Learning how to properly play AST

I see where you're coming from, but in the end that is exactly why trying to spreadsheet HPS doesn't work. At best we can prove something isn't like it is by stating an unlikely but preferable situation for job A, and showing that job B doesn't even perform that bad under those conditions. There are so many variables to work around all we can do is dumb it down to the point it can be discussed. And in the end, jobs performing differently in different scenarios should be a given. All we really need to do is tell SE when one job is always outclassing another, be it due to them being blatantly overpowered or none of the preferable scenarios ever occuring for job B, while they are for job A (which is exactly what is happening with the whole SCH vs AST debate now).

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Originally Posted by AzureFlare

Don't know how you got to 1450 total potency for Aero 3, since Aero 3 is 50 + 40*(24/3) = 370. 5 * aero 3 would be 1850. I went over your calculations and since the rest of it is correct, the total potency would be 12230, making it 122300 damage or 1019.17 dps for WHM.

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That was a calculation mistake. I divided 24 by 3 and got 6 instead of 8 (It was like 6 a.m. here when I posted it), so I didn’t take into consideration 2 ticks. I’ll update my post and give you credit :)

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Originally Posted by AzureFlare

P.S. Would love to know your det and MND being at ilvl 205 with eso and my Malefic 2 hits maybe 1800-1840 on average.

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After reading your reply, I realized I was taking into consideration how much damage I was doing inside a raid/primal battle, and since my group has a BRD I have Foe Requiem (sometimes with Battle Voice). I do about the same damage as you in a dummy/regular monster. Since this information didn’t bias the calculation (I used the same damage : potency ratio for both WHM/AST) and using a round number is easier, I’ll just add the Foe Requiem information. Thanks for bringing it to my attention though :)

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Originally Posted by NamoNanamo

You have one site that record all the upload from the parser. I don't know If I could give you the name. But I agree that doesn't show you enough information.

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I have seen that website, but like you said, there is not much information about AST. I never uplodaded anything there because I play on a PS4. Most of the people I know also play on a PS4, so we’re parsed by other people and the numbers are very different for each encounter even when there are two people parsing at the same time. In my Thordan EX clear, I did over 200 DPS and the SCH who was playing for my group did over 400. He DPSed more than I did, because I usually solo heal the most I can to allow my off-healer to DPS whenever they feel like it. I also try to draw the most cards possible and I notice their effects. When I draw specific card combos the DPS in phase 1 goes up by 2 or 3% (we usually make the transition at 69-70%, but this one time I ‘grounded’ my group from doing a retarded face pull while I had an Expanded Balance and refused to draw any cards, so we made the split at 72%); also, when I see the parsing after each pull I notice the numbers changing for the people I use cards on. For this reason, I don’t think I pulled a bad number myself and I have reasons to believe that I contributed a lot to overall DPS. My raid leader jokes and says I’m not allowed to play anything but AST, because she would miss my cards (she’s a BLM and my Arrows really help her). Other than me, I don’t know many ASTs that are in progression groups and they usually don’t do any DPS at all and rely only on their cards. This is why I don’t take the information on that website as an indicator of what’s actually going on in the game. Too much information is left out.

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Originally Posted by NamoNanamo

There is a lot of "discrimination" about Astrologian and misconception.

But Healer got strong relationship with his party. So I think we need to have a "systemic" view. You aren't only dps, you aren't only heal. And your co-healer(and other mate) is gonna determinate how you will play.
So I think it would be better if we took some real example like a1/a2/a3/a4 Thordan etc. And explain why Ast/whm/sch is better and how you play for ?

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I agree with you that there is a lot of misconception about the Astrologian and that the context isn’t taken into consideration. Like AzureFlare said, what I tried to do is create a perfect full DPS situation to show that even in this case the difference between AST and WHM is not that high. I didn’t compare it to SCH for two reasons: 1) its DPS rotation is far more complex and includes juggling with 5-6 DoTs, Aetherflow, Broil, Bane and Energy Drains; and 2) I agree with the community in the fact that SCHs are better at DPSing than any other healer in the game and that, if you’re organizing your group around Healer DPS, then you need one in there and the question is about who’s going to fill the other spot. An actual context requires a lot of information that would make the calculation impossible in the forum, but I totally agree with you when you say that the group formation is a relevant information and this is why I said that the numbers were biased from the beginning: such a “lab” situation doesn’t exist in an actual raid fight.

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Originally Posted by TatoRazzino

After reading your reply, I realized I was taking into consideration how much damage I was doing inside a raid/primal battle, and since my group has a BRD I have Foe Requiem (sometimes with Battle Voice). I do about the same damage as you in a dummy/regular monster. Since this information didn’t bias the calculation (I used the same damage : potency ratio for both WHM/AST) and using a round number is easier, I’ll just add the Foe Requiem information. Thanks for bringing it to my attention though :)

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And here I thought I was missing a secret to making my stars hit more. Well, got baited into that one, but at least I don't feel like a dumb now. Hope I didn't sound cynical, was legitimately curious whether I was missing out.

You are right though. A lot of the issues of WHM vs AST are not number issues, unlike what some keep shouting. Plus it was a funny eye-opener once I saw how powerful Spear and Ewer are looking at the mana debate. The real, social issue is getting people to stop thinking WHM is the de facto healer while AST is some clumsy healer that plays with cards and just a bad copy. A good AST can and will perform better than an average WHM.

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Originally Posted by AzureFlare

And here I thought I was missing a secret to making my stars hit more. Well, got baited into that one, but at least I don't feel like a dumb now. Hope I didn't sound cynical, was legitimately curious whether I was missing out.

You are right though. A lot of the issues of WHM vs AST are not number issues, unlike what some keep shouting. Plus it was a funny eye-opener once I saw how powerful Spear and Ewer are looking at the mana debate. The real, social issue is getting people to stop thinking WHM is the de facto healer while AST is some clumsy healer that plays with cards and just a bad copy. A good AST can and will perform better than an average WHM.

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Sorry for baiting you into that one! Since I hit 60, I don't hit normal enemies or dummies with AST. It was an honest mistake haha

About the numbers, I've always said that they were hardly a problem. Even before the changes in AST, the differences in actual numbers were low for most of the spells. Adding 20 potency to Benefic, 30 potency to Benefic II and 10 potency to Helios didn't change that much; there was even an HPS nerf for Diurnal Aspected Helios, which lost 40 overall combined potency. Did anyone get hurt by that in an actual encounter? I don't think so, because the fact that we had an increase of 60 in the burst part of the spell is more important than the fact that in overall healing the spell lost 40 potency. I don't know what's happening in this expansion, but people are obsessed with numbers. This is what motivated me in writing that long post. I don't care much about DPS output, to be honest, because I don't like DPSing as a healer and this is one of the things that made me switch to main healing (I started the game as SCH), instead of off-healing. But that doesn't mean I'm not capable of doing it if it's necessary.

Anyway, I agree with people in here (I think it's Vlady who said it) when they say that WHM has to be stronger than AST in some healing/DPS aspects. If ASTs could pull as much DPS as a WHM or SCH, and if they could heal the same, then AST would become mandatory and the game would be broken. The same is valid for the RNG aspect of the cards: adding a Balance is like having an extra Blood for Blood active, but with no downside; could you imagine how ridiculous it would be for an AST to be able to, let's say, throw an Extended Balance on a MNK every minute? That would mean having a Blood for Blood damage increase 100% of any encounter. Now imagine a BLM/SMN in A2S with that. It would defeat the purpose of having multiple jobs in the game.

Having said that, I think the main difference about WHM and AST is in healing style. There are lots of things I can do while playing AST that I can't when I play WHM (and vice-versa). I'll give an example from A2S (which may help some new players):

In the transition from wave 6 (remaining spider from wave 5, Jagd Doll, Boomtype and the Hardhelm/mind, idk which one) into wave 7 (four Jagd Dolls), my group's tanks move to the middle to pick them up (2 each) and then they move near the entrance (south) so they can stay positioned for phase 8. For phase 6, we tank the mobs in the north which means that the whole group is basically crossing the room. The Jagd Dolls throw some AoEs, which mean that from time to time people have to move to dodge them. What I do in that part is: I use Synastry on our WAR (which is being healed by the SCH) and focus healing our DRK; that gives me a healing buff and allows me to help the SCH with his job, letting him save Aetherflow stacks (he may even use them all in the previous phase and have the time to wait for Aetherflow to be out of cooldown). At the same time, I use Lightspeed, which allows me to cast single target heals while moving and also helps me conserve MP, so I can spam some Benefic IIs. This allows the group to reposition safely and gives my SCH time to position his fairy without letting the WAR die. While all that shit is going on, I can buff my party members with cards; all of them are useful in that phase: Balances and Arrows help my group burn all the enemies faster, TP and MP are always being drained in A2S, Boles are welcome due to high damage and everyone is rotating cooldowns which means that the Spear is valuable. This is something I wouldn't be able to do as a WHM; if I changed jobs, I would have to adjust a lot of things to this strategy which is actually very smooth for AST. Anyway, that's just one example of how useful an AST can be when compared to the other healers. Maybe if we all posted more strategies like this, we could change how people view the AST in raid encounters.

So I'm messing around with this job and some questions (only at 30).

1. Should I just be using Benefic 2 over Benefic 1 or will that kill my MP?

2. In terms of my DPS abilities, which ones should I stick to? Stella seems worthless.

3. I don't have them yet, but when should I use an Aspected Benefic/Helios over normal ones? Is that a pre-pull sort of thing?

4. What cards should I give to what classes and/or which ones should I just discard (once I get the ability to do so)?

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Originally Posted by RaizeGraymalkin

So I'm messing around with this job and some questions (only at 30).

1. Should I just be using Benefic 2 over Benefic 1 or will that kill my MP?

2. In terms of my DPS abilities, which ones should I stick to? Stella seems worthless.

3. I don't have them yet, but when should I use an Aspected Benefic/Helios over normal ones? Is that a pre-pull sort of thing?

4. What cards should I give to what classes and/or which ones should I just discard (once I get the ability to do so)?

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1. The standard answer is no because the MP efficiency of Benefic 1 is FAR better than Benefic 2, but TBH it's very situational. Often Diurnal Aspected Benefic and the occasional Essential Dignity are enough to keep a tank afloat while you DPS or do mechanics and the only time you need to heal a tank up is in large amounts, and if you're MP's high enough, it's kind of wasteful to use Benefic 1 time wise. In big pulls often Benefic 2 is what you need to do. Benefic 2 is more time efficient, and if you can get away with it MP wise, you actually should be using it (if you're DPSing).

It depends on the content and your MP needs. It's not so black in white. I used to use Cure 1 and Physick more in ARR than I do now in HW, as now there are so many emergency heals for any healer and tank damage is lower than ever.

2. Combust 2 > Combust > Aero > Malefic 2 spam (Malefic if no Malefic 2). Stella is for the Heavy, something you occasionally (but TBH rarely) need to inflict on enemies, typically in raid.

3. In Diurnal, you want nearly 100% uptime of AB. AH is also your go-to AoE heal, you typically only Helios if you NEED to Helios. In Nocturnal, you will use AB as your Benefic II replacement more or less, and you should roughly use it as you would use Benefic II.

4. It's a page or so back, someone did a good overview.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

3. In Diurnal, you want nearly 100% uptime of AB. AH is also your go-to AoE heal, you typically only Helios if you NEED to Helios. In Nocturnal, you will use AB as your Benefic II replacement more or less, and you should roughly use it as you would use Benefic II.

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No no no no no no no. D:
In Diurnal, you treat AH like WHM treat Medica II, use it once, then use Helios until it's regen wears off (or it's lower then 3 sec).
In Nocturnal, you treat AB like SCH treats Aldo, use it to cap at around 75% or higher and/or when the target (usually a Tank) needs a shield, use Benefic II for anything lower or ED when at 50% or lower.
The Aspected spells will eat up your MP way too much if you spam them, especially if you're DPSing on top of it. >A>

I agree. Noct AB is just to stabilize. You see a dps drop in health quickly- AB to shield, then heal. The instant cast is really the feature of the spell - not the healing. It consumes chunks of mana and the shield isn\\'t THAT great when big guys can easily hit for far more than it shields.

In Diurnal, definitely treat AH like Medica II. Never clip your regens. You\\'ll lose throughput. However, don\\'t underestimate the HoT it can apply. If AoE damage is far and few between, let the regen tick without using Helios. I\\'m more surprised I don\\'t need to use Helios that often - granted, the other healers I\\'m paired with freak about hp not being topped off and they\\'ll spend the mana AoE healing until they\\'re topped.

I can get 4k hots on tank xD as AST

Aspect benefic + aspect helios + collective unconcious + bole(if draw) + time dialation and watch the hots keep him alive xD for 30+ secs lmao

But also if tank is taking light damage just use benefic and if u get a benefic 2 proc change to cleric stance and do dots/malefic spam and switch cleric off to use benefic 2 proc if tank dips to low, and if u like to play dangerous u can use essential dignity if tank dips to 20-30% or lower

I have 0 mp issues and im extreamly aggressive as AST u will always see me in cleric stance and use luminferious aether when ur at 25-30% mp and blow celestrial opposion to extend it, (works with sprint, cards, benefic 2 proc, collective unconcious, luminferious aether, aspect benefic, aspect helios)