I quit

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Originally Posted by Falgern

Dark passenger I can't defend, it was a weird choice on their part. Moving MP away from Blood Price and into Syphon Strike made ST better by far. Complaining about not being able to pull half a dungeon and survive doesn't make sense as this was without a doubt not intended. Which is also clearly why they removed bloodbath from Warriors. I think the blood price change is good as it makes MP gain more stable while tanking rather than the more sporadic gain in 3.X. Tanks are currently very balanced, as balanced as they have ever been in fact.

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Except you still have to be in Grit to gain the added MP from Syphon Strike. If you are Off-tanking, you shouldn't be in Grit, but rather be out of Grit and using Blood Weapon with Delirium to up your DPS and handle MP management. Moving the MP from Blood Price and into Syphon Strike doesn't do much for Off-Tanking; as it stands Blood Price isn't really that great of a skill anymore.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

It's not like you have to spam the hate combo in tank stance even in VIT accessories. I never picked up STR accessories in 3.4/3.5 (we quit raiding after like 13 alex clears) so I've just been using the available VIT stuff with weak STR V melds. After a very brief tank stance opener (2x combo) you can use Sword Oath on the primals and keep them just fine even without a ninja. You do have to use some of your hate combo every now and then, but for paladin that basically means looking at the rate your DPS are building enmity and tossing out a Halone combo when you can afford to give up the MP from the lost RA combo (and still make 100% in time for Requiescat).

In a fight where you can use Shirk you don't even have to do all that though. Tank swap->Shirk gives you the lead forever.

Gameplay-wise, I prefer this to "One Powerslash and Done" Gordias tanking since it actually feels like I have to react to the situation a little bit. Why even bother having the hate combos exist if we're not going to use them after the very first part of the fight?

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There's a giant difference between Single Target Enmity and AoE Enmity. In single target, it's currently not an issue, but in AoE it definitely becoming one; if the DPS are doing upwards of 4-5k DPS, they will start soaring in the enmity table; Twelve forbid, if they forget to use their enmity reducer or they split DPS. Also in 3.4/3.5, we had the hybrid Vit+Str damage formula for tanks (since, correct me if I'm wrong, 3.2), which by the way should not have been reverted back to the pure str damage formula, so you shouldn't have been running Str accessories as a tank, raiding or not.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

But your single target MP regen doesn't rely solely on Blood Price. And as a whole, it's much faster to refill your MP now, especially if you're under Grit.

This is misinformation, there is no "delay" resulting in a DPS loss. What can be a DPS loss is spending too much MP on Blackest Night instead of Dark Arts, but that's without considering the times where TBN is used for mitigation, and that BloodSpiller ignore's the damage penalty.

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Eh, there kind of is a delay. Each Bloodspiller is delaying your Syphon Strikes and Soul Eaters by one step, both of which are generating your resources, MP from Syphon Strike and Blood from Soul Eater. Delaying resource generation can potentially result in a DPS loss in the long run, but whether or not this really does result in a DPS loss has to be math-ed out more thoroughly. I definitely don't believe it is as good as Scourge however, mainly due to this bit of math:

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Originally Posted by Zayatani

Bloodspiller is a 380 potency Weapon Skill which increases to 475 while in grit. Dark Arts adds 140 potency, pushing base potency up to 520 potency, which increases to 650 potency while in grit. It costs 50 gauge.

To start off with, the grit bonuses just equals out to ignoring the penalty while in grit. While the move is your highest potency move and it is worth using when available in our rotation. However it’s hardly good compared to a move we lost: Scourge. Since they fill the same kind of function in our rotation, I do think it’s a fair comparison. Every 45 Seconds we will generate enough for 2 Bloodspillers. This means at 4:30 we’d have used 12 Bloodpillers in and 9 Scourges in 3.x. The former is worth 4560 potency, the latter is worth 4500. “But thats more potencies for the Bloodspillers!” I hear someone say. You also lose an entire Souleater combo, which is worth 750 potency, meaning the standing of the moves is actually 3710 vs 4500. Values with slashing up is 4191 vs 4590. The average Bloodspiller in this scenario is worth a total of 399 potency against the Scourges 510. It needs at least 30 extra base potency in order to break even with Scourge.

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Now they stated that they could have made errors, but their math looks pretty sound to me.

Also, we lost the awesome Scourge animation and lightsaber-y sound effects; you can't say that doesn't suck.

Yes they made changes to the jobs and yes some are worst than others but overall most people are happy with the class changes. I am a main healer and I wasn't happy with the changes at first but after learning to change the way I play a little and seeing what they did with the changes I gotta say that it feels better than it did before. Is it harder yes but that just means I gotta up my game and I look forward to the challenge.

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Originally Posted by Joladis

Yes they made changes to the jobs and yes some are worst than others but overall most people are happy with the class changes. I am a main healer and I wasn't happy with the changes at first but after learning to change the way I play a little and seeing what they did with the changes I gotta say that it feels better than it did before. Is it harder yes but that just means I gotta up my game and I look forward to the challenge.

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Or we can give them feedback like they want so they can improve the game further. Some of us are dealing with the changes but are still sending in the feed back to get some changes. The Japanese Tank Forums for example, has a large thread asking for the Vit+Str damage formula to return. The fact that the tank population is shrinking is not a good sign. If we don't give any feedback, how will the developers know what to fix?

I am pretty sure I have adjusted to the new Dark Knight, but that doesn't mean I am happy with the way things are so it is only naturally I am going to send in feedback based on my experiences.

I'm not crying; I'm giving feedback.

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Originally Posted by Joladis

Yes they made changes to the jobs and yes some are worst than others but overall most people are happy with the class changes.

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[citation needed]

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

So what I'm seeing is healers adjusting to the healer changes (mostly) dps adjusting to dps changes (again, mostly) and tanks not wanting to adjust at all. "I cant keep hate in DPS stance spamming dps moves with the occasional emnity combo, tanking sucks now"

Shouldnt it be more optomizing hate/dps combo rotations and such? Aren't some of you supposed to be the elite tanks that show everyone how its done? yet now, instead of proving you are the best tanks, its back to strength gear so you can dps instead of learning how to deal with the changes. This is why we cant have nice things.

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This is foolish -- players from nearly every class except for a select few which were very meticulously overhauled (BRD, PLD) have been making posts asking about questionable changes to their job. In their effort to reduce the complexity of many classes they seem to have inadvertently removed or changed aspects of class' playstyles, to the extent that many people feel that the 4.0 classes aren't even the same as their 3.0 counterparts.

SMN seems to be a great example of this, beyond the numerical nerfs and changes, the way the Aetherflow interacts with the Dreadwyrm trance changed so much that the class is far far more punishing to mistakes. And players have a much more limited set of skills available to them when they are, say, between pulls in a 4-man dungeon.

At a certain point it becomes questionable to expect the player-base to simply 'adjust' to any and every change made to their class.

It's within your rights to quit the game, a role or a job. I don't even mind if you post that you are doing so and continue to post after that. Also, by all means please feel free to voice your issues with things, a problem ignored is a problem that goes unfixed.

The issue I, and probably many others, have is the manner in which you have been going about doing these things. You have been consistently overly negative and belligerent in your posts and responses to others. Reacting to problems in such a way obfuscates and in many ways belittles the message you are trying to get across by putting people off; and when you make it so that people wish to ignore you, it can be very difficult to get them to listen to your points.

It's obvious many of us tanks feel that there are issues that need to be addressed, we may have disagreements on what and to what extent but there are many things where we are of a like mind .

Throwing tantrums on a forum solves nothing. A unified and coherent voice of the people is much more effective than the din of a bickering squabble.

Respond to suggestions and grievances you agree with and explain why without devolving into reactionary negativity. Make clear and concise propositions for how something could be fixed or made better, not just retort with statements like "omg this sux wtf fix now".

Overall approach these and similar problems with a cool head and not an excess of fluster and bluster.

@Touchandfeel, yeah, throwing tantrums, being belligerant, obfuscating your message with your shouting and complaining and overall negativity on online forums of communication doesn't solve the tanking issue, but it will solve US economic, military, and healthcare problems and make America great again. Amiright?

Har Har har....

Lol. Sorry for the tangent... couldn't help myself...

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Originally Posted by Yahallo

Eh, there kind of is a delay. Each Bloodspiller is delaying your Syphon Strikes and Soul Eaters by one step, both of which are generating your resources, MP from Syphon Strike and Blood from Soul Eater. Delaying resource generation can potentially result in a DPS loss in the long run, but whether or not this really does result in a DPS loss has to be math-ed out more thoroughly.

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Syphon Strike gives you half the amount you need for Dark Arts, so people add 70 potency has opportunity cost. So, a full powered SE combo deals 150+390+70+420 = 1030 potency over 3 GCD...so 343 pot/GCD with 4800 MP spent.

Basic Bloodspiller is 380 on its own...so it's better on average than you double Dark Artsed SE combo.

With Grit, SS gives you one Dark Arts, so 140 opportunity potency, increasing the total potency at 150+390+140+420 = 1100 so 336 pot/GCD...again, BloodSpiller tops at 380 even before considering the impact of Grit.

BloodSpiller is definitely a DPS gain.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Syphon Strike gives you half the amount you need for Dark Arts, so people add 70 potency has opportunity cost. So, a full powered SE combo deals 150+390+70+420 = 1030 potency over 3 GCD...so 343 pot/GCD with 4800 MP spent.

Basic Bloodspiller is 380 on its own...so it's better on average than you double Dark Artsed SE combo.

With Grit, SS gives you one Dark Arts, so 140 opportunity potency, increasing the total potency at 150+390+140+420 = 1100 so 336 pot/GCD...again, BloodSpiller tops at 380 even before considering the impact of Grit.

BloodSpiller is definitely a DPS gain.

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I will give you that, but it still doesn't seem to be as good as Scourge was.

I am super tired of people who are unhappy with a part of the game and take the passive aggressive approach and, for example, '...post on the forums and hope SE sees it and does something'.......or 'plays another class'. You people are NOT helping solve anything.

If you want to fix something, launch a trouble ticket.......get it in the system.

Trouble tickets get LOGGED and it's REAL data that shows up in their systems and numbers - it goes to managers and can be presented at meetings. THAT's where change will stem. Things like posting displeasure on a forum is NOT going to show up in any company's meeting and have any tangible punch to it. You leaving to play another class isn't go to show up in their meeting topics either.

Don't be passive aggressive and expect changes to 'magically appear' - be part of the solution and initiate change where you can actually make a difference.

LOG A TICKET.