skills you listed. As far as why I bring up the MP generation on quietus now, I want to say you're misreading what I'm saying. I said that the DA effect of Q is worthless, not the MP regeneration. That the MP regen was added was a huge QoL improvement... that shouldn't have even been needed had DRK's MP generation via BP not had been nerfed to start with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hierro
But as to why I am baffled by why Q's DA effect just increased potency? Let's assume you're in dungeon, pulling a mass amount of mobs (i.e. more than just one pack of enemies), and that you're doing a dungeon at level 70. With BP active, you'll drop 2400 MP for TBN, and 9.5 times out of 10, TBN will burst and you'll now have 50(+whatever from BP) blood. You're still fighting a mob of enemies, spamming AD. What do you do? You either extend the duration of BP via delirium, which will net you more MP over time per hit received as well as the MP from delirium itself. Or, you can spend that 50 blood on Q. You'll be back to the original duration of BP, and only get that potentially large chunk of MP per enemy hit from Q.
Now, you can spend the 2400 MP to DA the Q, but you're now sinking 4800 MP to use TBN to proc 50 blood, then spending that 50 blood and 2400 MP to simply hit the enemies attacking you for a stronger Q, while not generating any larger quantity of MP from the Q usage. I cannot think of a single instance where you will regain that 4800 MP through the use of a DA'd Q in a large mob pull. That includes the mass in Skalla with the baby + momma add trash, and the part of Temple of the Fist post first boss where you fight three winged minions and a bear which brings it's own friends. Fractal Continuum (Hard), Hell's Lid, and possibly kugane castle you could generate that large a quantity of MP back with large enough pulls. But, if I wanted to keep up AoE'ing mobs down, I'd rather spend that 2400 MP that would've gone towards DA'ing the Q, to instead use TBN again once it's off cooldown, and use the 50 blood that'd come from that TBN prop to simply use a Q to refill my MP. I argue that you gain more MP overtime from an extended BP, and two TBN's to fuel one delirium and one Q, than you would from using one TBN, and DA onto a Q.
In short, the reward you have for using Q is not worth the effort to even ever consider using it. (But, since I am not posting numbers aside from MP costs, I welcome anyone to prove me wrong. As well, for this case I am not factoring in Soul Survivor, simply due to simplicity.)
BS is clunky, and honestly I'd rather it say that it's unaffected by Grit, or rather "ignores the damage penalty of Grit," just like how Inner Beast does. At least then you wouldn't have 4 potencies to it. Just the base, and the DA potencies. 4 becomes 2. Trimming of the fat. If Stormblood was supposed to "streamline" all the jobs, how did this get passed Quality Control? It's not a hugely pivotal-to-my-entire-argument point to be made, but instead one of several points to my argument. Nice work trying to conflate a point to invalidate my argument while discrediting the rest of what I'm saying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hierro
Ahh, thank you. Inner Release. It's not its own, independent skill like TBN is, but instead an "evolution" of Berserk. You will have berserk long before 70, and all IR does is reconfigure what the effect of the skill does. You will be using berserk before 70, and once you obtain IR you will continue to use it. Now, granted, IR is enough of a change to your kit that requires you to change how you perform your duties as a WAR, but unlike DRK with TBN, it's a change of the key gameplay loop, and not a completely new addition that also requires a change to your core gameplay loop.
My response to the bolded segment will be in the next segment, but let me just state here this part I bolded shows your own ignorance to how these gauges function.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hierro
Oh boy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hierro
I can't speak for BLM, MNK, MCH, BRD, WHM, or SCH, either due to lack of being at max level, or in the case of SCH simply not playing the class. That disclaimer being said:
Yes, you will spend a majority of your time at max level. There isn't an argument there. However, no other class has such little time with these new gauges to learn the intricacies to how they function or how to maximize the usage thereof.
*AST has no gauge to speak of, instead their new thing is just a way to better display what cards are where, either Spread, Royal Roaded, or converted into the Lord/Lady of Crowns.
*NIN obtains the Huton meter as soon as you hit level 45, meaning you have from 45-70 to get accustomed to keeping uptime on that gauge, and obtains Armor Crush at 54, which extends the duration of the huton gauge. Then, they obtain the ninki gauge at 62 (the same level as DRK), which is increased by 6 with every auto attack. Funny, you're already going to be using your huton gauge from 45, so the ninki gauge is an augment to what you were doing already.
*DRG obtains the new BotD gauge at 54, when said skill is unlocked. So, you'll have from 54-70 to get used to using it and maintaining it. Fang and Claw, Wheeling Thrust, and Sonic Spike, are obtained at 56, 58, and 62 respectively. All three of these, aside from a recast of BotD, extend the duration of their gauge. From 54 you will be using this gauge, until you hit cap, and even beyond you will still be using it.
*SAM obtains their Kenki gauge at 52, and receives a trait at 62 which changes how all of your weaponskills interact with this gauge. Whereas before, 2/3 combos only increased your gauge when done from a positional, now at cap all of your weaponskills will be generating this gauge. Hell, even Enpi, SAM's long-range attack, which is obtained at 15, increases your gauge by 10 per use. Meditate, obtained at level 60, is another method to generate this gauge, and finally we get to bring in your three symbols via Hagakure, which converts those symbols into gauge, with varying amounts based on how many of those three symbols you do convert.
*RDM, obtained at 50 like SAM, comes with it's mana gauge pre-ready. Even taking it into Halatali at minimum ilevel you still have that gauge available to you, at level 20. RDM's gauge is used to fuel their enhanced melee combo, which is obtained/available at level 50, as well as Moulinet, which is obtained at level 52. Their gauge is also manipulated by manafication, obtained at level 60, to double whatever your current levels of white/black mana.
*SMN obtains dreadwyrm trance at 58, which itself is a gauge (now). While in dreadwyrm trance, Ruin3 becomes an instant-cast, tri-binds potency and effects are changed, and at level 60, you obtain deathflare. At level 70, your trance is further augmented by the accumulation of dreadwyrm aether, used to summon demi-bahamut. From 58-70, you will be learning how to properly time, align, and utilize your dreadwyrm gauge.
Now for the tanks, and here's the clearest distinction of how flawed DRK's gauge functions. (Also for the sake of disclaimer I do not remember what levels that the gauges are obtained, and my cursory google search was less than helpful.)
*WAR's gauge has two functions, dependent on which stance they are in. Namely, the amount of gauge you have grants a passive boost to your parry or crit rate, stance dependent. The second use of your beast gauge is for certain skills. At level 50 you obtain Infuriate, which is a flat gain of 50 beast gauge. at 35 you have Inner Beast to spend gauge on, so from that I'd say it's safe to assume you obtain the gauge at or around that level. But, from 35-70 you'll have time to learn how to use the gauge, and how your kit revolves around managing your gauge due to the two functions it provides.
*PLD has the least use of their gauge, used solely for two skills: shelltron and Intervention. However, unlike WAR who can only gain gauge through any of their combos or via Infuriate, PLD's oath gauge is generated by: 1) blocks while in shield oath, 2) auto attacks in sword oath, 3) the spell Holy Spirit, obtained at level 64, which will increase your gauge by 20 per cast while in shield oath, and 4) indirectly via Bulwark (obtained at level 46) assuming Shield Oath, by bulwark increasing your block rate by 60%.
*DRK obtains their gauge at 62, along with the skill Delirium. When they obtain it, the only means they have to generate this new gauge are via the Souleater combo *and Salted earth ticks. at 66, after Quietus (64) and before Bloodspiller (68), you obtain a trait that adds blood generation to Blood Weapon/Price. It's when this trait is obtained that you have the most interaction with your gauge, via both passive generation (BW/BP being active) and active generation (souleater combo). I'd also like to assume that Salted earth gains blood generation once blood gauge is obtained at 62, but again, my cursory search through google wasn't fruitful.
Unlike WAR, who at 50 gains the single largest source of gauge generation for free, DRK has to wait until 70, but that source has a condition of "TBN must be broken." A trivial condition, but one nonetheless. As for passive generation, DRK pales in comparison to PLD, who will be generating gauge consistently in either stance without the requirement of a skill being used/active. All of the WAR's weaponskills will generate gauge, with storm's path generating 20 gauge when used to complete a combo instead of the 10 from storm's eye / butcher's block. DRK, only one of their combos will generate gauge, albeit the one combo DRK will be using the most.
WAR has the most interplay / use with their gauge, in that skills that require a certain amount of gauge to even be used, as well as a passive buff from a more filled gauge. DRK only gains access to 2 offensive skills from their gauge, and no passive buff from having any amount of gauge.
*The lack of a non-conditional active method of gauge generation, the inferior, skill-dependent methods of passive skill generation, and just how impactless that gauge is when looked at side-by-side to the other tanks is what leads me to believe the blackblood gauge is inferior overall. PLD has the least use of the three tanks for their gauge, but they will be generating that gauge at all times. WAR has more uses for their gauge, and are rewarded for having a certain amount of it. DRK simply has it, uses it, and repeats.
When that single button provides a damage increase to the rest of any and all damage you do? I'd consider that an "engaging choice," yes. That and that even having the option available to do something other than just press the same three button sequences over and over, to break up the monotony, is always going to be better than not having the option at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hierro
Yes, TBN is utility in the sense that it helps mitigate fluff damage and the like. However, that's true for both WAR and PLD in that all three have resources available to them to mitigate damage and ease the burden on the healers of keeping you alive. But if, as you say, there has yet to be a fight that outright requires this mitigation, a point that I say is flat out false, then why do you feel you can on one hand praise TBN for being such a valuable mitigation skill, and how great of a help it is to your healers, while saying that there's not a fight that requires any kind of shielding.
As well, your argument is flawed in a few points. Shelltron requires gauge to use, this is true. However, using shelltron to proc shield swipes is strictly a DPS gain regardless of circumstances, unlike the amount of damage potency you would get by using BS after breaking TBN. Additionally, you neglected to mention SiO at all in your response, which also when used affects your entire party. So, WAR can SiO for themselves and their party, and use Inner Beast on themselves, and still have access to rampart, vengeance, and raw intuition. All of these skills which help the healers of your team by reducing the damage taken by you and your party... and yet there isn't yet a fight that requires party shielding?
TBN does have a cost associated to it. Specifically, 2400 MP. For you to say that because TBN, when broken, returns 50 blood which can then be used to fuel a BS somehow means you're still not spending 2400 MP to begin with is erroneous at best. It's absolutely nothing like the cost-free ability for a WAR to switch to defiance, which costs nothing to do as it is both an oGCD and has no TP/MP/beast gauge requirements to do so.
DRK has always been about resource management, true. In Heavensward, darkside having a constant drain of MP made you pay attention to how much MP you were using in any encounter. My issue isn't inherently with the fact that DRK has resource management as part of it's gameplay identity, its the sheer levels of convolution to the dual resource management for what amounts to such a minor degree of payoff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hierro
Hallowed requires no communication, whatsoever. Holmgang doesn't kill you, but it does leave you in a very vulnerable, about-to-die-possibly state. A state which you can recover from in any amount. Walking dead absolutely requires you to hit a certain threshold of healing to not kill you outright at the end of it's duration. A warrior can be healed for 80% of their total health from 1HP and be fine. While Holm doesn't inherently require the same level of communication as Walking Dead does, I'll concede that communication with your healer(s) is key. However, barring the obvious that communication can and does break down among people on the internet, especially in the case of tone and intent, failure to communicate having such a huge drawback to its use is in my opinion just another example of poor design choices that've been made.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hierro
I'll just start by addressing the point of PLD first, and most easily. Clemency, and all of PLD's mitigation, including divine veil.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hierro
Now that PLD has been addressed, let's go over the avenues WAR has to self-heal. Equilibrium in tank stance, is a 1200 potency heal. Sure while not in tank stance it's a TP regenerating tool, but you're right in that the parallel to that in DRK's kit is souleater's HP drain effect, which is locked behind tank stance. That aside, DRK's only other option for self healing, I wouldn't really want to count on, is soul survivor, being that it's only available every 120s. WAR, on the other hand, has Storm's Path, which heals regardless of stance, and Inner Beast, which is both a heal and mitigation. Although not ideal, you can also heal for a not-insignificant amount by combining Inner Release and Inner Beast, a large enough chunk of emergency healing as needed that DRK does not have similar levels of access to.
Is that bad, per se? Inherently, no. Do I think DRK should have that level of self-sustain? Maybe, but i'd also argue against trying to bring such a level of homogenization to the tanks.
I wanted to go through your post history and point out all the times you made comments saying "DRK was involved in UCoB, it's fine" and more recently how one of the tanks in the WF race of UwU was a DRK, but as has been said plenty of times before. The matter is not "DRK holds X back from Y" at all. The argument(s) being made is that, what is offered by DRK, is offered by both WAR and PLD, and better; and at the highest tiers of play, job performance is irrespective of player ability. If DRK was truly fine, as you seem to think it is, then would you argue that it has always been fine? Prior to any of the changes received? Especially after the statement made by the developers that a DRK rework would require more time to implement, as that has been an on-going complaint since the release of the current expansion? It's a complicated, convoluted, clusterF of a class that needs some serious addressing towards the issues of. We can banter and debate and argue left and right, sideways and byways, about just what constitutes problem areas for the class. The fact that people can see so many flaws with the class, whereas now PLD is almost perfectly designed in it's kit, and WAR after receiving the buffs that it has makes it operate like a well greased engine, only exacerbates the problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hierro