The Greystone Bastard (naming lore query)

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Originally Posted by Alisa180

Stuff about Haurchefant's relevance in the story.

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As much as I hate it, but you are probably right. Still, I would have been satisfied in visiting him from time to time and make my own stories about him. Just because the game leads us elsewhere doesn't mean your character has to be there 24/7. In fact, you are reminded several times by Minfilia that you should take a break from your work. You can just imagine going to visit him or something like that. So, it's no hindrance for me.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

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It's much the same for me... I have my favorites dying on me all the time, be it in books, films, games... and it always gets better sometime, but this particular death just sticks.
And yes, the 'afterlife' is quite bleak here... however, maybe there is still part we don't know and some small part goes somewhere else. Wasn't there some kind of afterlife related to Nald'thal? Let's just... put our hopes in that >.<

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Originally Posted by Ayuhra

We'll bring him back to life at the end of the expansion. By that point Emmanellain will have Camp Dragonhead and Artoirel will be Count and Haurchefant will have nowhere to go but with us on mad adventures as a Scion and thus will he stay relevant for the rest of the game.

...What?

Let me dream my impossible dreams....

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It's a beautiful dream I entertained myself. I approve.

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Originally Posted by myahele

i don't think Artoirel is scheming or planning to betray the WoL, afterall, people thought Haurchefant (especially the Fortemps)was scheming too due to how we all pictured Ishgard then.

I am curious though, is Artoirel's slight change in personality due to localization? Does he act the same in Japanese/ EU?

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It could be pure character development or localization, I'd like to see the translations of the other versions as well!
The reason why he put me off slightly was his behavior and the reaction he got out of people around him.
http://i.imgur.com/bIfod1D.png
Emmanellain before he leaves the room, clearly angry as hell after he quoted his late brother (or perhaps there's another reason).
http://i.imgur.com/2IvXrFR.png
And this is Artoriel's face as he leaves the room to go after Emm, could just be me but he looks smug after getting our support.
http://i.imgur.com/BOxCA35.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Uxoql17.png
Edmont's sudden look at Artoriel is interesting to say the least.

This is pure speculation on my part, but could he be a closeted traditionalist? We know that he has spent a lot of time with house Dzemael and Durendaire and that his late mother had more influence over him than say Emmanellain. I mean while Emmanellain was genuinely upset over the death of his half brother while Artoriel admitted to be ashamed that he didn't feel as sad as he should be. Emmanellain's sudden fit of anger could've been due to his brother's sudden change of conviction. Because how can someone who can't feel sad for his brother's death suddenly uphold his words and actions? I mean no matter what option you pick he will use Haurchefant's quote to stand by his position as count. He could either be genuine and this would just be another suspicion theory, or he could be playing us like a fiddle.

Or maybe all these theories are just wrong and we find out that young Emmanellain is the one spreading all the rumors and his fit of anger was his reaction to finding out that he instead of getting to keep his old way of life just made his stick in the mud brother count. lol

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Originally Posted by Belhi

Technically, as a primal, he wouldn't be Haurchefant at all so I'm not sure the WoL would feel that conflicted to be honest. We already know that primals aren't the original, just a manifestation of the summoners beliefs and desires wearing a form similar to the original.

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Well i don't know about you but if i had to raise a weapon against someone or something with the face of a close friend or family, i'd have a preeetty hard time. We may know it's not the real thing, but raising a sword against a familiar face would still awake a feeling of striking down on the real thing. And if Ixion-Haurchefant's vessel is his corpse.. well.. You'd basically be cutting into your old pal's body, possessed or nay - and that would hurt the feefees, or at least mine.


But yeah no again I don't think it'll happen, patch 3.1 was a homage to our late friend, what they're giving us right now is closure and opening character development for his brothers. Meanwhile on social media people will keep on messing around with summoning theories and Horsechefant. Which personally i find interesting, having a primal savage Horsechefant battle with him flipping his fabulous mane and screaming "Smile for me!!" in a pained screech or something.. or an Ascian possessing his body? Holy shit man that would be intense and horribly sad.

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Originally Posted by Emmanellain

Well i don't know about you but if i had to raise a weapon against someone or something with the face of a close friend or family, i'd have a preeetty hard time. We may know it's not the real thing, but raising a sword against a familiar face would still awake a feeling of striking down on the real thing. And if Ixion-Haurchefant's vessel is his corpse.. well.. You'd basically be cutting into your old pal's body, possessed or nay - and that would hurt the feefees, or at least mine.

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The rage and disgust alone at a perversion made real of someone I cared about that I knew was dead would be all I'd need to destroy it.

Summoning a primal of someone I cared for would only make my desire to destroy it all the more personal.

It's highly more likely that Shiva will be re-summoned by the displaced heretics than Haurchefant becoming one. Better chance of an Ascien possessing or turning him into a Zombie

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Originally Posted by Alleo

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What do you mean by 'Our characters can't meet him again after death?' If you do the Alchemist questline, it provides solid proof that a person's spirit persists after death.

Haurchefant's death had no real plot impact, true. But it had a hella of a lot of emotional impact. Let's see if I can explain myself here...

A theme that's started cropping up in Heavensward is 'Who, or what, is the Warrior of Light, exactly?' We had the DRK questline with all its minscrew, showing the WoL that they aren't as okay with them being used by others as it seems. We had Illberd's comment during 'Keeping the Flame Alive':

Illberd: If you think you fight for justice, lass, you'd best wake up. The truth is, you fight for whoever bloody well tells you to. Can you not see you're being used!? By the Scions, the city-states, even the Crystal Braves. They none of 'em care a whit what you want ─ only what you can do for them.

And we had a this significant bit of character development from Alphinaud in the lead-up to fighting Ravanna:

ESTINIEN
How lightly you propose the destruction of this god, Master Alphinaud─a being of whom we know naught. Has it occurred to you that you may be sending the Warrior of Light to her death?
ALPHINAUD
No, I─ ...You have the right of it, Estinien. 'Twould seem it is I who am guilty of presuming too much.
Pray forgive me, Forename.

ALPHINAUD
Estinien's words stung me more than I care to admit─'twould seem I have begun to take your victories for granted. Do be cautious, my friend...

And of course, we had the Archbishop's line at the very end. The most recent development in this theme is the appearance of the 'Warriors of Darkness', which you just *know* is going to lead to some uncomfortable question and revelations.

Haurchefant's death was significant for the WoL, because it made the conflict with the Archbishop personal for them in a way nothing else before had ever been. Even if you don't pick a certain dialogue option with Aymeric, you get this line in the journal after Edmont gives you the shield:

In a touching gesture, Lord Edmont bequeaths to you the shield that his son used to save your life. Noble Haurchefant...a man of no less courage than you, and no less honor, but one upon whom Hydaelyn never smiled. Inwardly, you reaffirm your vow to exact vengeance upon Ser Zephirin.

At this point in the story, the WoL is no longer pursuing goals in HW just because they're being told to. They're doing it because they want to make the bastards who killed their friend paid. Just look at their expression when the Archbishop shows up after defeating Bismarck. It could be argued the defeat of the Archbishop was as much at the WoL's own intiative, as it was at others, which in terms of the described theme is pretty significant.

In the longer run, the legacy Haurchefant left behind seems to be one of the underlying theme of 3.x. And I don't think this will just affect the surviving Fortempts brothers and the storyline in Ishgard.

Here's my prediction: The question that will inevitably come up as a result of the Warrior of Darkness drama and whatever the hell Elidibus is teasing us about is 'Is the WoL *really* a hero? Have they truly been doing the right thing?' There will be a *severe* moment of doubt, about the WoL and everything they've fought for. I cannot say what else will happen, but I think Haurchefant's memory will play a role. He believed, to the very end, that we were a hero. That we were 'hope incarnate'. And that memory, combined with whatever else happens, is going to help the WoL and the Scions flip the metaphorical bird at whatever 'awful truth' the Ascians will inevitably drop on us.

If it happens, its honestly going to be the kind of scene that works *way, way* better if the character in question is dead rather then alive. Just because a character is no longer among the living, doesn't mean they don't stop serving the story.

Phew, I don't think I explained it well-enough, and will probably come back to edit this later, but here you go. XD

Like I said before, I think you're reading a bit too much into this. A little more than a bit, but not quite a lot.

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Originally Posted by Emmanellain

http://i.imgur.com/bIfod1D.png
Emmanellain before he leaves the room, clearly angry as hell after he quoted his late brother (or perhaps there's another reason).

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What's important here is that beforehand he wasn't saying anything and minimizing his presence. He was lost in thought, and Artoriel putting him on the spot broke him out of it. I'd wager he's just trying to come to terms with everything that's happened (you'll remember he wasn't at the mission briefing for the raid to free the Vault from the True Brothers' control), as what we've seen of Emannellain suggests he's not very good at taking change and responsibility (see: skips class, drinks regularly, flirts with Lady Lainette instead of getting to the mission, gets captured by the Vundu due to carelessness, cowers behind us during the escape, etc).

There is likely some resentment towards Artoriel in there, but just why I can't guess right now. I don't think it has anything to do with Haurchefant, though.

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Originally Posted by Emmanellain

http://i.imgur.com/2IvXrFR.png
And this is Artoriel's face as he leaves the room to go after Emm, could just be me but he looks smug after getting our support.

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The expression is a bit off, but I'd bet that's due to the camera angle and lighting. Personally, I think Artoriel was just smiling because he's looking forward to what the future holds now that he knows he's not alone. Even knowing betrayal and despair, I want to believe in people instead of being suspicious of everything everyone says and does.

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Originally Posted by Emmanellain

http://i.imgur.com/BOxCA35.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Uxoql17.png
Edmont's sudden look at Artoriel is interesting to say the least.

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Edmont's expression didn't change, and looking at someone when they talk isn't strange at all.

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Originally Posted by Emmanellain

This is pure speculation on my part, but could he be a closeted traditionalist? We know that he has spent a lot of time with house Dzemael and Durendaire and that his late mother had more influence over him than say Emmanellain. I mean while Emmanellain was genuinely upset over the death of his half brother while Artoriel admitted to be ashamed that he didn't feel as sad as he should be. Emmanellain's sudden fit of anger could've been due to his brother's sudden change of conviction. Because how can someone who can't feel sad for his brother's death suddenly uphold his words and actions? I mean no matter what option you pick he will use Haurchefant's quote to stand by his position as count. He could either be genuine and this would just be another suspicion theory, or he could be playing us like a fiddle.

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I think it's just character development on Artoriel's part. Realizing that, even though Haurchefant was his illegitimate half-brother, he was still more a knight than anyone else in House Fortemps, and now that he acknowledges and accepts that he wants to do right by people the same way his half-brother did.

There could be foul play somewhere in there, but there are endless possibilities, and I don't want to be suspicious of everything everyone says and does. (Or: everyone is possessed by an Ascian / in league with the Ascians.)

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Originally Posted by Alisa180

Here's my prediction: The question that will inevitably come up as a result of the Warrior of Darkness drama and whatever the hell Elidibus is teasing us about is 'Is the WoL *really* a hero? Have they truly been doing the right thing?' There will be a *severe* moment of doubt, about the WoL and everything they've fought for. I cannot say what else will happen, but I think Haurchefant's memory will play a role. He believed, to the very end, that we were a hero. That we were 'hope incarnate'. And that memory, combined with whatever else happens, is going to help the WoL and the Scions flip the metaphorical bird at whatever 'awful truth' the Ascians will inevitably drop on us.

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That does seem to be something they're building up to, and I hope to God it's done as well as it was in Fire Emblem: Awakening...

First: Thanks Alisa180 for your answer. I will post mine in a spoiler because it so big and kinda off topic. Please note that this is only my opinion and I know that I am probably in the minority with that. Also I am sorry for my bad English X_X Its not my mother tongue so hopefully it wont sound so bad and I have a hard time to express myself.

Yes that one quest was a quite big hint that the soul is still there after death but the problem is, that this is quite the contrary to what the main quest told us about it. I don't have any dialog I can post and I only now it about the German version but there is one point in the story where the Scion discuss the way the afterlife works or better the way that the Ascians escape their fate.

In this they showed that the soul becomes part of the great lifestream and maybe one day parts of it will go back and be reborn as another person. Later also we have the situation with Y`shtola who was in the lifestream for a short time but she said that she had a hard time to keep herself together.

These two things show me that this version of the afterlife does not include any kind of heaven. And that its quite likely that anyone that dies loose their own self and be united with the stream only to maybe one day be reborn again as a completely new person.

The alchemy quest line was quite surprising for me because it showed something different from that and I am not sure if this was done to show us that maybe there is more to it than the Scions know or if it was some kind of mistake from SE.

If the version of the Scions is true than its even more harder for me because in other games where they keep it ambitious (which I like the most ;)) you can make up your own version but in this you are straight told what is going on after death.

Still even if in some kind of strange way they have some kind of afterlife it would still mean that we as the players wont truly see him again which is still kinda horrible for me..

Now onto the rest of your post :)

For me a death done only for emotional impact feels always cheap in a way. If the character dies so you can defeat an evil or if their death is the only way to let you life (an in this situation we could and should have defended ourselves..) or if their death truly changed the story than I can at least accept it. But death just so that we can have a personal reason to go after someone or that they can show how bad war is or to just to have us feel some emotional pain leaves a really bad taste..If he would have taken an enemy with him or if he like Moen, gave is aether so that we could defeat a Ascian for good than it would have been not that harsh. (But still very sad T_T) But killing someone of to create a feeling of vengeance and hate for another character is really the easiest way to do that and with that feels kinda cheap :(.

[And yes I know that a lot of people die without reason in the real life, but I don't want those deaths in a video game or book. I am mean how bad would it be if for example Aymeric dies because he slipped on the stairs or Thordan died of a heart attack thanks to his old age xD]

Why do we truly need such a personal reason to go against Thordan? Wouldn't the threat that he and his knights pose as primals not be enough? Just the thought that if they will win that they would slaughter countless innocent dragons and people alike should have been enough to get such a feeling.

We never needed that much of a reason before and just because your character may feel a little bit annoyed to do everything other ask for them does not mean that we wont go against primals and other big threats to defend innocent people. Its the ones that use us for things that they easily could do themselves or that risk their lives for something small with the knowledge that we will save them, that annoys the WoL. :)

I can understand that his death was the beginning of change in the characters of his brothers and that we one day might remember him and that it will help us. But for me it would have been better if he had been quite injured which would have him helpless for the whole 3.x story which would have been a chance for his brothers to shine. Maybe they could have injured him permanently so that they would have a reason to not include him that much anymore but he would have still been there so that we could visit him. This could have given him some new character development too. :) This is probably harder to write in the story than a character death but it would have given the devs the chance to include him in other things in the future outside from all the fighting like events.

Maybe I am just so sour because we already lost some dear people and I fear we will loose even more. I am just not a fan of death especially if there are my favorites and maybe I am also still a little salty that we at the same time did not loose a single Scion after all that happened at the end of 2.55 but that we had to loose Haurchefant and Ysayle instead :(. Why always the characters with the most development? T_T

So yes deep inside I would have no problem if he is somehow able to be alive again. Maybe after a really long hard quest line or maybe he was chosen by the Mother Crystal to be her version of the Ascian. (Yes I know it quite impossible but one can dream right? xD)

Sorry again for this big off topic post ^^;

Now it seems that either I am really blind or that the including of this bastard surname is a English thing only? I have read his minion description again and could not find any mention of this surname. I sadly don't remember if the name is part of the German description of this picture but I at least cant remember something like that.

I am now kinda curious what his Japanese description is? Since the English one seems to be coming from GoT?

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Sorry again for this big off topic post ^^;

Now it seems that either I am really blind or that the including of this bastard surname is a English thing only? I have read his minion description again and could not find any mention of this surname. I sadly don't remember if the name is part of the German description of this picture but I at least cant remember something like that.

I am now kinda curious what his Japanese description is? Since the English one seems to be coming from GoT?

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I would imagine "Greystone" is in all versions because it's also the name on his memorial stone. It's in Eorzean script and hard to read because it's low res but it's there.

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Originally Posted by Ayuhra

I would imagine "Greystone" is in all versions because it's also the name on his memorial stone. It's in Eorzean script and hard to read because it's low res but it's there.

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Thx for the info Ayuhra :) tried to read the stone once but gave up after some time :) Really hard to read xD