Out of touch? PLL

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Originally Posted by Teno

Hahaha, saying that they only make ex/savage is truly a take of all times. Bad troll, bad bad troll.
But beyond that, gameplay is what's sorely lacking right now. The classes have good themmatic and visual design but non-existent and dumbed down gameplay design for the most part.

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As far as content goes, 7.1 is weighted very heavily in one way. The one-off content can probably be completed in 5 hours, and if you aren't doing extreme/savage/ultimate-level content, it's 1 alliance raid, 1 dungeon to replace Alexandria in expert coinflip, Pelupelu dailies(~15 minutes a day?), a custom delivery NPC(~10 minutes a week), and that's it for 4 1/2 months. There are people that want to play the game and have things to work toward without a static or sitting in PF for hours, and it really isn't there.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

You mean the "far more popular mount" that had, lemme check, a whooping 2.11% higher acquisition rate. Yes, very popular...

Considering the participation of all content in the game except the MSQ gets progressively lower, it stands to reason that max rank Island Sanctuary wouldn't have improved when nothing else does. You can see that in the drop from Pagos to Hydatos. The fact they're only 5% off when the stats are heavily weighted in Island's favour is more an indictment on how much a flop that content was. And why sacrificing exploratory content for it was a bad idea.

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What on Earth are you on about? Nowhere did I claim, or even tried to claim, Island Sanctuary was some massive success.

You brought up the statistics of the acquisition of the Island Mandragora mount, comparing it to participation in field content. You did this in an attempt to shut someone else down who's argument is that Eureka isn't all that popular. The essence of your argument hinges on the idea that acquiring an Island Sanctuary Rank 1 mount is somehow comparable to reaching Eureka Elemental Level 60. All I did, was call you out on using the two completely irrelevant to each other stats, making a false equivalency.

You essentially tried to pull a, statistics trump everything, completely ignoring how numbers don't tell the whole story. There's a reason the term "Lies, damn lies and statistics" exists.

It's really a simple concept, I don't know what you find difficult to comprehend. Island Mandragora mount is unlocked at Rank 1, Garlond GL-II is unlocked at Rank 10. The GL-II has a higher acquisition rate, ergo, more people achieved Rank 10 in IS than people who own the Island Mandragora. 10 is larger than 1, 23% is larger than 21%. The statistics you tried to provide to support your argument were wrong from the get go, ergo your whole argument falls apart.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

I mentioned that more a rebuttal to you insinuating most people will finish the story of a given piece of content. They won't unless it's something they're already engaged with or it has a big enough incentive.

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Mhm... So you replied to an argument I wasn't making. The point of what I said, is that people interact with content for a variety of reasons, and gave an example of why I participated. The point I'm making is that, participation of a certain content, doesn't make said content popular or loved, or fun, or interesting. Guess that went right over your head?

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

You right here are making an apple to oranges comparison. Reaching rank 20 in Island Sanctuary is entirely passive and requires zero effect from the player beyond slotting random things in a spreadsheet. Meanwhile, obtaining the Ozma mount necessitates cooperative play at an EX level with 24 other players where perma-death is a thing. The latter has a vastly higher demand, thus trying to stack it against max Rank IS is ridiculous. Not to mention, like I already said, Baldesion Arsenal is a separate piece of content within Eureka but isn't necessarily the main objective for participation. Most players were relic hunting or simply liked exploratory zone content. Hence why the redditor used max elemental rank over the Ozma mount.

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I know I'm right. That's why I kept replying to your bad faith arguments. And achieving the maximum rank in Island Sanctuary is completely separate piece of content to buying a mount. The amount of effort required to acquire something or not, isn't even relevant, I don't know what point you're trying to make here. Nothing I said relates to the amount of effort required to achieve something. My entire argument is interpreting the statistics wrong.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

No. you brought it up because it was more convenient for your argument.

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Uhm... no? I brought it up for exactly the reason I said, because there's multiple Mandragora type mounts, and the Adenium mount is the final one, requiring Rank 20 and Felicitous Favours. Your post didn't specify which Mandragora mount you were referring to. In fact, I gave you the benefit of the doubt, assuming you were talking about Mandragoras that unlock far later, which would've actually given your argument more credence.

If you believe otherwise, well... that's a you issue and I'm frankly not in the least bit bothered what you believe.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

"Island Mandragora" is literally one of the first set of mounts available and the easiest to obtain. Furthermore, you can't keep insisting these mounts are widely unpopular. This is the third time you've attempted to argue that point. The Island Mandragora is 2.11% lower than the Garlond GL mount you kept prattling about as being so much more popular. Neither is because nobody cared enough to even do IS despite it being literally designed as chill content for the average player.

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What part of Rank 10 is higher than Rank 1 is hard for you to understand? More people got to Rank 10 in IS than your initial argument claims. I feel like a broken record at this point. Blathering on about none of them are popular, 2% higher, doesn't change the facts. You attempted to utilise statistics to shut down someone's argument, and you were factually, objectively wrong. I didn't post those stats. You did. Don't make arguments you can't support in the future.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

I never said Eureka was necessarily good. You're assuming my position. I'm simply refuting the notion exploratory content on the whole was widely disliked when what data we have available suggests otherwise. Eureka was divisive but far from unpopular. Pagos is what really hurt the overall opinion. Meanwhile, Bozja is largely seen as a considerable improvement even if I also think it had issues.

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You understand that you can't make a claim as to whether Eureka was liked or disliked based on statistics, like... at all?

Field content is tied to relic weapons and keeping the game active. It funnels players into it by design. And people are wont to do things they find unpleasurable because they have to, or because they want something badly enough. So, even on that front, you argument falls apart.

You don't toss up a bunch of numbers without any context behind them and claim victory. How many times have we heard engagement metrics from developers and then someone is rightfully quick to point out that, just because someone engages with something, doesn't mean they enjoy it? How many posts on the forums alone, have made fun of the Endwalker relics having the highest participation, but were not considered fun or engaging, because they were just bought with tomestones? But now, since the "statistics" you provided, suit your argument, they're suddenly proving that the content was widely liked? All your numbers showed, is that a good portion of the playerbase engaged with field content, that's it. Nothing more.

And so, to conclude this circus, here I am, a person who achieved Elemental Level 60 in Eureka, who also helped a friend a year later also achieve it, a person who's done the Anemos Relic, who's completed Bozja and two relics from it; and I am telling you right now... It wasn't enjoyable to me, at all. But I did it anyway. I'm in the metrics you posted, I'm one of those statistics you're so fond of. I dislike field content, I despise their very concept. And you know what? When the next field content arrives for Dawntrail, I'm going to do that too, and I'm going to hate every minute of it.

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

And so, to conclude this circus, here I am, a person who achieved Elemental Level 60 in Eureka, who also helped a friend a year later also achieve it, a person who's done the Anemos Relic, who's completed Bozja and two relics from it; and I am telling you right now... It wasn't enjoyable to me, at all. But I did it anyway. I'm in the metrics you posted, I'm one of those statistics you're so fond of. I dislike field content, I despise their very concept. And you know what? When the next field content arrives for Dawntrail, I'm going to do that too, and I'm going to hate every minute of it.

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...Why? You can just NOT do it if you hate it so much. There's a bunch of content I don't do in this game because I have zero interest/tried it and didn't like it. I just don't understand this mindset at all. Please leave the field content alone and find something else to do so those of us that enjoy it can go have fun without hearing constant bitching about how some of my favorite content in the game is awful to the point that SE removed it to the detriment of the last expansion. Stop forcing yourself to play content you hate, seriously, life is too short for that.

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Originally Posted by CuteBucket

...Why? You can just NOT do it if you hate it so much. There's a bunch of content I don't do in this game because I have zero interest/tried it and didn't like it. I just don't understand this mindset at all. Please leave the field content alone and find something else to do so those of us that enjoy it can go have fun without hearing constant bitching about how some of my favorite content in the game is awful to the point that SE removed it to the detriment of the last expansion. Stop forcing yourself to play content you hate, seriously, life is too short for that.

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I agree that people shouldn't do content they don't like. That's why I did Diadem, Eureka and Bozja for about 30 minutes each before never stepping foot in them again, despite the fact I really wanted to do DR and BA.

One thing I'm skeptical about is the fact that the removed field content in the EW schedule is solely due to feedback. I really doubt that's the case, even if that was stated somewhere. The reason why is that the XIV team should have every important metric behind field content. Total hours played, average time played, where players dropped off, bottlenecks, etc... The fact it wasn't added to EW suggests to me a few things:

1. Field content wasn't as popular as they had hoped, and they couldn't see the value in creating more of it for EW.
2. Endwalker side content also wasn't as popular as they had hoped, and despite the fact that the cost to develop Island Sanctuary, Hildibrand, etc... was (probably) much cheaper than field content, the ROI wasn't there either.
3. Bringing back field content for DT means they think they may have found a happy medium between development cost and what they hope will scratch the itch to appease players and keep them engaged for the entire expansion.

I'm not sure what to expect for the new field content, but my expectations are low because the XIV team has shown they're not the type to do large shifts in design unless it's more simplification. I hope other players enjoy it though.

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Originally Posted by CuteBucket

...Why? You can just NOT do it if you hate it so much. There's a bunch of content I don't do in this game because I have zero interest/tried it and didn't like it. I just don't understand this mindset at all. Please leave the field content alone and find something else to do so those of us that enjoy it can go have fun without hearing constant bitching about how some of my favorite content in the game is awful to the point that SE removed it to the detriment of the last expansion. Stop forcing yourself to play content you hate, seriously, life is too short for that.

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Some players do it because they enjoy it, others because they want the relic, others yet are indifferent to content and just do it because it's there and there's nothing else to do, and a small few I'm sure do it out of an obsessive compulsive need to unlock everything.

For me, because they attached story and lore to it, and I want to experience it. I like unlocking the little cameos that pop up in the MSQ.

And in Bozja's case, I also really liked how the RDM and MCH relics looked, and I wanted them. And Bozja wasn't nearly as bad as Eureka, there were fun parts in Bozja, just the one off relic grinds weren't one of it. But, usually, if there's no story attached and I find the content not fun, I'll skip that, sure.

What’s the point of a relic that doesn’t have a grind attached, otherwise you have a glowing tomestone weapon

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

What’s the point of a relic that doesn’t have a grind attached, otherwise you have a glowing tomestone weapon

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This is why I only made 1 in EW. It was pretty meh to just grind tomes all day for a glowing weapon.

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Originally Posted by Sotaris

This is why I only made 1 in EW. It was pretty meh to just grind tomes all day for a glowing weapon.

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They even took away stat adjusting by urself. God forbid tanks/healers/dps squeezing 0.1% more dps from relics....

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Originally Posted by Daralii

As far as content goes, 7.1 is weighted very heavily in one way. The one-off content can probably be completed in 5 hours, and if you aren't doing extreme/savage/ultimate-level content, it's 1 alliance raid, 1 dungeon to replace Alexandria in expert coinflip, Pelupelu dailies(~15 minutes a day?), a custom delivery NPC(~10 minutes a week), and that's it for 4 1/2 months. There are people that want to play the game and have things to work toward without a static or sitting in PF for hours, and it really isn't there.

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It gets worse causee only 1/3rd of that said content is actually going to make it on november, the rest is spaced out 2 months later

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Originally Posted by Shikiseki

It gets worse causee only 1/3rd of that said content is actually going to make it on november, the rest is spaced out 2 months later

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Expansion should just drop with all this content day 1.. Patches should be used for enhancements/adjustments/maintenance.... not content..

That would be much, but keep the story and some stuff for those patches but give us other things meanwhile, new PVP stuff, we could have the 2nd beast tribe already. Space out EX trial 2 so its not pointless after like 2 weeks,... start some grindy stuff... but no...

I think they sadly overestimate how many people are going to want to do the whole extreme/savage/ultimate-level content they are planning, I'd see the 24 man one going the way of the 24 man in Bozja before long

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Originally Posted by Garruss

I think they sadly overestimate how many people are going to want to do the whole extreme/savage/ultimate-level content they are planning, I'd see the 24 man one going the way of the 24 man in Bozja before long

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Yeah, it'll probably have a huge engagement spike in the first two weeks and then fizzle out rapidly.

I’m still struggling to understand why square refuses to acknowledge the “I don’t want to commit to dealing with PF but I also want something that doesn’t put me to sleep”

Like is somewhere in the realm of Diablo armament, queen, Zadnor danger noodle, Zadnor Belias or southern front maths boss too much to ask for now and then

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I’m still struggling to understand why square refuses to acknowledge the “I don’t want to commit to dealing with PF but I also want something that doesn’t put me to sleep”

Like is somewhere in the realm of Diablo armament, queen, Zadnor danger noodle, Zadnor Belias or southern front maths boss too much to ask for now and then

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^this

But i believe its because they mostly nail stuff by accident.

They dont actually know what makes a fight engaging and fun, because fun is subjective by default.

For some reason however they got this weird idea that in order to make a fight fun, they increase the difficulty of it and that is far from ideal (more one shots, having to move/react faster and more frequently, less telegraphed attacks etc etc)

Long time lurker, first time poster, and a casual payer. This is what I want:

I want job design to actually reflect the classes they give us. Some jobs should be harder to master, others should be a simple macroed button spam, but can we please stop gutting the jobs, please?

In my mind FFXI was never a "trinity" style game, it was a quad style game. Yes there were tanks, healers, and DPS... but support roles actually did support. BRD and RDM are the two bread and butter examples, but the couldn't even beat out a healer. The truth of the matter is that FFXI was never very "Casual", but it wasn't unforgiving to casuals. Lest we forget, even normal mobs HURT. Easy prey mobs could and would absolutely stomp-down a solo player passing by, and that mattered.

You want good players? Teach them to be cautious players in instances prior to raids. We need less flashy blinding aoe's, and more subtle boss choreography. We need better congruent difficulty curves. That would slowly raise the baseline of what "Casual is" and to be accessible to disabled players like myself who are hindered by all of the junk being tossed around on screen, we'd be thankful.

Bosses need to do more damage, tanks need to TAKE more damage, and mitigation on a party wide scale needs to fall to the healers and the support DPS in ways that allow strategic, organic gameplay.

Make the gigantic and blinding aoe's more forgiving, particularly in tightly packed spaces (looking at you Lightweight M4). If you've literally got to smoosh against the side of the already thin area, and then dodge a back and forth aoe with 7 other players all crammed up on a tile, that's not cool. That's infuriating. I die on that mechanic every single time, and this isn't a "Get good" problem. It's a I can't SEE problem. So to be clear even as a casual, I'm not looking for "easy" content. I'm looking for "Feels Fair" content.

Finally, I want more ways to progress my character further outside of raiding. For example, Rift had a system where every level after your max one, you had a point and grid system that allowed you to increase certain attributes... FFXI had the meriting system... i'm not saying FFXIV needs to copy that idea, but I would like a progression system after max level that doesn't simply include raiding.

Give the hard core raiders what they want... but give me my own end-game way to progress... something the does make my character feel as though its getting stronger.

So a tl;dr of what I want:

1) Stop gutting classes.
2) I want more instances, not less of them.
3) Give casuals an end-game progression system that actually feels progressive.

I wanna add, its not just "cant see"... some mechanics feel like they expect you to sit on fiber being 20m away from the servers lol

Not its not always a skill issue, sometimes i can compensate for lag by moving early, sometimes i just cant avoid too fast mechanics - you die despite being 2x as far into the savezone then other players next to you.

Take the lag and add all the light and its... hard, but not in a good way lol

M4 its so hard to tell where exactly im standing bc of the other players and you know, the giant lasers around me >_>

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Originally Posted by Kuroka

I wanna add, its not just "cant see"... some mechanics feel like they expect you to sit on fiber being 20m away from the servers lol

Not its not always a skill issue, sometimes i can compensate for lag by moving early, sometimes i just cant avoid too fast mechanics - you die despite being 2x as far into the savezone then other players next to you.

Take the lag and add all the light and its... hard, but not in a good way lol

M4 its so hard to tell where exactly im standing bc of the other players and you know, the giant lasers around me >_>

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This is so true, because I'm a North American player (and a live streamer), and I play with a friend called Kresh. This is a friend I made back in FFXI, but because of the fact we're both not from America (kresh is from the UK), I play on the EU servers, and raiding just... isn't fun on bosses that don't choreograph well. I do find it a tad infuriating that FFXI managed to provide a gameplay experience that allowed us to play on mostly equal footing no matter what server you happened to be on... but I'm not going to play on an NA server when most of our original linkshell from way back in the day happen to be EU based... this is a downside I have to live with, and I do... I'm not going to fault FFXIV for being more action oriented in battle...

But, what I can and will fault them on is that they should know life long final fantasy players like myself expect jobs to act a certain way, and when the jobs don't act that way at all, I not only lose out on my ability to contribute to a party the way I might like (PLD, RDM, BRD in fFXI) and (Bard in Rift). If that's the case, boss mechanics should be accounting for the fact that not everyone has perfect latency... I mean, after all, we're all getting older too. We don't have the same time to "no life" a game the way many of us did as young teenagers. We've got families, jobs, all kinds of other concerns that would take away time to practice on progression...

unless you have a static, you're kind of out of luck if you're a player like me... purely by virtue of where I live I will always be more weight to a party than I can personally contribute or midigate... At least Pictomancer is a very accessible new job because I have a bubble when I know I'm about to eat the floor dude to an unavoidable attack... if not, I don't know what I'd do with the increase in raiding difficulty...

*exceptionally push* :c

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Originally Posted by Kuroka

I wanna add, its not just "cant see"... some mechanics feel like they expect you to sit on fiber being 20m away from the servers lol

Not its not always a skill issue, sometimes i can compensate for lag by moving early, sometimes i just cant avoid too fast mechanics - you die despite being 2x as far into the savezone then other players next to you.

Take the lag and add all the light and its... hard, but not in a good way lol

M4 its so hard to tell where exactly im standing bc of the other players and you know, the giant lasers around me >_>

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This bothers me as well. I never fully agreed with their take of trying to make XIV more and more of an action game in an engine and tab target system that isn't fit for that, on top of how slow the tick rates are compared to the reaction time for some of the mechanics.
But for CS3 if it works for Japan, it works for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Heavenchild

I saw the actual PLL and I wondered why they only introduced more extreme/savage like content to do. The majority of the playerbase is casual, isn't it?
How can they forget to deliver casual content to do? Did I miss something? What do you think about this?

And are you also very unsatisfied that they had no new information regarding to the graphics update?

If you had to rate the current PPL from 1(worst) to 10(best), what would it be?

I make this thread that people can talk about the newest stuff.

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They mostly develop around the jp playerbase and they play ALL OF THE CONTENT in a casual manner regardless of difficulty. They think even ultimates can be played casually overtime.

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Originally Posted by Minarisweet

They mostly develop around the jp playerbase and they play ALL OF THE CONTENT in a casual manner regardless of difficulty. They think even ultimates can be played casually overtime.

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I dunno about that, there's a pretty hefty (56 pages at the time of this post) thread on the JP forums that's become pretty scathing in regards to the chaotic alliance raid. That the timing of it being released around the end of year celebrations was bad, that if it ended up harder than originally intended then it should have been scaled back to its intended difficulty, that the reward structure sucks, that the hairstyle shouldn't be behind it, etc...

They actually echo a lot of similar complaints you see here on the EN forums. We've got a lot in common. The general consensus being that they'd prefer a little more casual content too.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

But for CS3 if it works for Japan, it works for everyone.

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Yeah that. usually my connection is fine but sometimes i cant help but think "man you really plan this for ppl literally sitting next to your servers and having every single effect turned off, dont you?"

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Originally Posted by Velthice

I dunno about that, there's a pretty hefty (56 pages at the time of this post) thread on the JP forums that's become pretty scathing in regards to the chaotic alliance raid. That the timing of it being released around the end of year celebrations was bad, that if it ended up harder than originally intended then it should have been scaled back to its intended difficulty, that the reward structure sucks, that the hairstyle shouldn't be behind it, etc...

They actually echo a lot of similar complaints you see here on the EN forums. We've got a lot in common. The general consensus being that they'd prefer a little more casual content too.

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I kinda wish that when they decide to add casual content it would be actual combat content and not stuff like tribes, storylines, crafting gathering or island sanctuary... None of that is pve related and its all the stuff people claimed was casual content during endwalker.