Powerleveling Revisited

Viion, don't you think it's a little sad that the state of the game being easy or not has a lot to do with the class balance (or: how absolutely unenjoyable half the classes are but how super freaking awesome some are)?

When 1.20 rolls around it'll be interesting to see how the community sees the level of difficulty the game has. Maybe if the classes were actually fun and required the tactics S-E insisted they would, powerleveling wouldn't be so necessary, as well.

To save some headache when you don't want a PL... Upon starting a pt and acquiring members you as a the party leader can simply say I don't want a PL for this group, if you have a problem say so now before we go out. It alleviates the headache associated with what Isaac had going for him there. I see two sides to the whole Power Leveling bit, sure it can breed bad players. But even if a bad player leveled through normal means, they'd still be bad. If you're new and learning the game, power leveling can destroy a bit of the journey[ and accomplishment that some get when they hit 50. But if you're a level 50 already who just wants to level a job for certain abilities and never play it again after that, for that I'd say PL is great for. "Cause seriously, I'm a melee player and I hate mages(They bore me.), yet my own protect, cure and the like would save my ass.

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Originally Posted by Mirh

Are you fucking kidding me? Like, really. is this a fucking joke post?

This is a loud and beaming example of why this is unacceptable: Why do people like this get catered to religiously when the supposedly non-existent minority that conflicts with them would pay more money out of their own pocket for a certain experience than this guy's mother can afford for him?

Christ.

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Because 100 people paying 12 dollars > 10 people paying 20

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Originally Posted by Mirh

It's like, people are afraid. Powerleveling would always exist, but people are like, life-dependent on it being the norm.

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I think anyone "life-dependent" on it is more just afraid of having to wait for other people to find new ways to level quickly (since those people don't strike me as the innovative type) if powerleveling gets patched again. Really, they're just as bad as the people who are deathly allergic to even the thought of powerleveling, just in an "equal but opposite" way.

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Originally Posted by Radiator

Thought you did a nice job of stating your opinion. I personally like the way things are but can also understand your frustration. I'm guessing the masses also are fine with the current set-up. As party leader you could alweys tell people your guidelines up front, that might help.

I think the lack of lower level gear in wards is due in part to two additonal things:

1. Most people dont buy it because its not great for turning into Materia - maybe they could give a small chance for tier IV materia from 30s gear? This would increase demand.
2. Most people don't craft it. A crafter can't make very much gil on low level equipment. Also the majority of crafters are either high level (at this point), NPCing, or have friends that can make. I think once more people are playing this would not be an issue.

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Originally Posted by Reokudo

To save some headache when you don't want a PL... Upon starting a pt and acquiring members you as a the party leader can simply say I don't want a PL for this group, if you have a problem say so now before we go out. It alleviates the headache associated with what Isaac had going for him there. I see two sides to the whole Power Leveling bit, sure it can breed bad players. But even if a bad player leveled through normal means, they'd still be bad. If you're new and learning the game, power leveling can destroy a bit of the journey[ and accomplishment that some get when they hit 50. But if you're a level 50 already who just wants to level a job for certain abilities and never play it again after that, for that I'd say PL is great for. "Cause seriously, I'm a melee player and I hate mages(They bore me.), yet my own protect, cure and the like would save my ass.

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This preemptive measure looks good. I like it a lot. Could work in most, if not all, parties. At least it should make it less likely for any asshole to start trying to hijack your party in the middle of the current EXP party session.

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Originally Posted by Teia

I think anyone "life-dependent" on it is more just afraid of having to wait for other people to find new ways to level quickly (since those people don't strike me as the innovative type) if powerleveling gets patched again. Really, they're just as bad as the people who are deathly allergic to even the thought of powerleveling, just in an "equal but opposite" way.

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I don't recall anyone who has said powerleveling should absolutely, positively, not exist. The idea is that one group wants powerleveling and couldn't care possibly less if the content exists and the rest of the community is happy, and the other group wants multiple ways to be viable at honestly no cost to anyone.

Considering how many people are happily powerleveling, I think the concern is when you're running into problems avoiding it.

As far as being lonely at the top goes, I can't imagine a more wonderful opportunity to make friends in the game to play with later than to help those lower level players find those new ways to level. It's not always about reaching the cap. The concept of being a veteran in an MMO seems lost these days.

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Originally Posted by Lavani

Because 100 people paying 12 dollars > 10 people paying 20

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Once the game starts costing money I think the amount of people wanting a mediocre experience in content will drop. I REALLY hate to say it, but it's obvious most people who have played FFXIV during this time were here for the graphics and free play, not out of loyalty or interest. There are lots of fun MMOs out there, and if you're playing an MMO for a story/content, you don't skip it. It's just not logical.

I'm not going to argue with your point - it is valid - but you have to understand how incredibly stubborn and devoted the secondary group is. The former group may bring in the cash, but the latter is where you will be gauranteed to keep recieving that cash. The trick isn't to absolutely, under any circumstance, please the first group only, but to trick you guys into throwing money at the game to keep funds up (Through patches that promise a better game - like how WoW does, and any of us who like WoW know how potent this is) while the more reliable, stubborn group plants down and stays under even the most harsh of circumstances - that is, once you prove, as a company, you care about us, too.

Of course I don't agree to those tactics, I'd rather us all be happy. Just don't forget, the finicky, attention-deficit players are much easier to manipulate and will always ebb and flow in and out of a game's community. S-E will never make this game better than FFXI, so they only have to please so many people. "So many people" stuck through with FFXI for years before WOTG and Abyssea, and FFXI will be seen as a successful MMO in the books of gaming history when it finally, fully, ends.

Hmm, which would explain why Yoshida mainly focuses on appealing to the non-loyal-FFXI potentials. How interesting.

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Originally Posted by Mirh

Considering how many people are happily powerleveling, I think the concern is when you're running into problems avoiding it.

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Pretty much what I was getting at was the subject of people who stick to one ideal to the point where they run into problems because of it regardless of what that ideal is. My post was largely just equating people who feel they're being pressured to quit because they don't want to be in a PL party (the OP said they felt "strongly influenced to leave [the] game") to players who feel pretty much the opposite way, i.e. players who would feel strongly influenced to leave if it were patched again (not necessarily removed, mind you, but significantly affected) as a way of making the point that inflexibility in general is a bad thing.

Aside from that, I fully agree that helping lower-level and/or less experienced players try new things and learn the game beyond an explanationless "go here and kill this" (such as what things to look for when considering where to go and what to kill, to use a simple example) is a good networking opportunity that too many people view as unimportant. At the very least, it's the "give someone a fish vs teach them to fish" situation.

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Originally Posted by Teia

Pretty much what I was getting at was the subject of people who stick to one ideal to the point where they run into problems because of it regardless of what that ideal is. My post was largely just equating people who feel they're being pressured to quit because they don't want to be in a PL party (the OP said they felt "strongly influenced to leave [the] game") to players who feel pretty much the opposite way, i.e. players who would feel strongly influenced to leave if it were patched again (not necessarily removed, mind you, but significantly affected) as a way of making the point that inflexibility in general is a bad thing.

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I understand that you're taking a neutral stance, but if it's considered inflexible to want to work for my level up... Well, if it were true, I will have lost faith in the MMO player community.

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Originally Posted by Mirh

Once the game starts costing money I think the amount of people wanting a mediocre experience in content will drop. I REALLY hate to say it, but it's obvious most people who have played FFXIV during this time were here for the graphics and free play, not out of loyalty or interest. There are lots of fun MMOs out there, and if you're playing an MMO for a story/content, you don't skip it. It's just not logical.

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Yes I agree that you don't "skip" a story if that's what you're after. When I was leveling my first 50, I did it entirely in "legit" groups. I had zero PL parties and I still "skiped" the content. At 50 I was able to do all of the story quests and switch to lower level classes, (that got powerleveld at times) and turn those in for the exp rewards. Regardless of having the option to powerlevel or not people can still enjoy content and story. It's illogical to remove a game style or leveling process because someone else doesn't agree with it.

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Originally Posted by Mirh

I'm not going to argue with your point - it is valid - but you have to understand how incredibly stubborn and devoted the secondary group is. The former group may bring in the cash, but the latter is where you will be gauranteed to keep recieving that cash. The trick isn't to absolutely, under any circumstance, please the first group only, but to trick you guys into throwing money at the game to keep funds up (Through patches that promise a better game - like how WoW does, and any of us who like WoW know how potent this is) while the more reliable, stubborn group plants down and stays under even the most harsh of circumstances - that is, once you prove, as a company, you care about us, too.

Hmm, which would explain why Yoshida mainly focuses on appealing to the non-loyal-FFXI potentials. How interesting.

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Since you brought the subject of WoW. Yes Blizzard seems to be catering to less "hardcore" players recently. It is extremely easy to level to cap, run a few dungeons and get full epic gear. That is one of the reasons they lost so many people during WotLK and Cataclysm. Why would they continue to do this if they are losing people? Because the people that enjoy the quicker access to content (via fast leveling) and perhaps even the ease of access to epic gear (although not top tier) outweigh "the incredibly stubborn and devoted secondary group."

Both Blizzard and SE are major companies in a very competitive industry. They are going to make decisions based on profit margins a lot. Also SE is trying to erase the taint that the original ffxiv launch brought the company, and probably the best way to do so is to make the game succeed by doing similar things that wow did (in terms of time spent leveling vs time spent on end game content) to gain a larger number of subscribers. The largest part of MMOs is the endgame content, that's why new patches add END GAME CONTENT.

More people playing tells reviewers that the game is more successful and if they enjoy the game as well the game will receive even better reviews and bring in even more people to play and pay. They probably also see this "incredibly stubborn and devoted secondary group" and know they will stick with the game through "the good and bad". You said "trick you guys into throwing money at the game to keep funds up" well guess what, that's easier done to the "loyal" people who have been here for forever and a day because they want the game to "succeed". The game will succeed when more people are playing the game, not just the devoted few.

Is there a way to do a forum poll? Because I'd wager that 80%+ are just fine the way things are currently. Not that the 20% doesn't count, the system could be tweaked. I'm also 99% sure that 100% of the people that don't use the forums don't care about this at all. People want to be able to help their friends , as mentioned earlier, especially on PS3 launch.