Cure is broken. Requiring THM or CNJ leveled to 20 for general survivability is a broken mechanic that is setting a dangerous precedent for the whole game's future.[/B]
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Thank you for making soloing challenging. When the servers are fixed, I am sure this will be a thoroughly enjoyable game.
Unfortunately, you need to patch Cure. The game itself expects everyone to level THM or CNJ to 20+ for an efficient Cure. This type of gameplay is pathetic, masochistic, outrageous, and classist.
I have no desire to play THM, nor CNJ, nor pugilist. I am a fully dedicated Archer.
One of XI's worst qualities was that you had to level like 1 or 2 jobs for your mainjob, to be efficient. Leveling those jobs took days. Yes the leveling curve is ridiculously easy in XIV, but no, I still don't want anything to do with THM, CNJ, or pugilist. I don't enjoy other classes than Archer and I want nothing to do with them.
"But the armory system caters to leveling multiple classes." Yes, it does, and it rightfully should. Unfortunately, when you have skills like Cure, that make such a dramatic impact to where the game starts demanding you level this class just for general survivability -- you know it needs to be patched or something needs to be fixed.
1.2 is the perfect time to fix this horrible XI mechanic. I was dragged through all CoP missions by my friends despite not having the right jobs leveled. XIV needs to move away from this terrible terrible terrible terrible design for future content.
I have failed two guildleves that would've required me to have Cure to do them.
You shouldn't need either mage class leveled to experience general gameplay.
1.2 Needs to fix Sentinel, Tanking, and XI Class-ism.
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10-25-2011, 08:28 PMShinMetsu
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10-25-2011, 08:37 PMRinsui
The "you can be whatever you want on a single character by mixing abilities from all classes" is an interesting mechanic at first glance, and a major hurdle for new players at second. Personally, I leveled Gladiator to 36 just for Sentinel. Because that ability is good enough to be considered a requirement for whatever you play (Ifrit tactics!).
Did I like to level Gladiator? No. I just wanted to be a frickin' THM all along. But to be efficient at what I am doing and get invited to NM/Raid parties, I also had to level Conjurer. And Gladiator. And Archer for Stride.
Some people may like it; I, however, did not. And I am not alone.
The subjob system from FFXI was better. At least you didn't have to level all classes for cherry-picking the best abilities. Which tend to come at either 36 or 40. -
10-25-2011, 08:44 PMAdvancedWind
Hardly a problem from either the community or of game balance. This is a MMO, and thus there will always be the 'best' way to do something, and most high end groups WILL always work out to be as close as possible to this "best" way to handle every fight. If it's not a skill requirment, it's gear requirement, class requirement, trait requirement, food requirement, etc, etc. I'd go as far as saying that it's literally impossible to avoid this kind of thing in an MMO environment, because one player "gimped" in a fight DOES screw the whole group regardless of how prepared they are.
I know I'm currently very gimped (no materia gear, no decent cross classing other than mage skills) due to being busy in real life, therefore I don't even ask to join Ifrit groups. Not because people would simply "refuse me", but because I know I would just be dead weight.
That said, your specific example (having X cross class skill) should become far less common once jobs kick in. But I'm sure we will still have all those "you don't have X materia", "you don't have X sword", "you don't have X job" sittuations no matter what the devs do. Unless they just make content so simple that you can just have whatever and beat it. That would suck, sorry.
In any case, If the people you know will ONLY let you even try something with the exactly "perfect" build no matter what, then all you have to do is make new friends or work to get that build, sorry. -
10-25-2011, 08:49 PMPreypacerExactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennestia
Depending on how much "freedom" players are given with the add-on system for XIV, I fully expect the same thing to happen here. Certain add-ons - even those that absolutely are not necessary - will be deemed "mandatory" to have or you'll be told (ironically) to "learn how to play"... which of course, really translates into "We need you to use those add-ons because we suck and can't complete anything without them".
I always find it funny how in MMORPGs (XI, WoW, you name it), the people who are the most dependent on guides/add-ons/cookie-cutter build/etc. to beat content are the self-described "hardcores" who deem themselves "elite players". They look down their nose derisively at those who prefer not to use them and to instead, you know... play the game without training wheels and helpers.
I'm sure (unfortunately) that same "We need add-ons and walk-throughs to win" mentality is going to pervade XIV as well.
Whatever changes SE makes to the game, no matter how they try to "balance things out", the same exact thing is going to happen. The so-called "elite" are going to quickly find out which approach/build guarantees the best, most predictable outcome, create a template/walkthrough of it and then declare that all others must follow that same setup or they don't know how to play and don't get to do the content. Because, again, that's the only way they know how to beat it.
The sad thing is, many others will - without even second-guessing it or bothering to think of alternatives - will resign themselves to those guides being "the one right way to do it", and won't even try to complete the content using any other setup. Sadder still is some of them won't try for fear of being mocked and derided by other players for "not doing it right".
And please, nobody bother coming back with the whole "it's all about efficiency"... that's a player mentality. The idea of content is to experience and complete it. There is no "law" stating "it must be done in the most efficient manner possible, or you're doing it wrong". Again, that's just players who require those guides/cookie-cutter builds in order to succeed at the game twisting their own inadequacy into a mandate. They need everyone else to play a certain way in order for them to succeed.
A friend of mine created a static for Zilart, CoP and Aht Urghan. For all three, his setup was - according to the "elite" of FFXI - "the wrong setup". He was told, constantly, "you're doing it wrong", "that's not the right build", "you're going to fail without "x-jobs" for "y-fight". He was mocked by his own "elite" LS-mates who called him and his group {Too Weak}.
Lo and behold, he and his "too weak" group finished Zilart, CoP and Aht Urghan - every one straight through to the final fight.
What did an "elite" player say when he informed them of his group's accomplishments? "So what? You got lucky. I would never have let you do that in my group. You gotta learn to play the right way, man. Those guides and walkthroughs exist for a reason". My friend's response: "The point is, you and everyone else told me we'd fail, we'd never finish it, it wouldn't work, we were doing it wrong and all this. We beat it anyway and didn't need any of that. Yet you're still telling me that following those guides is mandatory to complete the content. Who needs to learn how to play again?" -
10-25-2011, 08:55 PMWynnGreat post. I could not have possibly said this better myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Preypacer
Remember when addons and voice chat didn't exist? I don't recall people having trouble beating game content then.
Hive mind creates bizarre logic bubbles in game communities. It is like RDM in XI. God forbid a RDM melees in party and yet they can solo crap that groups have trouble taking down.
What can you do though? There is no cure for stupidity. -
10-25-2011, 08:56 PMJinko
Being forced to download an addon is a little bit (reads a lot) different than spending hours leveling a class you have no interest in.
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10-25-2011, 09:07 PMPreypacerIt's still a player mentality, not one mandated by the game design.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinko
SE could make changes to Sentinel or some other requirement, and it would simply make way for the same people who deemed Sentinel to be "a must" to declare something else as such.
There's nothing SE can do to change the way people think. And, in MMORPGs unfortunately, the people who seem to be the "most influential" are always thinking in terms of having one way to do everything, deeming that one way to be the right way. And everyone else is expected to follow suit.
The example I gave in my last post - of my friend completing all those missions in XI - was an example of how he didn't require the jobs/builds that the "elite" said he did. He and his group just needed to see what jobs they had, what setups they could use and what strategies they could form to make it work. And they made it work... through CoP when it was still at its hardest, no less.
Requiring certain jobs/classes to be a certain level for certain skills, requiring certain add-ons, requiring certain gear, and so on... those are all product of players who are trying to make the game as predictable and color-by-numbers as possible.
SE can't change how people approach their game, though I know people love to blame SE (or any developer) for "making it necessary". No they don't. The players make it necessary. It's simply easier to blame someone/something else than it is to accept responsibility for their own decisions or inadequacies.
Only the players can change that behavior.
You can do as my friend did in my example, give all those "elites" and their rules the finger, form your own group and develop strategies to take on the content as you prefer, without requiring all that. -
10-25-2011, 09:10 PMPreypacerNor complacency.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wynn
Well-put, by the way :).
As an addendum to the account of my friend back in XI, he was eventually kicked out of that LS for trying to suggest other ways to beat Zilart/CoP/Aht Urghan. Some other players wanted to complete it, and were being given the typical "you have to follow "x" guide and "y" party build.." routine.
My friend offered examples of how his group completed it as alternate suggestions and was promptly told - in Linkshell, not even in /tell - to "stop trying to gimp the linkshell with his fail strats". He said "They're not fail. We completed all of it with them. They're options that might be useful to them". He was kicked from the ls a little bit later.
Another member PM'd him telling him they were all ripping him to pieces for being a crap player and doing it wrong, telling the people he was giving advice to to not listen to him, to do it the "right way", etc.
Funnier still is that one person he was trying to help ended up dropping that LS pearl, PM'd my friend asking to join his and said "what a bunch of douchebags" lol.
Nice huh? -
10-25-2011, 09:29 PMJinkoAlthough I do agree with much of what you say, I do think SE are to blame here mainly because the servers just can't cope with this fight, which leads to people using sentinel because you can't judge if you're guna get hit by one of ifrits abilities due to the animation lag.Quote:
Originally Posted by Preypacer
There will always be douchy people who refuse to listen to other peoples suggestions as you have said and those people who refuse the most are always the loudest in doing so, when you are in a LS like that its time to move on. -
10-25-2011, 09:32 PMPreypacerThen that's an issue with the server tech or some other aspect, unrelated to the fight itself, that should be cleared up once the server issues are sorted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinko
I'm also sure - and you can quote me on this - once the lag issues are resolved and it's no longer a problem, people will continue to insist that such skills are "mandatory" anyway. It happens with every other fight in every other MMO, why would it be any different in this case.
I'm sure server lag isn't an intended strategy of Ifrit's :-p.