Something need to be done in how tanks acquiring Provoke

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

Are you saying Cure is important to be efficient as a PLD?

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Cross class cure on PLD has its use to trigger Divine Veil with low mp usage in case the healers are dumb.. But no... It's far from being efficient..

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Originally Posted by Nihility

Dunno about you but I've had enough occasions in leveling dungeons paired with healers that can't get a grasp on "don't stand in red" that riot blade + cure is what got the group through to a victory
That I consider it a cross-class slot well filled

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Ah, never had healers that bad. Only ever used when solo if chocobo was slacking.

As for comment about Active Help, don't think it would help much. Half the questions I see in Novice Network were answered by AH, but people turn it off after first message and never see any future ones.

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Originally Posted by Nihility

The game gives you all the tools you need to figure out how to play it and even has an entire community of players willing to help if there are questions.

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So good game design for you would be:
No markers whatsoever, no names for NPCs (You can talk to everyone and remember the names - they will introduce themselves. Once.). No manual provided for controls and movement sits on 1234 for directions, rather than WASD. Tooltips only state:"Does stuff.", you can sift through the combat log (Which, naturally, isn't in the game but a file in a folder) to see what it does after. No map either, you can draw that yourself. Quests only tell you who to talk to, not where s/he is.

All tools provided! No clarity or intuitive design whatsoever, though.

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Originally Posted by Nihility

Dunno about you but I've had enough occasions in leveling dungeons paired with healers that can't get a grasp on "don't stand in red" that riot blade + cure is what got the group through to a victory
That I consider it a cross-class slot well filled

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I did a solo Cutter's Cry Chimera on PLD once while leveling (rest of the group left, never refilled) by means of Cure between Chimera casts and a fair bit of Riot Blade, but even then I can't say I don't find it lacking. Were it merely to scale with physical weapon damage instead (or if the physical/magical damage distinction was removed, and caster strength just nerfed a bit if we really find caster auto-attacks that fearsome and overpowered), that'd be a huge boon, and maybe make it worth taking as a efficient alternative to Clemency when you absolutely cannot attack and the ally doesn't have enough health for Stoneskin to pay off.

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Originally Posted by Nihility

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I fully agree with all of that, but the thing is that the majority of new players won't even remember what they read on that little window which pops at level 10 or won't even read at all. There is also the thing that once, as a new player, you look at cross-class skills, for the majority of them it's not really game-breaking, most of them are completely useless (savage blade, skull sunder, impulse drive, cure, raise, and so on), and only a few of them bring most of the time very basic DPS boosts (B4B, IR, Raging Strikes, Hawks Eye, Invigorate, Mercy Stroke), or defensive abilities to get more survivability (Second Wind, Keen Flurry, Foresight, Bloodbath, Convo, Awareness, Mercy Stroke). Provoke is the ONLY exception to this, being a MANDATORY tanking skill which has NO REASON not to be included into EVERY tanking classes' BASE toolkit. It's just like if DRK didn't have Grit and had to cross-class Shield Oath instead. It's the EXACT same thing. It's just plain ridiculous and new players shouldn't be expected to guess by themselves that such an important tool for their role is missing and needs to be obtained from another class to even be viable at end-game.

Tho, as I said before, they could just improve the way that the game introduces you to cross-class abilities. I think that just putting this shitty pop-up at level 10 isn't enough because when you're only level 10, firstly you still don't have access to changing classes (you can only do that once you reach a certain point in the story which is closer to level 14-15 than 10), and secondly most people don't even want to try other classes, they want to see more about their current class, they want to level up and progress the story. So they think "I'll do that later", but most of the time they'll forget about it or don't even think that cross-class abilities are THAT important until they run into someone who tells them. If they improved that, by atleast putting a message on the level 30 job quest saying something like "Warning, if you don't have Provoke from the Gladiator class you'll have a hard time with other people !", THEN, we, as veteran end-game players, would have all the rights to EXPECT these new players to have read this message and get the Provoke.

I thought changing classes was unlocked by lvl 10 class quest.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

I thought changing classes was unlocked by lvl 10 class quest.

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Isn't it unlocked by the story quest which lets you go visit the other capital cities ? If it's not, it doesn't change anything to what I've said tho since MRD and GLD have different starting cities anyway so you can't look up for GLD skills until that point in the story. Limsa only has MRD, Arcanist and ROG.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

So good game design for you would be:
No markers whatsoever, no names for NPCs (You can talk to everyone and remember the names - they will introduce themselves. Once.). No manual provided for controls and movement sits on 1234 for directions, rather than WASD. Tooltips only state:"Does stuff.", you can sift through the combat log (Which, naturally, isn't in the game but a file in a folder) to see what it does after. No map either, you can draw that yourself. Quests only tell you who to talk to, not where s/he is.

All tools provided! No clarity or intuitive design whatsoever, though.

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so your saying you like to over-react and jump to ridiculous extremes?
I haven't said any of those things. The active help is always there to go back to as a reference
The ability's list is always there as a reference and the active help tells you how to use it
It goes far enough to tell you how to use everything, why does it need to hold your hand and pick your skills for you?
Provoke isn't even necessary for anything outside of the content meant for skilled players, Skilled players don't need hand holding. They'll read their combat logs and converse with their groups and figure out what is wrong and how to fix it. These aren't even resources outside of the game, it is all there to see and use

The majority of what you said is just ridiculous nonsense no one has ever mentioned

If your the type that immediately cancels active help and gets defensive when others try to offer help, It doesn't matter what the game does. You still won't figure it out and resort to complaining and spouting nonsense instead of valid arguments

So it comes to my attention that people pointed out for those tanks-without-provoke to be blunt ignorant by not reading the tooltip/trying to find what crossclass skills that can be available for a job..
In regards to that, provoke isn't even displayed in WAR/DRK's skill windows if one hasn't leveled gladiator to lv 22 and acquired it, simple solution on this case would be making all cross class skill available being displayed in the additional skill windows but not selectable until one reach the requirement level in that specific class.. So why isn't this a thing? It makes the information displayed better Just as what Freyyy suggested in the previous page.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

They also could improve the cross-class skills interface by already displaying all the skills you can get from all the classes without having to actually level them first, with a special highlight on what is heavily recommended for each job. There is plenty of solutions, not that hard to implement.

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Note however the unacquired class skills are greyed out if player has yet to meet the level requirement, but this isn't the case in crossclass skill windows..

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

Isn't it unlocked by the story quest which lets you go visit the other capital cities ? If it's not, it doesn't change anything to what I've said tho since MRD and GLD have different starting cities anyway so you can't look up for GLD skills until that point in the story. Limsa only has MRD, Arcanist and ROG.

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It is unlocked at level 10 but players can only change to a class which reside in their default hometown hence the 3 cities voyage in MSQ

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Originally Posted by lvlagmarink

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^ This ! This is a solution I already gave in a previous post, it wouldn't be hard to implement at all and it wouldn't change anything to the actual process of unlocking cross-class skills. It would just improve the display of it, that way a new player would be able to look at all the available cross-class skills for its job and see what they should aim for to optimize their job. I don't understand why it isn't the case already.