Live Letter Thoughts

I already stated my point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

So basically both sides are terrible and we're better off without all of them.

---

Yeah, and I am sure we could repeat such comments if a supreme deity appeared pointing to all the frailties of the sundered, mirrored in mankind, that resulted in their decision to break them, lest they fall prey to Dead Ends 1, 2 or possibly even 3, or some other creative instantiation of forging ahead. The sundered are pretty terrible, after all - there's those sordid caves in Sastasha, the persecution of the Garlean Purebloods fomenting the conditions to later form an empire bent on revenge through conquest, the conditions in Doma contributing to Yotsuyu's vindictiveness, the zombification of Sildih (and again Ul'dah exploiting the beast tribe categorisation for the pursuit of its own profit), the murder of Ratatoskr and concealment of the event, the Allagan empire and wanton experimentation which led Amon to revile present-day mankind as well as the ancients... the fact that our very own WoL genocided a bunch of gorillas in a fate... the usual fate killing sprees... the fact that the sundered aren't all vegans and so engage in habitual mass slaughter of non-human lifeforms. And plenty I am forgetting.

We'd be much better off without them all.

(Of course the story never takes this approach with them and instead positions them as having the right to fight to exist in spite of all of the above, in spite of all their imperfections and misdeeds... a perfectly fine position, I just wish that courtesy were extended to the ancients in the story's narrative treatment of them.)

I do hate people, so sure, let's go for it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

I do hate people, so sure, let's go for it.

---

Well I am sure with the right incentives Meteion could be convinced to get back into her old line of work. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lauront

Well I am sure with the right incentives Meteion could be convinced to get back into her old line of work. :)

---

Could we teach her some new songs first? Maybe some death metal, really get us in the apocalyptic mood?

Just don't let the internet pick, or we'll all be Rick Rolled into oblivion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lauront

(Of course the story never takes this approach with them and instead positions them as having the right to fight to exist in spite of all of the above... a perfectly fine position, I just wish that courtesy were extended to the ancients in the story's narrative treatment of them.)

---

It does. They just lost and the story has us on the other side. The story also acknowledges their side and characters understand why they are trying to do this. That doesn't mean we were going to let them do it.

How is it every time they are mentioned this becomes a debate about genocide.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

It does. They just lost and the story has us on the other side. The story also acknowledges their side and characters understand why they are trying to do this. That doesn't mean we were going to let them do it.

---

But it doesn't. It very strongly tried to justify Venat's decision through giving the impression of it both being necessary and the best conceivable outcome given the circumstances (with the writers even nudging somewhat in this direction in some of the interviews, e.g. posing the rhetorical question of whether Hermes was the first step for mankind), stylising the sundering (this is only depicted somewhat more directly in its brutal aftermath in the Nier mobile crossover), with precious little raised as an objection to it throughout the story. The notion of how this contradicts various ideals or previous positions of the Scions (or even Emet, who is conscripted in praising Venat) does not even enter the dialogue - at most there is a half-hearted apology from her, but not specifically to the ancients, but instead addressed to her sundered champions, and Y'shtola pretty briskly brushes it aside. Only later through the Q&A (which predicates her decision more heavily on her beliefs) and within the Omega quest (which introduces a re-consideration of the actions of Emet, Hermes and Venat, questioning all three, as well as walking back the notion that there is a singular 'correct' response to despair in the context of the Endsinger) is this watered down. If you are referring, on the other hand, to the struggles of the Ascians, note this isn't what I am referring to nor is it what sparked this whole little discussion in the first place; rather, it was a reference to an AU.

Hey, I'm not applauding the countless fake deaths the game constantly throw at us and I WOULD like a darker story. BUT messing with timelines just so people can feel better would be ridiculous. Actions have consequences and that would just remove the bad and sad things to introduce a forced "happy ending." We should ask for more consequences for everyone, including us, not begging for another time travel garbage because some people can't let go.

The "end it with the time travel garbage" ship sailed with EW, which plastered the mother of all time loops over its entire plot so centrally that significant elements of the setting's lore are now directly the result of a causal loop, with arguably detrimental effects on aspects of the world-building flowing from this (i.e. alternative, potentially more interesting explanations for these plot elements were discarded.) An AU is rather trivial by comparison and rather than undoing any 'consequences' in the current timeline would simply provide an opportunity to see how the ancients could handle matters given better circumstances - it need not even involve keeping faves like Emet around as you could pitch it after his demise (although SE seem hellbent on milking his popularity through cameos in flashbacks, so six of one, half a dozen of the other...) Again, while I think it'd be cool, it's not necessary to me so much as a firmer acknowledgement that things may well have turned out better for them had they been given the full story, rather than this being left as an hypothetical to be dangled about in interminable discussions relating to them. However, the objection to it that it will somehow introduce a forced happy ending at this point to me seems rather moot. With so many stars destroyed, it is but one other way of introducing a future expansion destination to the story.

Regarding people "letting go", you cannot fault them for enjoying the ancients when it was the very intention of the writers to build sympathy for the Ascians by showing the people that they lost - and this civilisation appealed to many far more than the ones we've seen put on screen so far. Some of us are somewhat less interested in the future of the game in their absence, and particularly if it doubles down on the (rather hypocritical) storytelling approach it took with them...

Maybe they could write a story about it, then? Like those stories they write every (?) expansion. They could make a little series of it and try not to contradict what goes inside the game. Because, honestly, as much as I like Venat, I'd rather forget about time travel and AU, and I'd like the devs to forget about it too. Alexander was cool, I'm not a fan of the crystal tower and I absolutely hate what we received with EW. I don't want to see what they come up with next in regards to all this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

It is. As per usual, my advice to you would include the typical suggestion of bookmarking this post. I know some posters really struggle to grasp concepts that have been explained to them many times already.

At any rate, here's the official definition of genocide:

https://i.imgur.com/Q6LEJqQ.png

The Sundering fits every single criteria. So...yes, it's an act of genocide. Hide it behind fluffy language all you like though if the protagonists wouldn't accept such a thing happening to their loved ones then there's really no reason for anybody else to either.

---

You are the most condescending person on here lol.

And I disagree that your definition matches. Venat was not aiming to cause harm, but to save.

gen·o·cide
/ˈjenəˌsīd/
noun
the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group

From Oxford.


Also for someone so tied up about it, you didn't seem to care too much when your beloved Garleans wanted to wipe the beast tribes off the planet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Also for someone so tied up about it, you didn't seem to care too much when your beloved Garlean's wanted to wipe the beast tribes off the planet.

---

They probably gonna blame Venat for the beast tribe genocide :)

I do find the genocide aspect of the debate... just... bonkers. I really never expected a situation here where simply liking a character leads to accusations of supporting mass murder. Where people acting the same when Emet-Selch first popped up? You know, founder of the multiple imperial-inclined nations that had genocidal themes and kept trying to ignight his own form of mass murder...

In a way, Hydaelyn and her part in the story felt like an adaption of the question “Why does God allow for suffering?” and I thought they did well showing her actions as a ‘necessary evil’ but thats just me. Would it have been nice for perhaps some of the Scions to perhaps disagree with her? Like Thancred, who lost Minfilia due to her unwavering faith in Hydaleyn? Sure, but who ever said the story was perfect?

But I feel once again this is off-topic... please feel free to ignore/jump on my words as if they are Target dummies and you a Dragoon eadger to test their new oGCDs. Whatever makes people happy. Now back on topic... Umm... I am looking foward to the new Reaper lady we will meet in 6.2! Hope she joins us in Trusts and stuff. Will be nice to have another female NPC who takes to the frontlines now that Lyse and (for now) Alisaie are absent from our crew. The 'female characters should be support' is a JRPG trope we should see less of, but one that FFXIV has mostly avoided thanks to them and others.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hurlstone

I do find the genocide aspect of the debate... just... bonkers. I really never expected a situation here where simply liking a character leads to accusations of supporting mass murder. Where people acting the same when Emet-Selch first popped up? You know, founder of the multiple imperial-inclined nations that had genocidal themes and kept trying to ignight his own form of mass murder...

In a way, Hydaelyn and her part in the story felt like an adaption of the question “Why does God allow for suffering?” and I thought they did well showing her actions as a ‘necessary evil’ but thats just me. Would it have been nice for perhaps some of the Scions to perhaps disagree with her? Like Thancred, who lost Minfilia due to her unwavering faith in Hydaleyn? Sure, but who ever said the story was perfect?

But I feel once again this is off-topic... please feel free to ignore/jump on my words as if they are Target dummies and you a Dragoon eadger to test their new oGCDs. Whatever makes people happy. Now back on topic... Umm... I am looking foward to the new Reaper lady we will meet in 6.2! Hope she joins us in Trusts and stuff. Will be nice to have another female NPC who takes to the frontlines now that Lyse and (for now) Alisaie are absent from our crew. The 'female characters should be support' is a JRPG trope we should see less of, but one that FFXIV has mostly avoided thanks to them and others.

---

To me it almost always feels like people trying to paint things in black and white, because they cant understand grey. Even though they say they love when characters and stories have grey moralities anyway and do a bunch of mental gymnastics over why Venat is the worst piece of scum ever, unlike our lord and saviors Emet-Selch, Lahabrea, Elidibus etc etc etc. I feel like there was at least some optional dialogue with the Scions where they did talk about Hyadaelyn's actions and how they ultimately felt about it but I could be wrong, but I somehow recall reading that.

Anyway back to 6.2 stuff, yeah I'm very excited for mystery reaper lady, and there's a good chance that she winds up being the elusive 1.0 fem-Meteor design people have been wanting finally being a canon character (due to how similar her face and hair looks from the short glimpses we see in the trailer).

Until we learn more about her, the neatest factoid about reaper lady is that she seems to be deliberately modeled after the Female Hyur default, much the same as Ardbert and company. Refuse to read too much into that, and I doubt she'll get more screen time than Lyna, at best Yugiri - but I echo the sentiment of delight to have another female melee dps-focused NPC.

Things don't appear hopeful to me based on the trailer. Pandemonium looks like more "Ancients bad" while the Scions continue to simp for Hydaelyn* and we're probably going to move Heaven and Earth to rescue Azdaja because after 5k years of being stuck in the void there's no way that Vrtra should have to "forge ahead", that's only for other people not aligned with the WoL.

* This is why there's no such thing as Venat being as bad as the Ascians. I don't see Y'shtola handing the WoL Emet's memory crystal and saying who better to have it than the person he trusted with his legacy. This also implies, as I suspected, that the Omega chain was ultimately meaningless in the grand scheme of things unless they surprise me with dialog options to reject anything further to do with her.

Ultimately, as long as they continue to paint an entire people of somehow being deserving of genocide, the person responsible for it as some kind of hero, and the themes never applying to the WoL & Friends there's no way for me to take this team's storytelling seriously anymore.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

To me it almost always feels like people trying to paint things in black and white, because they cant understand grey. Even though they say they love when characters and stories have grey moralities anyway and do a bunch of mental gymnastics over why Venat is the worst piece of scum ever, unlike our lord and saviors Emet-Selch, Lahabrea, Elidibus etc etc etc. I feel like there was at least some optional dialogue with the Scions where they did talk about Hyadaelyn's actions and how they ultimately felt about it but I could be wrong, but I somehow recall reading that.

---

Could you be thinking of the 6.1 Omega quests? I do feel I should replay Endwalker sometime, be it on NG+ or an alt, to see if there are moments like that I missed. But yeah. I never felt to me that they tried to make Hydaelyn the saint some people think we see her as. I personally see the Ascian’s as great examples of villains who have suffered and genuinely believe they are in the right, but I also see Veant/Hyde as a character who had to make a horrible choice for the greater good. Sure, perhaps the writing does not equally assign blame or shame but… in the end, this is a Final Fantasy story. Often they do end up as pure ‘Good Vs Evil’ fabels (See the whole Light vs Chaos motif common in several games and spin-offs) and at least XIV has taken great steps to show that its really not so black and white. Its one of the reasons why I rank it so highly as a MMO and FF game.

At the very least declaring oneself a fan of Venat should not really be seen as somehow more immoral as calling oneself a fan of Ascians...

Quote:

---

Anyway back to 6.2 stuff, yeah I'm very excited for mystery reaper lady, and there's a good chance that she winds up being the elusive 1.0 fem-Meteor design people have been wanting finally being a canon character (due to how similar her face and hair looks from the short glimpses we see in the trailer).

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Denishia

Until we learn more about her, the neatest factoid about reaper lady is that she seems to be deliberately modeled after the Female Hyur default, much the same as Ardbert and company. Refuse to read too much into that, and I doubt she'll get more screen time than Lyna, at best Yugiri - but I echo the sentiment of delight to have another female melee dps-focused NPC.

---

Wait, there was a possible fem-Meteor design!? I did not know that! That would be awesome... plus if thats true, it could mean she has a even more important role and connection to our WoL then I first thought. I have never been a fan of the idea that MMO/RPG media has a 'canon' archetype for a player character, but I do like how FFXIV can use this in regards to the Shards. I know, should not read too much into it all but what can I say? In deepest despair I prefer to look for the light everlasting. Bring on the 23th!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rulakir

Things don't appear hopeful to me based on the trailer. Pandemonium looks like more "Ancients bad" while the Scions continue to simp for Hydaelyn* and we're probably going to move Heaven and Earth to rescue Azdaja because after 5k years of being stuck in the void there's no way that Vrtra should have to "forge ahead", that's only for other people not aligned with the WoL.

* This is why there's no such thing as Venat being as bad as the Ascians. I don't see Y'shtola handing the WoL Emet's memory crystal and saying who better to have it than the person he trusted with his legacy. This also implies, as I suspected, that the Omega chain was ultimately meaningless in the grand scheme of things unless they surprise me with dialog options to reject anything further to do with her.

Ultimately, as long as they continue to paint an entire people of somehow being deserving of genocide, the person responsible for it as some kind of hero, and the themes never applying to the WoL & Friends there's no way for me to take this team's storytelling seriously anymore.

---

Pretty sure he gave his sister up for dead, refusing to go look sooner because of the danger the void gate might pose to his people and the scions and his people have given him the okay to at least try and look for her but hey, that's only what the game presented and who needs that right.

Probably because we don't have it, Elidbus does and hes very dead and we have no idea what became of the crystals. Hell Eme'ts final little speech to us is the entire reason we even go looking for that treasure vault in the first place.

So I come to this thread, and I see we have devolved into the genocide talk of whether Venat/Hydaelyn did commit the act itself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

At any rate, here's the official definition of genocide.
https://i.imgur.com/Q6LEJqQ.png

---

This definition above is the one used by, and is adhered to by, nations who signed and ratified the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of
Genocide, where this definition is Article II of that convention. By signatories alone, there are 152 nations on Earth that recognize this as the official definition of genocide by UN Convention.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

And I disagree that your definition matches.

---

The definition you elected to pick seems cherry-picked to back your own argument and is an incomplete definition. Other dictionaries, such as Merriam-Webster, would contradict the definition of genocide you accept, as that definition states "the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group". Note deliberate and systematic destruction does not require killing as an element for this to hold true, as you can destroy a group via re-education and sterilization.

To be more specific in Venat's case, her act via sundering Etherys and its peoples would quantify as genocide, since killing people is not a requirement in committing/perpetrating a genocide by most accepted definitions. What she did irrevocably split the Ancients' souls into smaller fragments and opening them up to life's hardships and suffering. By way of sundering the souls of the Ancients, she deliberately and systematically destroyed the Ancients as a race of people, thus the definition of genocide holds. Venat even admits to doing these acts. While the outcome turned out well for the Universe as a whole, it is still indeed a case of genocide. Whether you believe this to be justified is the part that is open to interpretation.

My own personal opinion on the matter would say no particular party in the story has the right to commit the act of genocide even if the outcome was positive. As such all of these parties would be in the wrong. Emet, Hermes (using the Meteia as the instrument of destruction), and Venat all perpetuated the act of genocide at some point in the story. Any empire that did as the definition from Article II states also committed genocide.

As far as MSQ related stuff is concerned, I'm interested on seeing where the story goes. I do actually want some clarification on Venat between where we encounter her in Elpis up to the point she elects to sunder Etherys. Without that information, it is difficult for me to ascertain all of the things Venat did or did not do up until that point, as I would assume she, as a former bearer of the Seat of Azem, would probably try to avoid the foretold destruction of her people caused by The Final Days and avoid making the decision to sunder Etherys without exhausting all other options.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Knot_D

They probably gonna blame Venat for the beast tribe genocide :)

---

They probably gonna blame Venat for EVERYTHING

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rulakir

Things don't appear hopeful to me based on the trailer. Pandemonium looks like more "Ancients bad" while the Scions continue to simp for Hydaelyn* and we're probably going to move Heaven and Earth to rescue Azdaja because after 5k years of being stuck in the void there's no way that Vrtra should have to "forge ahead", that's only for other people not aligned with the WoL.

* This is why there's no such thing as Venat being as bad as the Ascians. I don't see Y'shtola handing the WoL Emet's memory crystal and saying who better to have it than the person he trusted with his legacy. This also implies, as I suspected, that the Omega chain was ultimately meaningless in the grand scheme of things unless they surprise me with dialog options to reject anything further to do with her.

Ultimately, as long as they continue to paint an entire people of somehow being deserving of genocide, the person responsible for it as some kind of hero, and the themes never applying to the WoL & Friends there's no way for me to take this team's storytelling seriously anymore.

---

then you'd be better off finding something else

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hagare

They probably gonna blame Venat for EVERYTHING



then you'd be better off finding something else

---

"The moon could use a 2nd lasering."

https://i.redd.it/ruviieyoykv81.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BaconBits

"The moon could use a 2nd lasering."

https://i.redd.it/ruviieyoykv81.jpg

---

The moon could use some housing.
Though that'd probably give yoshi-P an aneurysm

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hagare

The moon could use some housing.
Though that'd probably give yoshi-P an aneurysm

---

It's there, but they've been adjusting for our size.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hagare

The moon could use some housing.
Though that'd probably give yoshi-P an aneurysm

---

If the Moon gets housing, I want a House in Thavnir.....I like Thavnir

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hagare

The moon could use some housing.
Though that'd probably give yoshi-P an aneurysm

---

I would not want to leave my cottage in Ishgard, but I would love that. Didn't the Loppirts say they where working on (Albet small) homes for the potential Eorzans leaving the Final Days?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deveryn

It's there, but they've been adjusting for our size.

---

it'd be hilarious if one ward exists in one big house.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

If the Moon gets housing, I want a House in Thavnir.....I like Thavnir

---

too hot and humid.

tbh, Old Sharlayan probably has the best chance of getting housing.
Though thav can make favela houses like in Rio.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hagare

it'd be hilarious if one ward exists in one big house.



too hot and humid.

tbh, Old Sharlayan probably has the best chance of getting housing.
Though thav can make favela houses like in Rio.

---

PFFT, I can take the Heat, thats not going to stop me.
Sharlayn would be neat to, but given a choice, Id rather live in the Land of Hippo Riders and the Mighty Dragon who rules by Proxy

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

by Proxy

---

not anymore.

Favelas in Thavnair? Am I reading that right? :p Thavnair is based on India, and it's not like we don't get big houses. Since it's mercantile it doubtless will have rich homes.

Quote:

---

And that meal didn't have to be McDonald's

---

You havent done the crafters quests in Sharlayan..have you?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VelKallor

You havent done the crafters quests in Sharlayan..have you?

---

That doesn't help EW's argument, lol.

Quote:

---

Is it any wonder why for many 6.2 represents a crucial moment that determines whether or not they want to carry on through more of this or not?

---

[ Citation needed ]

Quote:

---

That doesn't help EW's argument, lol.

---

It does when you remember where that burger came from.

*sigh*

Island island iceland icecream unga bunga want to build fire.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RobynDaBank

Favelas in Thavnair? Am I reading that right? :p Thavnair is based on India, and it's not like we don't get big houses. Since it's mercantile it doubtless will have rich homes.

---

RAH
https://respawnfirst.com/wp-content/...an-696x392.jpg
and
https://img.freepik.com/premium-phot...1977.jpg?w=740

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hagare

RAH
https://respawnfirst.com/wp-content/...an-696x392.jpg
and
https://img.freepik.com/premium-phot...1977.jpg?w=740

---

Wow! That new version of g-mod is looking great! :^O

I've got a question since people are talking about genocide. Did Hydaelyn actually kill anyone when she split existence into 14 pieces? As I understood it, separated people, soul, body, and planet. Made 14 lesser versions of each in 14 different states of existence. If not, how could civilizations still remember ancients?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tetsujin

I've got a question since people are talking about genocide. Did Hydaelyn actually kill anyone when she split existence into 14 pieces? As I understood it, separated people, soul, body, and planet. Made 14 lesser versions of each in 14 different states of existence. If not, how could civilizations still remember ancients?

---

It's the Ancients that want to sacrifice themselves to save their world by primal, but Venat stopped them and sunder the world to stop their nonsense... (Correct me if I'm wrong)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Knot_D

It's the Ancients that want to sacrifice themselves to save their world by primal, but Venat stopped them and sunder the world to stop their nonsense... (Correct me if I'm wrong)

---

From what was implied slightly (and we probably could have understood more if a certain zone wasn't 90% devoted to fan service) is that the influence of Meteion was suggesting the populace sacrifice half of themselves - again and again - to sustain Zodiark. While we see that Zodiark was holding it back just fine without more sacrifices, I sort of assumed it was that it was the direct result of the Song's influence causing people to double down until no one was left.

SE didn't clarify or justify it, but that was my final interpretation of the cinematic. Why Venat wasn't influenced and why the Unsundered wanted to continue the cycle (sacrifice all those on the shards) I have no idea.