We're all DDs now >.>

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Originally Posted by Aramina

Yes, people see it as an issue but that really doesn't change reality. I would *love* to have enough healing to do that I wouldn't have time to touch my DPS spells in dungeons, but that's not the case so holding my breath and stamping my feet yelling "this is not what I signed up to do!" accomplishes nothing.

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It is on these forums. SE does read them and people are complaining so much over healers not dpsing or having to dps as a healer or just being dismissive of the issue, or saying 'that's just the reality of it. It could be worse'. This is exactly the place to complain about the core issues.

I dps in dungeons. Its boring not to. However the conversation is 'You healers better stop being lazy and dps' and 'no I don't wanna' rather than 'the design behind healing in this game is broken and these changes only emphases the issue and do nothing to solve it'. Technically stamping your feet on this forum is exactly where you are likely to get something accomplished if enough people draw attention to it. Hell we are getting a Male bunny suit because people on the forums made a big deal over it.

I am being rather loud about this because it is something that bothered me. If they cant figure this out its just going to keep messing with healer gameplay and honestly at this point I don't have faith they realise the issue. However people are obsessed with demanding healers who don't want to dps must dps and those who are completely against it aren't going to start any no matter how much browbeating they get. Demanding they do isn't going to accomplish anything either.

Maybe we should be trying to change the dialog to discussing what is wrong with the healing model and arguing less over things no one is going to be able to change anyway. That might actually accomplish something.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

So name calling and ad-hominem attacks are in your tool box.

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Honestly, to me it seems like you're either clueless of how healing works in this game or trolling. This is not an attack on your person, it's an estimation of the things you post here. It's because the way you describe healer gameplay (and use of potions in another thread) is so out of touch with how they actually work in this game. When I checked your profile from the Lodestone earlier today for some reason I read it as you would have beaten Savage, and if you had, you should have known that white you write is not actually true, so that's why I leaned on the troll option. It was my mistake and I apologise. On the other hand, you seem to be using early Heavensward gear and have no raiding experience, so now it seems you're just very inexperienced and maybe because of that you don't understand how healers are played optimally in this game - and how they work in synergy with tanks. Starting from regens being your most powerful and optimal heals and that you should use them whenever possible. And that using them (as long as you don't use them before pull or spam Divine Seal Medica II for nothing) causes absolutely no harm for a tank who knows the basics of their role.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

It is on these forums. SE does read them and people are complaining so much over healers not dpsing or having to dps as a healer or just being dismissive of the issue, or saying 'that's just the reality of it. It could be worse'. This is exactly the place to complain about the core issues.

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Do you think think they are unaware of the (lack of) healing requirements? I see no issue with us attempting to bring our concerns to light, but I am absolutely positive they are already aware of healing's shortcomings. That's not to say we shouldn't try, but I would be honestly shocked if it changed.

Its actually quite simple. If you join a pug through the DF queue and the healer is keeping people alive but does not want to dps then do not stress about it. You do not have a right to tell the other person how to play as long as we are finishing the dungeon or raid. If you want more control over the output and skill of an individual then use the party finder or queue with friends. I am hoping the raids/dungeons in 4.0 onward makes better use of the healing strength each healer brings and actually gives them more reasons to heal.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

It is on these forums. SE does read them and people are complaining so much over healers not dpsing or having to dps as a healer or just being dismissive of the issue, or saying 'that's just the reality of it. It could be worse'. This is exactly the place to complain about the core issues.

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This is a catch 22. SE wants to cater to the casual market, and the problem is that the more focus they put on healing, the harder they have to make healing, so they focus on casuals, make healing easy, and that is why we have to DPS.

What they have done is Stormblood is make it so that those who struggled with cleric stance dancing now have more accessibility towards the DPS half of their toolkit, making the role overall easier to play.

I agree with changing the dialogue, I have tried in so many threads to start a discussion on what could be changed in the healing model, only to be shut down by people saying "I just won't DPS, I play how I want"

Have so much to say in regards to this topic but its just not worth it. The only thing I feel like saying is healers have a severe lack of a buffing/utility toolkit to mess around with in their off time and I just don't see that changing anyways.

Really off tanks just need more mechanics to play with so they don't spend 90% of the fight a glorified dps. Their toolkit is built for mitigation, not just DPS. Leviathen was one of the rare fights in this game where both tanks could entertain their toolkits to the extreme. Why bosses don't have multiple tanking targets at any given time similar to this is beyond me.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

It looks like he intentionally played it in an embarrassing way that he would have more down time to derp around. Someone who is actually playing healer will avoid all overhealing and enmity generation possible, which is something that you can't do if your healing comes entirely from using Medica, Medica II, Regen on targets. I'm sure the tank had to work overtime to carry this "healer"

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Okay. Now I am convinced you simply don't know healing very well. I have had tanks who were in 235 gear and didn't use a single CD yet I still had downtime, albeit nowhere near my norm. Likewise, I have ran Expert hundreds of times by now and never once have I had to fully heal. In fact, my general average is 60-80% Cleric uptime.

Swiftcast -> Holy -> Cleric Stance -> Divine Seal -> Regen -> Aero III -> Aero II -> Aero -> Fluid Aura -> Presence of Mind -> Stone III

That one HoT will do all the healing I need for most pulls on Solm Al hard. On the few occasions I do get shoddy tanks. I'll drop Cleric after Stone III spam and toss out Tetra.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

It looks like he intentionally played it in an embarrassing way that he would have more down time to derp around. Someone who is actually playing healer will avoid all overhealing and enmity generation possible, which is something that you can't do if your healing comes entirely from using Medica, Medica II, Regen on targets. I'm sure the tank had to work overtime to carry this "healer"

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Most healers don't play in the way you describe here. Also, let's be honest, no tank worth his salt would have any problem dealing with this play-style of healing. Taika just demonstrated how a GOOD healer operates.

There is a problem with your video though, Taika. You played the healing aspect of WHM well. Your tank was decently geared for that content and used his cooldowns. Your dps players dodged AOE's and gathered for gather mechanics. In short, their good play also minimized the need for you to heal. That being said, even in horrible parties I can still find the time to toss out DoTs and the occasional AOE nuke.

In a way this whole discussion is kind of moot. In a couple weeks SB is coming out and with it healer DPS stance dancing will be a thing of the past. With MND-based nukes and no need to manage a stance dance, there will be ZERO excuse for a healer to not toss out dots and nukes inbetween their cures.

Most of my dungeon runs consist on tanks using 100% time the tank stance, and healers only healing. I've seen only few times other yelling or questioning this, but in general I think is accepted an no one will say anything. Just they prefer go Reddit or forums to complain about it, making it a thing bigger than reality is. They (people who want play tank/healer only) have the same right to play like any other player. You need calm down a bit about this theme.

Healer DPS is a option, and main tank perfect DPS too, then they can play safe if they want. No one should yell at then for that.

When we talk about dungeons :

I think most of the guys who cry about missing dps are the ones with low to middle-dps for their class (Tank or dps), registered 12 minutes before they need to go eat and dying a few times of derpness, also blaming the just healing healer(there was no puddle, I was out sure af, muuh lag). When you actually play dps and you know halfway what to do, you don't even have the time to type shit about missing dps. For me it also goes to the point of ignoring the tanks sometimes (keep up Greased lightning > tank pull)

Maybe the people should rather see it as a chance to maximize their performance by improving rotations to compensate some missing dmg of the healing healer or the co-dps.

Also I forcast : With the new players and all the hype / returners confronted with a new system people hopefully be glad to even complete a dungeon without too many ragequits. You won't have the time to complain much with SB start, because you will more than enough when you hit 70 after 2 days since headstart and reading the pf with capslocked "NO BONUS MUUH EXP FAIL KICK" by guys who don't even fit their own requirements.