Healers need an overhaul

imo it shouldn't even be a discussion of same or LOWER DPS it should be a question of how much more DPS for peak or mediocre play should be added?

like i said about 300-400 DPS for optimal play (between two healers that's 600-800 more DPS so not bad) and average play will prolly see around a 50-100 DPS increase which again is not a lot but it's something

why should WE the players be forced to do more work for less output? stat squish sure that makes sense and affected everything across the board (enemies, players, gear, etc..), but if you want me to put more effort in for LESS DPS you can keep your simple jobs then, it jsut makes absolutely 0 sense. you're having to readjust numbers anyways so you might as well do it right

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

Doing solo anything as an AST even as a level 90 feels horrid, it feels like you're hitting thinks with a Nerf bat (or globe). I realize some people will likely suggest switching to another job, yes I have multiple jobs to pick from - however that isn't true for everyone- and also i think that while each job should be distinct, it shouldn't be a slog like you say on any job.

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I will refer said people to my quote below.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

Would you guys be okay with more complex rotations but the same DPS?
Or even lower DPS.

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I'd be fine with the same DPS but not lower because solo instances are painful enough without making them even more of a slog.

i'm standing my ground here give me one good reason we shouldn't even have a slight boost in DPS for a more complex rotation? we've already discussed bad players and how thats not a good reason. fight design isn't gonna change regardless plus it's too far gone to change older fights. (although i wish they would release more unreals and make them permanent so we have at current level ways to farm older mounts but i digress)

stop settling. thats how we get whats about to happen to kaiten where devs will just let it blow over and people will eventually just let it slide until they all forget about it. the second you settle on equal or less DPS for more effort is the second you admit that we should be aiming towards balancing around the braindead players who prolly will never even play healers in end game content. or hell prolly people who think they know how healers "should" play. and we might as well drop this movement now. we are strong we might be few but this is no time to settle. it's about time we took back the GAME from people who want everything to be braindead for no reason. EFFORT SHOULD EQUAL THE REWARD i will die on this hill.

idc if no one from the dev team reads these forums there are still plenty of people who do. and all it takes is making a large enough coordianted racket to get something done. are we going to be defeated because meh nothing will change? no! i'm sick and tired of seeing games fail or go down bad paths cause they refuse to listen to their playerbase. games should be made for everyone (if you aren't willing to at least put in the effort you don't deserve to be balanced around don't even).

get something big started like what #saveTF2 did or for honor did with it's blackouts etc... get content creators involved anyone who's willing to lend a hand. if the devs won't listen we'll just keep going bigger til they're forced to listen. hell this isn't even about healers only throw a fit about housing glams everything show that we won't become a community that will bow down to "you think you do but you don't". they need to listen to their ENTIRE community. not just investors or SE who is going to tell them just do what makes the most money.

It's true that singleplayer content would suffer with lower DPS, I was just moreso trying to load it with some baggage to see how much people wanted more buttons to press vs want to deal more damage.
Imo I'd probably want to have the same damage but more complex rotations.

I imagine this would upset some people tho but ultimately I think that the numerical damage output atm with Healers compared to Tanks compared to DPS is fine.
A decision would have to be made about this tho.

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Originally Posted by pikalovr

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I agree with the overall sentiment but not in practice here.
Healers are already not far off from Tanks in regards to damage and that's with the 1 1 1 1 1 1 spam in terms of dps.
So atm Healers are almost dealing the same damage but with much less effort, giving them more complex rotations would actually equalize it more, while giving them that plus higher damage would put them on the level of Tanks with probably still less effort tbh.
I mean this all depends on how far they go and what other changes and rebalances may happen but ultimately that'd mostly be to adress an issue that doesn't need to become an issue to begin with.

But what you're describing is already an issue as it is in that Healers don't rly have to put any effort into doing almost the same damage as Tanks whom also have to juggle more frequent Tank specific mechanics and managing the boss.

Edit: In the end of the day I think people need to look at their dps in the context of how the other roles are performing and not solely the numerical output of Healers currently.
Raising the dps of Healers would introduce new problems and would necessitate more overarching changes and rebalancing that wouldn't even be necessary if they just kept it the same numerically.
The end result if they actually did adress it too with overarching balance changes would still be the same, only difference that Healers dps increased but contextually stayed the same.
I don't really see the point of this it's more of an emotional thing of seeing the numbers get higher but in effect not being any different.

Imo I think if they made the rotations more complex then the same dps for more effort is just something we'd have to bite the bullet on.
And it might sting at first but long-term it's an issue resolved and it'll sink in.
Healers issues currently are a bit more unique and very different than issues with SAM for example.
I think to adress it without having to make these huge changes to the entire game would mean that Healers are going to get an increase in difficulty without the reward.
Because currently the scales are swinging in the exact opposite direction where Healers are getting almost the same reward but with basically no effort.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

snip
I agree with the overall sentiment but not in practice here.
I mean this all depends on how far they go and what other changes and rebalances may happen but ultimately that'd mostly be to adress an issue that doesn't need to become an issue to begin with.
But what you're describing is already an issue as it is in that Healers don't rly have to put any effort into doing almost the same damage as Tanks whom also have to juggle more frequent Tank specific mechanics and managing the boss.
Edit: In the end of the day I think people need to look at their dps in the context of how the other roles are performing and not solely the numerical output of Healers currently.
Raising the dps of Healers would introduce new problems and would necessitate more overarching changes and rebalancing that wouldn't even be necessary if they just kept it the same numerically.
*snip*
I don't really see the point of this it's more of an emotional thing of seeing the numbers get higher but in effect not being any different.

Imo I think if they made the rotations more complex then the same dps for more effort is just something we'd have to bite the bullet on.
And it might sting at first but long-term it's an issue resolved and it'll sink in.
Healers issues currently are a bit more unique and very different than issues with SAM for example.
I think to adress it without having to make these huge changes to the entire game would mean that Healers are going to get an increase in difficulty without the reward.
Because currently the scales are swinging in the exact opposite direction where Healers are getting almost the same reward but with basically no effort.

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That's your opinion, I disagree. You are arguing from the position of "tanks have a more difficult role, hence healers should do less damage". First of all, that's a hot topic where I could easily find a number of tank mains who would dispute that. Secondly, I would make the argument that why shouldn't healers have that increase since healers will be avoiding mechanics that tanks may often (not always) ignore, and heal party members? Makes no sense.

Saying that raising the DPS of healers requires rebalancing is a weak argument if it (a) improves QOL, plus re-balancing is a fact of life - it has happened and will happen again.

Finally this "scales are swinging in the exact opposite direction where Healers are getting almost the same reward but with basically no effort"? Where is this even coming from? There is no "reward" coming to healers. There have been issues brought up for years that healers have wanted corrected. When a DPS gets a skill removed, the complaints started immediately with a demand for correction ASAP - it was not considered as a "reward". No one expected to be condescended to and told "it may sting for a bit , but long-term, it's OK".

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

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good let the game be rebalanced it's about time it did anyways like i said effort should equal reward so there's no reason a SMN or RDM should be dealing less average RDPS as a BLM ffs. the entire games combat needs a rework but properly scaling DPS is a good first step. BLM rn can deal more damage by HIMSELF to outdo the damage gained from RDPS for SMN and RDM which shouldn't be the case. buffer jobs should be able to rely on their party to hit overall DPS (RDPS) equal to just bringing in a selfish DPS so it's a choice of who do you want to bring in the easier buffing job where you can contribute to people who might be playing another selfish job? or do you yourself play the selfish job that requires more effort on yourself to reach the same DPS (hint most people would still prolly choose the easier buffer DPS cause relying on 7 other people is easier than getting better yourself. but it's the choice that counts.)

bruh you actually think tanks have responsibility? we hit the mob and hit DRs and then we do nothing but our burst and 1-2-3 until the next TB (if it's a boss fight) pretty much. bosses will literally reposition THEMSELVES to the center of the arena so almost all that positioning is taken away from us. we have almost no responsibilities anymore cause oh no little timmy here can't handle moving the boss.

healers are already basically 2/3DPS of a tank. even with a 300-400DPS increase at peak optimized game play would prolly put the absolute top healers in the camp of slightly above average PLD and WAR players, and the average DPS increase of 50-100DPS would literally change nothing. and they're putting in MORE work now so thatd be perfectly acceptable. even tho i wish EVERY role would be forced to put in more effort even during downtimes or in the fights themselves with mechanics but thats a different debate once again.

asking for more reward for more effort is not an emotional thing it's literally god damn common sense. stop trying to play devils advocate and making strawman arguments when the numbers themselves back up what we want. and even if we did completely rework teh combat to adjust DPS values where we still equal 2/3rd a tanks DPS we would still ask for more damage anyways. either add more responsibilities to the other roles and more to do during their downtimes so they have a reason to be so much higher in DPS. SMN is a great example the biggest thing you have to think about is can i sit here for 2 ifrit hardcasts/garuda hardcast? and it still deals significantly more damage than BRD a way more active and proc based playstyle. or hell i'll do you one better it deals more damage than RDM

The sheer fact that the healer dps kit peaks within the first ten levels is sad.

I would be okay with the horrible dps kit if they actually can make healing interesting and not a series of up and down HP bars while spamming GCD healing.

And honestly? That's sad. For any MMO that balances classes, healers in FFXIV play with training wheels from beginning to end. Jobs should become more intuitive and complex as you level them, not be braindead easy.

I honestly blame WHM purists echoing that WHM should stay the same. AST and SCH paid the price for their lack of willingness to experiment. SGE will eventually get the Eukrasia removal while nerfing Kardia into the ground "forcing" us to heal the tank more.

I think all SE hears and sees is "HEALERS NEED TO HEAL MORE" and then they double down on giving healers more utility in favor for redundant healing. At some point healers will just compete on who has the best oGCD healing so the other can spam our asinine filler spell.

It's a slap in the face knowing that healers get one dps filler, dot, and nuke. I find it hard to believe that WHMs who had a whole war with BLMs didn't have a flood or an earthquake like spell. Or how SCH is military tactician and AST can change fate in different ways?

Personally, healers should not be healbots. Respect that healers are not just healing and nothing else. We are support to keep you alive, not baby you through damage because you can't dodge easy AoEs.

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Originally Posted by elioaiko

I honestly blame WHM purists echoing that WHM should stay the same. AST and SCH paid the price for their lack of willingness to experiment. SGE will eventually get the Eukrasia removal while nerfing Kardia into the ground "forcing" us to heal the tank more.

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All I've ever wanted was for WHM to be fun and well-designed. I've been arguing for it for years. If we're throwing blame around the playerbase, I've seen PLENTY of AST/SCH mains arguing that WHM should "stay simple", or "get something...but we don't want homogenization so not anything *I*'m good at (....which is everything). Good luck designing that well!"

Not saying I've seen a lot of direct "WHM should suck" posts (though I've seen those too), but there's definitely been a have-my-cake-and-eat-it-too with AST/SCH mains where they'd like to have seen WHM improved in a vague Hallmark sympathy card kind of way, but also list out constraints on that improvement that overlap in such a way that you can't actually improve it.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

All I've ever wanted was for WHM to be fun and well-designed. I've been arguing for it for years. If we're throwing blame around the playerbase, I've seen PLENTY of AST/SCH mains arguing that WHM should "stay simple", or "get something...but we don't want homogenization so not anything *I*'m good at (....which is everything). Good luck designing that well!"

Not saying I've seen a lot of direct "WHM should suck" posts (though I've seen those too), but there's definitely been a have-my-cake-and-eat-it-too with AST/SCH mains where they'd like to have seen WHM improved in a vague Hallmark sympathy card kind of way, but also list out constraints on that improvement that overlap in such a way that you can't actually improve it.

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Yeah I do think WHM should stay simple as in "easier to heal with than the other 3". Its the starting healer it should remain that way.

That does not mean I do not think WHM shouldn't be complex in other areas or that it shouldn't have a higher skill ceiling than it does currently.

For example a healer that focuses wholly on HoT style of healing is more challenging for a newer play to learn versus a healer that heals up front. This is what I'd like to see from AST and WHM. AST gaining more delayed healing in their base (sub 50) content while WHM keeps its on demand heals.

I also think that WHM's damage by comparison should be upfront as well. Vs SCH's previous DoT gameplay.

Tl;dr - "Simple" as in easy to understand and execute and not barebones and giving nothing to experienced players who want to challenge themselves.