(Un)Official Arcanist/Summmoner Feedback Thread

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Originally Posted by Madoka

The server handles all DoT damage checks every 3 seconds, so as long as that DoT is up when it checks it will do damage. If you want a baseline idea of what each DoT is actually ticking for, just drop one at a time. Or take into consideration the potencies of the DoTs you have up. If you hit for ~300 a tick with Bio, Bio2, Miasma and Thunder on you can assume Bio is ticking for about 80 and the others for about 70. Shadow flare would probably be about 50 per tick and Miasma2 maybe 25? Considering the main 4 doing 300 a pop at least.

Seeing every number individually would be a whole lot of hard to track small red numbers

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At least we would see it and they can break it down not only. On the screen but log as well. After we dot things up the only noticable thing we see is ruin damage float down the screen.

The smaller red numbers are your other damage sources. Tell Garuda to attack something and watch her numbers. Usually at end game its ~200 a hit, this way you can figure out what she does and when her numbers appear. Then throw some DoTs and you'll be able to tell which of the smaller sets of numbers are your dots and which are Garuda.

My only confusion in tracking my damage is that sometimes I have a 4th red number showing and I don't know if it's just other people's DoTs also being red or what. I had assumed all party member damage was purple and I have no idea where a 4th comes from. Pretty sure Garuda doesn't have an auto-attack or anything

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Originally Posted by Madoka

My only confusion in tracking my damage is that sometimes I have a 4th red number showing and I don't know if it's just other people's DoTs also being red or what. I had assumed all party member damage was purple and I have no idea where a 4th comes from. Pretty sure Garuda doesn't have an auto-attack or anything

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Shadowflare?

It's not a dot like the others. it's more a buff on yourself that damages the enemy and is there for a seperate number

summoners need a lot of work ! I am switching to BLM for now until they fix/buff Summoners.

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Originally Posted by Squa

summoners need a lot of work ! I am switching to BLM for now until they fix/buff Summoners.

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In what way? That they aren't your prototypical summoner with big summons and huge flashy animations? I mean, I agree in that respect, I miss it, but it doesn't make the current class any less valid.

In the grand scheme, the difference between BLM and SMN is that BLM gains AoE damage against 5+ targets, where SMN gains better sustained ST damage. The class itself is quite playable.

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Originally Posted by twon25

Tri disaster: is not worth casting really... If you have found a good use for it, by all means, please explain it to me...

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I've found some tricks with Tri-Disaster. Certainly not for its damage, but it is the only means in the game for controlling large groups of enemies.

The most important one is in speedrunning dungeons. Here's how it goes:
1. Tank rounds up the trash monsters.
2. Summoner casts Tri-Disaster, binding them all.
3. Party runs and initiates boss battle. Boss room is sealed and any monsters outside reset.

Advanced technique: When fighting Garuda, you can try predicting the appearance of plumes and just as it's about to happen, cast Tri-Disaster. Plumes get bound and your party gets to hit them with a couple big AoEs before they scatter away.

I just want to vent a little because people don't want to have summoner on their coil team cause they don't think summoner can do big damages. T_T

I also learn to use Fester in single boss fight including with Shadow Flares, Miasam, Bio I and II...damage can go up to 1200 and you can do fester up to 3 times during Aetherflow.

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Originally Posted by yumeyume

I just want to vent a little because people don't want to have summoner on their coil team cause they don't think summoner can do big damages. T_T

I also learn to use Fester in single boss fight including with Shadow Flares, Miasam, Bio I and II...damage can go up to 1200 and you can do fester up to 3 times during Aetherflow.

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wat?

It's generally accepted that SMN is par for (the) high(est) DPS ST, up there with MNK, and they're the best at 2-4 targets.

The only issue I've seen people have with SMN's in coil is being unaware how our dots affect Soldier's stoneskin. People are surprised we are not black mages in that regard.

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Originally Posted by ticdup

The only issue I've seen people have with SMN's in coil is being unaware how our dots affect Soldier's stoneskin. People are surprised we are not black mages in that regard.

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I never understood the problem with Soldier's stoneskin >.<

Our dots don't count as direct magic damage so instead of piercing it counts as damage to the skin instead.

Which suuuuuuckksssssss cause it takes twice as long to kill them.

Oh... that's stupid oO ? Mmh... but i remember when I first cleared T4 we were two SMN so it is not that big of an issue, is it ?

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Originally Posted by Shamirah

Oh... that's stupid oO ? Mmh... but i remember when I first cleared T4 we were two SMN so it is not that big of an issue, is it ?

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No it isn't, but some people get stupid and are like, hey, why didn't the SMN do any dps herp derp.

Just treat them as a melee with 4x cleave for that fight, which is amazing.

Yeah... I'm used to the "stupid people" since the release of the game... so yeah I don't mind them.

Square-Enix has been very generous when providing it's FFXIV players with various options to optimize playing experience via customizable settings. With this in mind, I have a proposition with regards to the sizing of the summoner's Egi.

If a player opens their Character settings and selects the Character settings tab, they will notice 3 sets of Battle effects settings, each with 3 choices. The summons are technically a perpetual, special effect. So, why not allow the player 3 choices for the sizing or even the mere presence of pets on screen.
For example: Pet (Summon) size :: Full scale ( ) Compact ( ) Hidden ( )

The full scale option would allow the player to view the summon as I believe the creators intended (as I possibly suspect from watching the summoner-specific quest lines)
The Compact option would allow the player to view the summon as it is currently represented (for players who wish to see the summons but have trouble seeing over them)
The Hidden option would completely hide the pets from the player's view or even make them transparent I sapose (for those players who aren't interested in seeing them at all)

I'm not entirely sure why SE decided to utilize such a small size for the summons, but I believe this is an option that may satisfy many players with regards to sizing, giving players who like it as it is a choice to keep it that way, while satisfying those who wish the summons to appear larger.

can someone give me some advice for advanced equip for smn? i mean the right piece of mythology and coil drops,atm im full dl with chest and cap by mithology,now im grinding some tomestone but i dont know what to take now,i was thinking about ring but maybe is better another piece of armor to have more defence in coil runs
if i dont remember bad i must take gloves but cant find post where i read hehehe

So I've been thinking about Ruinga and I was wondering if anyone ever actually got hit by it in either of the Dark Summoner fights. I'm thinking maybe we can figure out its potency going by the damage it does and the damage some of his other moves like Bio2 do. At least I'm assuming we'll get Ruinga at some point and actually have a nice AoE for more than a few mobs

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Originally Posted by Tanukki

I've found some tricks with Tri-Disaster. Certainly not for its damage, but it is the only means in the game for controlling large groups of enemies.

The most important one is in speedrunning dungeons. Here's how it goes:
1. Tank rounds up the trash monsters.
2. Summoner casts Tri-Disaster, binding them all.
3. Party runs and initiates boss battle. Boss room is sealed and any monsters outside reset.

Advanced technique: When fighting Garuda, you can try predicting the appearance of plumes and just as it's about to happen, cast Tri-Disaster. Plumes get bound and your party gets to hit them with a couple big AoEs before they scatter away.

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I have also used tri-disaster during WP speedruns for locking out mobs, it's very useful... especially if you bind them away from the purple line that way the tank isn't even getting hit before the wall comes up

Well through the power of youtube I figure his Ruinga, or Gravity Force as it's called in the fight, has a potency of 170-180.

Absolutely loving my summoner, but the "delay" after telling my pet to use contagion is driving me absolutely nuts. I've had it even take 5+ seconds before it went off, while other times it is almost instant.

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Originally Posted by Teeko

Absolutely loving my summoner, but the "delay" after telling my pet to use contagion is driving me absolutely nuts. I've had it even take 5+ seconds before it went off, while other times it is almost instant.

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It depends on what Garuda is doing at the time. If she is casting Wind Blades or other stuff, you will have to wait on cooldown, and sometimes it is kind of flaky in how it handles manual spells when they are doing their own thing.

The best thing to do is put her on Steady, then once she is out of her GCD, tell her to Contagion, and it will happen pretty much instantly.

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Originally Posted by T0rin

It depends on what Garuda is doing at the time. If she is casting Wind Blades or other stuff, you will have to wait on cooldown, and sometimes it is kind of flaky in how it handles manual spells when they are doing their own thing.

The best thing to do is put her on Steady, then once she is out of her GCD, tell her to Contagion, and it will happen pretty much instantly.

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Ain't nobody got time for that.

Just keep her on Obey, cast your DOTs, and use Contagion. Does it really matter if it takes 5 seconds?

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Originally Posted by Zer0mr

Ain't nobody got time for that.

Just keep her on Obey, cast your DOTs, and use Contagion. Does it really matter if it takes 5 seconds?

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I don't know. Does it really matter if you play your job as best as you can? I mean, we're talking about pressing 1 more button. If I'm planning to Bane those Contagion'd DoTs, to me, waiting 5 seconds on Contagion is a big waste of potential damage, since that is 5 seconds less on 3 DoTs that could be ticking on up to 3 other mobs. Instead, I'm sitting here waiting on Garuda to finish a chain of Wind Blades.

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Originally Posted by T0rin

I don't know. Does it really matter if you play your job as best as you can? I mean, we're talking about pressing 1 more button. If I'm planning to Bane those Contagion'd DoTs, to me, waiting 5 seconds on Contagion is a big waste of potential damage, since that is 5 seconds less on 3 DoTs that could be ticking on up to 3 other mobs. Instead, I'm sitting here waiting on Garuda to finish a chain of Wind Blades.

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Normally in an AoE situation, I don't need to do my full RS + Contagion + Bane rotation. Unless im doing T5. Which isn't like any other fight in this game. Typically the mobs don't live long enough for me to have to redot and bane again, let alone waste a contagion on them.

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Originally Posted by Zer0mr

Normally in an AoE situation, I don't need to do my full RS + Contagion + Bane rotation. Unless im doing T5. Which isn't like any other fight in this game. Typically the mobs don't live long enough for me to have to redot and bane again, let alone waste a contagion on them.

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No, normally you don't. The only time you Bane contagion'd DoTs is when you have RS up? The only time DPS matters is when you have RS up? You never use Contagion unless you are in T5? You never have any fights where you can get a full 45 seconds worth of DoTs in outside of T5?

Reeks of BS to me. I mean, you're basically advocating sub-par play simply because you're not in T5.

Before this conversation gets out of hand, lets remember what this thread was made for.

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Originally Posted by Spellbinder

Please keep discussion civil, and be respectful to your fellow posters.
This thread is for feedback. There are no trolls, white knights, black knights, derps, etc. here. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. It's okay to disagree, but please no attacking or provocative language.

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Originally Posted by T0rin

No, normally you don't. The only time you Bane contagion'd DoTs is when you have RS up? The only time DPS matters is when you have RS up? You never use Contagion unless you are in T5? You never have any fights where you can get a full 45 seconds worth of DoTs in outside of T5?

Reeks of BS to me. I mean, you're basically advocating sub-par play simply because you're not in T5.

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Woah woah woah!! Don't take what I said out of context. I was simply saying that the MAJORITY of the time things die before your normal DOTs fall off, let alone needing to Contagion and then bane them. Don't get me wrong. There's plenty of reasons to Contagion on ANY fight that lasts for more than 45 seconds. I only said that NORMALLY the mobs die first.

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Originally Posted by Zer0mr

Ain't nobody got time for that.

Just keep her on Obey, cast your DOTs, and use Contagion. Does it really matter if it takes 5 seconds?

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It does matter. In respect to what T0rin said, however, sometimes I believe it's better to bane before contagion. Putting your pet on steady means less potential windblade damage, and you can't really stop it mid-windblade to ready it for contagion (it will finish the last cast first), so either way you'd be stuck with some kind of delay most of the time.

To account for this I use the following rotation at the start of turn 5:


~ = Tap immediately after or simultaneously (pet commands being simultaneous)

Rouse ~ Obey > Spur > Enkindle > Swiftcast ~ Shadowflare > Bio II > Miasma > Bio *hesitate* ~ Bane > Fester ~ Thunder *switch to add #2 while thunder is casting* ~ contagion ~ *switch back to target #1* Ruin ~ Ruin II ~ *Switch to target #2 which has been contagion'd* ~ Bane ~ Obey > Aetherflow ~ Fester ~ thunder > Shadowflare > etc

IMO it's better and more reliable in some situations to Bane first, contagion a secondary target with more HP while casting something on the focus target, and re-bane again afterwards. This is assuming it's at the start of a fight where you'd have extra aetherflow charges to begin with.

Too many times I'd struggle or sacrifice DPS to hope garuda contagion'd target #1 before it went down and bane after, which caused the adds to always die slower.

Will we be getting more Pet when new Primal come out to trade in or add to, I'm not sure if you can answer this but a understanding on the topic would be nice. Leviathan coming out in 2.2, would be cool if we got as a pet, or companion, Maybe?

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Originally Posted by RegentP

Will we be getting more Pet when new Primal come out to trade in or add to, I'm not sure if you can answer this but a understanding on the topic would be nice. Leviathan coming out in 2.2, would be cool if we got as a pet, or companion, Maybe?

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I would have to do some digging to find the quote, but to my knowledge there are plans to introduce new Egi alongside new primals. Although I doubt they will be readily available at the same time, I fear the introduction of new Egi will make clear what I personally find to be the key flaw in Summoner.

That flaw, in my opinion, is that we are not a class that focuses on pet actions, but rather on DoT damage. Again, this is just my opinion, but Titan-Egi and Ifrit-Egi are completely and utterly overshadowed by Garuda-Egi and the utility of Contagion because it is the only skill that compliments the focus of Summoner damage, which is our DoTs.

If they can't find a balance between the Egi and give incentive to use something other than Contagion, then it defeats the purpose of introducing new Egi, because they'll be ignored in favor of Garuda-Egi. It would be better to simply call us Garuda Tamers since that's the only Egi that is actually worthwhile by the time we hit level 50. :(

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Originally Posted by RegentP

Will we be getting more Pet when new Primal come out to trade in or add to, I'm not sure if you can answer this but a understanding on the topic would be nice. Leviathan coming out in 2.2, would be cool if we got as a pet, or companion, Maybe?

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I would guess it's only going to be when the level cap raises.

Not fair to give only SMN more skills.

I am of the same opinion with Kevee that SMN is in a good place right now, but there are a few things that I am worried about.

Same with Spellbinder, I am afraid that any additional pets that will be added to SMN will be underwhelming with the presence of Garuda-egi. Simply because it is, currently, the only pet that actually has any synergy with us, the summoners. However if, say, one of the new pets adds extra potency to our dots (most likely shiva, but could be any of them really), such as an additional 15-30 potency, then that one other pet would have use, but then might actually be the new go-to pet, instead of garuda. What I truly enjoyed about FFXI SMN was that there was a reason to use every single pet(if you were actually good and knew what would be the most beneficial pet ability to use each fight). Such as Garuda giving haste/blink/speed boost or Predator Claws, Shiva for her superior magic merit ability/sleepga/paralysis, and the list goes on.

I have a suggestion that might help with this. Keep the way ACN and SMN themselves perform, as a whole, the same. However an expansion of pet abilities should be made. What I mean is have a sort of hybrid between how SMN in FFXI works and how SMN in FFXIV works. Keep us as a dot-based class, but have some more supportive abilities from the pets(because that's what they are in ffxiv).

Some minor changes to abilities such as: Give garuda either a speed boost(that is limited in duration but works in combat, like say 10 seconds with a 30 second cd to all party members), a "blink" effect like in ffxi, or an evasion bonus to all party members; this would be instead of her knock back (which has caused more problems than benefits imo). Oh poor ifrit... he needs basically a complete overhaul. Instead of Radiant Shield instead it should be either a damage boost for 10-15seconds for the entire party(1min cd) or an attack that adds another dot(based on our magic potency of course, which all of his attacks should be as well...). Flaming Crush is fine... but maybe add a Defense/Vulnerability Down effect to all affected targets; the other party members would particularly enjoy these aspects of his abilities as they will add to their own dps as well, not just ours. His stun, please make it faster and on priority... like no matter what he will execute it as soon as you command him to use it so long as he is within range. Personally, I am fine with Titan, but maybe have an ability for AoE Stoneskin.

The for any other pets they would add to ffxiv smn, I just hope they give them something to be worthiwhile to use because, as Spellbinder said, if they don't bring something of use that will be of similar DPS as what Garuda does for us, then they will be useless and never used.

As for enkindle, All I want is to have the potency increased by 50 and the CD reduced to 3min(being similar to BLMs Convert as that is the primary time when BLMs use flare if they don't want to suffer dps loss).

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Originally Posted by Kevee

Not fair to give only SMN more skills.

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it's only unfair if the new pets are actually worth using, as I've said above. Otherwise they are just there for show and are put away in favor of garuda =\


(this all coming from relic drk/mythic smn from ffxi ^^;)

I think it's a bit odd to lump titan into that discussion since Titan's usage is completely different.

Also I think you're overstating the problem with Garuda is a bit. Yes, contagion is awesome... but the problem is more an issue of Ifrit first being extremely vulnerable and having obnoxious uptime issues due to being in melee range, second Ifrit having the useless radiant shield over a real attack and third (and least importantly) the minor extra damage on Inferno not being really worth the loss in upfront damage.


On that same note one of my least favorite things about summoners (from a design angle) right now is how utterly terrible Enkindle is as a capstone skill. From the way the fluff describes it and the way it slots into the job it really feels like it should be the class' signature skill. Instead it's a moderately hard hitting nuke with a flashy animation on an incredibly silly cooldown (so much so that unless there's a burst window you need to aim for it's literally negligible damage over the course of a long fight).

Yes I understand those points, but I was trying to share ideas on what could be done to make the other pets viable and possibly even use multiple of over the course of a long fight. My thoughts were trying to give each pet their own niche, garuda already has a good one. for ifrit, I was trying to imply that he could help with damage in his own way, and not just ours either. The way I was presenting how ifrit could work is that he "destroys" the enemy defenses and boosts the power of everyone's attacks, which would lead to increased dps for everyone.

Yes, I agree that, as the lvl50 ability that SMN gets, Enkindle is very underwhelming. What I proposed was a minor change to it to allow us just a little more freedom in using it to be comparable with BLM. Yes, BLM can pseudo-spam Flare, but their single target dps will be fairly poor, not only to mention that their AoE dps will not be that great either probably only above average and would only be noticeably better with a very large number of enemies, which is not the case in most useful situations. Most good BLMs will only use flare on boss fights when they have Convert up, otherwise they will suffer a very large dps loss. Yes I know double flare and all that, but again that's once every 3 min and is, as Kevee has said, a gimmick used which main purpose is to clear large numbers of trash mobs quickly. And thus, that is why I say have enkindle's timer reduced to 3min(similar to convert, which is when most BLMs will use flare) and increase the potency of enkindle by 50(which when used with Spur and Rouse might hit harder than flare).

I also have mixed feelings about Bane as well. Yes I do agree that the tooltip saying all enemies within 5y will be affected should have been the case, but seeing as how the class works I am also in agreement with how it only affects 3 additional targets. Otherwise the other DPS classes would complain far too much over how overpowered we would be if that were the case and then we would see some hard nerfs. However if, say, they did change bane to affect all targets, I could see them reducing the potency of the other affected targets by a percentage(such as the additional affected targets will be under 75% potency of the transferred dots, or something to that effect).

I do agree as well that Ifrit's Enkindle is very... poor. Especially because it is conal. I also agree that the AI for Ifrit needs to have it's idle-positioning towards one of the back flank areas(I do not suggest directly behind because many bosses/mobs have rear conal attacks, this way he would be somewhat safer), but this might be somewhat tricky to program, might not I am uncertain of that side of things.

That being said, I do share similar views on how Kevee views this job, in that it is in a very good spot(for the moment) as a dps. I simply think that minor changes, like what I have posted, would be fairly sufficient to help SMN.

Enkindle really needs either a drastic drop in it's CD or a drastic boost in it's potency. I mean really, if we're fighting a boss for 5 minutes our DoTs are doing 40k+ during those 5 minutes alone. The 1k spike from enkindle is hardly anything to write home about when we're throwing out 300 potency festers three times a minute anyway.

Even on groups of enemies Garuda can do more in a minute and a half with her 30s CD AoE skill. It's very silly

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Originally Posted by Madoka

Enkindle really needs either a drastic drop in it's CD or a drastic boost in it's potency. I mean really, if we're fighting a boss for 5 minutes our DoTs are doing 40k+ during those 5 minutes alone. The 1k spike from enkindle is hardly anything to write home about when we're throwing out 300 potency festers three times a minute anyway.

Even on groups of enemies Garuda can do more in a minute and a half with her 30s CD AoE skill. It's very silly

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It needs neither.

Either you drop the CD and drop the potency, or raise the CD and raise the potency.

We do not need more DPS.

I do not want the CD/potency to be dropped because that adds more micromanagement for no gain, and it would actually be a DPS loss because you can only effectively use 1 oGCD between the GCD, or else you delay the next GCD.

@Madoka

it's not meant to be part of our regular rotation. Its meant for specific group burst damage, like flare(hence why I say enkindle should be on a 3 min cd). I do agree that it does need just a small damage boost. But this is off track; enkindle is the least of our worries as SMNs. I'm still more worried that all pets other than garuda are going to be overshadowed by our ethereal bird =\

I'm not complaining about our DPS, I just find Enkindle kinda worthless as it is. Inferno's a huge let down, Aerial Blast a moderate letdown and Earthen Fury is actually pretty nice since it's circular but you know when we use Titan. I have a macro that does rouse, spur and enkindle and sometimes it skips enkindle and I don't even mind. I'm probably messing up the animations or something when it does that though.

I just feel like a skill with a 5 minute CD should feel like it's worth waiting 5 minutes to use but that's my own opinion

Actually I just thought of something interesting. What if they made the egis get slightly stronger when you beat their extreme versions? I was kinda hoping they would after beating the HM ones actually. Even just like 5-10 potency on the attacks, or a few extra seconds on defense curl/radiant shield or something

sadly i wanted a smn badly in ffxiv and when it came out i was dissapointed a lot, i wanted a summoner not a dot class like spirit master from aion or warlock from wow, i hate those, i wanted my summoner as a final fantasy summoner not a pet class, i wanted him to cast summons as spells, not control them as pets like a hunter, if it is up to me fixing ifrit won't help with anything that i see as a summoner class, fixing bane won't help anything, i just want a full overhaul of this class, i don't know what did the people who made this class smoking, did they ever PLAY ANY FF GAME? did they ever SEE A SUMMONER? i am confused and sad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and angry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
copy pasting this from another thread, this is not helpful to anyone just wanted to say my opinion on everything, all in all i would like to summons do more damage and not me

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Originally Posted by Soralis

sadly i wanted a smn badly in ffxiv and when it came out i was dissapointed a lot, i wanted a summoner not a dot class like spirit master from aion or warlock from wow, i hate those, i wanted my summoner as a final fantasy summoner not a pet class, i wanted him to cast summons as spells, not control them as pets like a hunter, if it is up to me fixing ifrit won't help with anything that i see as a summoner class, fixing bane won't help anything, i just want a full overhaul of this class, i don't know what did the people who made this class smoking, did they ever PLAY ANY FF GAME? did they ever SEE A SUMMONER? i am confused and sad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and angry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
copy pasting this from another thread, this is not helpful to anyone just wanted to say my opinion on everything, all in all i would like to summons do more damage and not me

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Have YOU seen any FF Summoner?