What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by Garnix

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It helps to add stakes to the story. For example, it’s one of the few problems i had with ShB. We face our toughest foes yet, and somehow come out unscathed, mainly because they had to resort to major plot armor to assist the scions in not dying. Then this expansion where it’s the most dire situation yet, we’re facing a cataclysm/apocalypse that once decimated the entire planet and somehow the main cast ends up yet again, completely unscathed. It’s makes the story feel completely one sided when everything on the protag side goes well. Especially when the theme of said expansion is coping with loss, and suffering, but then they’re literally resurrected 5 mins after sacrificing themselves. Things like this and refusing to kill off some characters end up resulting in contradicting your own themes. You brought up the haurchefant thing and it’s true.They milk it because it’s one of the few major character deaths. We haven’t had a major character death for 3 expansions now so they have to resort to milking the same 2-3 characters lmao. It gets old and stale real quick when they try to talk about all we have lost and it’s about 3-4 people and then you look at say the garleans of the ancients and the difference is night and day. It seems only the antagonists or minor characters ever have to actually suffer while the protagonists get off scot free.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

It helps to add stakes to the story.

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I don't think I need my teammates to die to have any stakes in the story.
As I said, I just think that if they kill one of them, we would have an emotional cutscene, and then forget about it an hour later when the next NPC comes to replace the one who died.

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Originally Posted by Conundrum

Because you have to show that death is an actual potential outcome. Once that's taken off the table there are no real stakes to anything. Seriously, the second you realize the teary death conga line is going to end with them all coming back...the whole last part of the game falls flat "full of sound and fury...signifying nothing". It has nothing to do with stupid and condescending remarks about "Hollywood movies" and "western culture" or whatever nonsense.

It tends to be fanboys and weird shippers who never want characters to die.

EDIT: The endless fake deaths, and the complete lack of guts to kill any characters is making me care less and less about the story. I feel like everyone is walking around wearing god level plot armor. Squenix has completely lost their nerve in story telling. Introducing a character (like oh say a happy young couple and their baby) just so you can kill them off 5 minutes later is crap writing. I don't care about those characters. It's just a failed attempt at manipulation to avoid hurting a main characters.

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Yup, this is what it is, IMO. Fear of offending fanboys/shippers. On some level I understand it, because some of them in Japan can be quite mental in how they react when something happens to a character they've become overly attached to, all the way up to violent acts (e.g. arson), but part of it is also for financial reasons, i.e. they don't want to risk losing some customers. This "western culture" nonsense is just that - it's more of a choice in FF14 than it is anything to do with Japanese culture, because we can point to several animes and JRPGs where there is a lot more death, some of which are extremely popular.

It's a good thing FFXIV seems to be moving away from stories of war and world ending threats because my opinion is neither work for writers who only want to kill the 'bad guys' and never the 'good guys'. Maybe this is a factor into having sympathetic villains as well, otherwise the player would never have a reason to feel sad for anyone.

I'm not a fan of excessive deaths like GoT has, but the fact that EW had to focus so heavily on deaths of ARR characters shows how little loss the Scions have had along the way. The same with suffering. It's only been the newest recruits, Estinien and G'raha, who are intimately familiar with it. It's difficult to not look at them as privileged when they endure little to no hardships through multiple wars and assorted other catastrophes. They're certainly not who I'd consider the poster children on how much more adapted the sundered are to despair. It often seems like the average citizens of Eorzea have gone through more than the saviors of the world.

And even then, they're mostly content to offload all the hard work onto the WoL, to the point of another timeline working to change the past to bring them back to do just that. It's a point very poorly made and ends up just seeming unfair to the ancients, IMO. Something of a joke.

I agree anyway; if they're just going to confine the losses to one side, perhaps it's good that they're moving to another type of story.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I like happy endings, but I'm an Ancient fan and they most certainly did not end happily. They could have, which is the frustrating part. Time travel that results in saving the WoL's life? Fine. Time travel that results in saving the unsundered world? Not possible.

The writing needed to be tighter given the controversial elements of it. You have the two individuals responsible for all the genocides (and not just on Etheirys) being treated as good people in bad situations, ironic given the villainous treatment of the Ascians who only existed as a result of both Hermes and Venat. I don't see how anyone can claim the story has been "grey" given the stark contrast in how characters and their motivations have been addressed. Did it result in the sundering? = Good. Did it try to prevent or reverse the sundering? = Bad. The amount of carnage involved in either doesn't matter as everything is reduced to that.

Maybe the problem is that none of the Scions were sacrificed for ridiculous reasons, otherwise we might have some debates on why X had to die when the situation had alternatives. It's not nitpicking to point out that all of Venat's reasons for remaining silent don't hold up to surface level scrutiny since everything she says is contrary to information from quests we did just 1-2 hours prior. It reminded me of someone who'd already decided what they were going to do and was making excuses for it.

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Indeed.

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Originally Posted by Garnix

What is the point of having main character dying?
Look at Papalymo. The man died, then what? You just don't hear about him until you "see him" in a dungeon at level 89. It's like none of the characters evolve through his death, there is pretty much no grieving, and it didn't impact the plot at all. It served pretty much nothing from a story telling perspective, aside from it being the trigger for Lyse revealing her true identity.
Moenbryda's death became "meaningful" 4 expansions later...
Haurchefant's death is wwaaaaaayyy overused in the story, as the devs seem to think that it is the event that impacted the WoL (and us) the most. (I didn't really care about Haurchefant personally)
Cool emotional death scene though. Same for Ysayle. Same for Emet. Or even Tsuyu.
etc.

Honestly, the only deaths that actually brought something meaningful to the story were Minfilia's (because of the impact it had on Thancred specifically) and Louisoix's (for the impact it had on the whole game).
Having minor characters die and impact the main characters moving forward is much better at this point from my perspective. (for example, kill Runar or Matoya to have some Shtola character development, because she really needs it at this point.)
I mean, I would be fine if any of the scions die at some point, I just don't think it would add much to the story. The only thing I could eventually see impacting the storytelling is if only one of the twins die. If any other character die, it would just be 5 minutes of mourning and then moving on.

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Not gonna lie, if one of the twins die I might end up leaving the game entirely. I know its an extreme stance, and maybe im one of the only people that feels that way, but still. Any of the other scions? They can go if SE deem it necessary.

I will say that if they do kill off one of the scions, I really hope its in an epic fashion. Off screen or through some random happenstance would be a let down.

i'm truly op dropping a post and leaving the club.

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Originally Posted by Conundrum

This thread makes me happy that at least some of us aren't gushing about how this is the bestest story ever because they cried during the cheap emotional manipulation scenes.

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getting a slight hint of condescension from this post. must be the emotional manipulation. *shrugs*

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Originally Posted by Thaciscokidd

This is the part actually bugs me. Unless Azem shows up in the Pandemonium raid series what other reason should we meet him/her? With this arc ended, should we have any reason to deal with the unsundered?

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i dont think the zodiark/hydaelyn arc is important in relation to the unsundered. seeing as we pretty much have a permanent portal to the past, we can freely explore the unsundered world. it's pretty much just another option to worldbuild.

I feel like at least some of the backlash towards Venat and Hydaelyn could of been avoided if they at least showed her trying to inform Hades and some others of the Meteia's existence and the threat she poses to not only their star but the entire universe without alerting Hermes. Perhaps even have a scene where Venat and Hades along with a few other members of the Convocation are arguing about a plan of action on how to deal with the Meteia only for her wave of negative Dynamis to finally pierce through the dense aether of Etheirys and cause the start of the Final Days.

She might not have been able to convince the other members of the Convocation to take action but Hades, who took our story with the utmost seriousness despite deriding it as a load of bull, would have seen it as his duty to at least investigate her claims. It would take traveling to Elpis and using their echo to review what happened during those few days before getting "accidentally" memory wiped, along with questioning a few of the researchers there to confirm that there was a fourth person assumed to be a familiar traveling alongside them and Hythlodaeus. The real problem would be getting any of that done without arousing the suspicion of Hermes, their only actual expert on Dynamis. Even though he wouldn't be the Chief of Elpis upon being uplifted to the seat of Fandaniel, it stands to reason that he would still be keeping an eye on it. If he received word that not only are his precious Meteia still alive, but the others are planning something involving her (whether that be retrieving her from the edge of the universe or destroying her) then there's no telling what he would do.

Instead what we got was Venat saying she should be careful about who she brings into her fold before seemingly telling no one save for the Watcher who probably wasn't even aware of her plan to sunder Eitherys, and the current Azem who opposes both her and the Convocation's plans in favor of protecting as many people as possible.

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Originally Posted by ErryK

i dont think the zodiark/hydaelyn arc is important in relation to the unsundered. seeing as we pretty much have a permanent portal to the past, we can freely explore the unsundered world. it's pretty much just another option to worldbuild.

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The only problem with that is that the Elpis portal is part of a closed time loop. Who knows what could happen if we went back and interacted with something outside of that area.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/1-20-2017/p5vbK-.gif


Side note: Whatever happens in the Pandemonium raid series might make it not closed thus adding weird time travel stuff and raising a ton of more questions.

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Originally Posted by Thaciscokidd

The only problem with that is that the Elpis portal is part of a closed time loop. Who knows what could happen if we went back and interacted with something outside of that area.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/1-20-2017/p5vbK-.gif


Side note: Whatever happens in the Pandemonium raid series might make it not closed thus adding a weird time travel stuff and raising a ton of more questions.

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During MSQ, before sending us to the past, Elidibus said that he saw us there, in Elpis. Implying that the events of Pandaemonium are canon to the events of the MSQ.

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Originally Posted by Conundrum

"Retiring" being the worst consequence would be laughably lame.

Lets turn the question around. Why are you all so adamant that no one should die? I mean specifics, like addressing my reason why you need occasional deaths.

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iam of the few (maybe?) out there who welcome if someone in the scion die or simply "missing" (the usual dead but didnt show the body), and i got several reason for that...

1. the scion has overstayed their welcome, granted they "change" at some point, on ARR to HW and again "upgraded" on SB to SHB, but they are still the same person we know, thancred and alphinaud is the only one i like because their character personality drastically change overtime, others however.... yeah like i said, they overstayed their welcome.

2. because of point number 1, aside from the twin, i dont really fond with them anymore, now my best buddy is estinien who are still a fresh face in my book.

3. with one (or some) of them dead/gone, this can give other character like the hoary boulder party to get some spotlight, seriously i WANT to see them more, arenvald got his spotlight, where is the time for boulder party?

4. helping on point 3, this also pave the red carpet for new character. hell... at this point i welcomed Y'mhitra to replace y'shtola if she gone/dead, ler her shine damnit.

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Originally Posted by gumas

iam of the few (maybe?) out there who welcome if someone in the scion die or simply "missing" (the usual dead but didnt show the body), and i got several reason for that...

1. the scion has overstayed their welcome, granted they "change" at some point, on ARR to HW and again "upgraded" on SB to SHB, but they are still the same person we know, thancred and alphinaud is the only one i like because their character personality drastically change overtime, others however.... yeah like i said, they overstayed their welcome.

2. because of point number 1, aside from the twin, i dont really fond with them anymore, now my best buddy is estinien who are still a fresh face in my book.

3. with one (or some) of them dead/gone, this can give other character like the hoary boulder party to get some spotlight, seriously i WANT to see them more, arenvald got his spotlight, where is the time for boulder party?

4. helping on point 3, this also pave the red carpet for new character. hell... at this point i welcomed Y'mhitra to replace y'shtola if she gone/dead, ler her shine damnit.

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I think they are already planning on these hence they disbanded the scions so that they can probably form a fresh team. Some of the scions will probably be like Lyse who will occasionally appear etc. for story purposes.

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Originally Posted by Garet

I think they are already planning on these hence they disbanded the scions so that they can probably form a fresh team. Some of the scions will probably be like Lyse who will occasionally appear etc. for story purposes.

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i really hoping for this too, now that scion is disbanded, this could help us meet new character or even new organization that act like scion but with bunch new character (and some old character maybe)

my worst nightmare is that the writer will pull "avenger assemble" by having all the scion band together and do shit together again around midway story (claiming the "new scion" or something)

iam going to shake my hard so hard if it really go like that lol

I’m seeing a lot of people writing their subjective positions as objective facts. Let’s try to be more fair on this issue.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

I’m seeing a lot of people writing their subjective positions as objective facts. Let’s try to be more fair on this issue.

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Please stop trying to sound "above it all".

The discussion is over story quality. By definition it's all based on subjective opinions.

Having replayed the MSQ on my alt, I can definitely say it's not perfect - Garlemald's arc rushes to a conclusion, Elpis runs at a slow pace, and everywhere else seems to be rushing, dragging, or both. Labyrinthos especially, where the end is nigh... so you run around Sharlayan's bunker with occasionally philosophizing moon rabbits.

That said I have to agree that the discontent is pretty concentrated on the official forums, mostly from people who liked the Ancients and were dissatisfied with how their end was handled, or otherwise want / need character death(s) for emotional torque. Elsewhere it's overwhelmingly (though admittedly not universally) seen positive reception. There is such a thing as overanalysis, and subverting expectations doesn't always play out the way you want it to.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

I’m seeing a lot of people writing their subjective positions as objective facts. Let’s try to be more fair on this issue.

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You are completely correct.

I'm still trying to figure out how Elidibus even knows we were on Elpis. Unless he was involved in Pandemonium somehow, he shouldn't have any clue that we were there since everyone who did know got mind wiped. Well.. Except for Venat, but she's like, the worst mom and didn't think to tell anyone.

I thought it was amazing, but stories are subjective. For every 5 people who love the story, there is 1 who does not like it.

For Yoshi P's "Magnum Opus" it felt very out of place with what seems like many last minute changes.

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Originally Posted by EmoPanther

I'm still trying to figure out how Elidibus even knows we were on Elpis. Unless he was involved in Pandemonium somehow, he shouldn't have any clue that we were there since everyone who did know got mind wiped. Well.. Except for Venat, but she's like, the worst mom and didn't think to tell anyone.

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I wonder who the teased white-robed Ancient was at the end of the story in the previews.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

For Yoshi P's "Magnum Opus" it felt very out of place with what seems like many last minute changes.

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I’m glad i’m not the only one that felt like there were some last minute changes done lol.

Remember the "mighty" Zodiark wasn't created to fight or be a weapon. It was made to rewrite the natural laws of the world and it did this just by existing. So us beating it at something it was never intended to when it was in severely weakened state isn't that crazy

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Originally Posted by Conundrum

Please stop trying to sound "above it all".

The discussion is over story quality. By definition it's all based on subjective opinions.

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That’s my point. You’re making objective statements about story moments when they are by definition based on subjective feelings. A lot of people liked the story and don’t feel it had “cheap” moments. You disagree. That’s okay. But disparaging the story and claiming it was bad is different from saying, “I didn’t like it.”

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Originally Posted by Pyro2hell3

Remember the "mighty" Zodiark wasn't created to fight or be a weapon. It was made to rewrite the natural laws of the world and it did this just by existing. So us beating it at something it was never intended to when it was in severely weakened state isn't that crazy

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I don't think this holds all that much weight, tbh. It's unknown whether he would've been designed to fight or not (I'd say we can surmise he could) and given the state of the world, one might think he could've been imbued with such an instinct. The more relevant factor is that he is a primal intended to be controlled by someone, i.e. Elidibus, who was absent at the time. His might isn't really in dispute, because Hydaelyn herself concedes that his power was so great that to defeat him she needed to drag the star into it too. Also, Amon was controlling him at the time.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

That’s my point. You’re making objective statements about story moments when they are by definition based on subjective feelings. A lot of people liked the story and don’t feel it had “cheap” moments. You disagree. That’s okay. But disparaging the story and claiming it was bad is different from saying, “I didn’t like it.”

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I think it can be inferred if someone is saying a story is bad, they’re saying it from their own perspective. I don’t think we should do leaps to try and frame it as someone trying to state it as such for others.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

I don't think this holds all that much weight, tbh. It's unknown whether he would've been designed to fight or not and given the state of the world, one might think he could've been imbued with such an instinct. The more relevant factor is that he is a primal intended to be controlled by someone, i.e. Elidibus, who was absent at the time. His might isn't really in dispute, because Hydaelyn herself concedes that his power was so great that to defeat him she needed to drag the star into it too. Also, Amon was controlling him at the time.

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Well...no. I think they quite literally stated that the creation of Zodiark was to save their world from The Final Days.
Thats was the point of his Creation. Thats what he was meant to do. He wasn't made to be a Weapon.
Of course he was Powerful, he was a Primal. And there was just simply fear of what he COULD do if left unchecked. So as far as we know, he never got a chance TO be Dangerous.
Until DAMDaniel pulled a Zenos X Shinryu and took control.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

That’s my point. You’re making objective statements about story moments when they are by definition based on subjective feelings. A lot of people liked the story and don’t feel it had “cheap” moments. You disagree. That’s okay. But disparaging the story and claiming it was bad is different from saying, “I didn’t like it.”

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Said it better than I could...

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Well...no. I think they quite literally stated that the creation of Zodiark was to save their world from The Final Days.
Thats was the point of his Creation. Thats what he was meant to do. He wasn't made to be a Weapon.
Of course he was Powerful, he was a Primal. And there was just simply fear of what he COULD do if left unchecked. So as far as we know, he never got a chance TO be Dangerous.
Until DAMDaniel pulled a Zenos X Shinryu and took control.

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Emet-Selch's own testimony confirmed they fought and fought. She confirms he was so potent that she could not suppress him without dragging the star into it.

If he could do all that without a controller, it stands to reason he was far from incapable of fighting, and given what struck their star, i.e. a weakening of the celestial currents but also out of control creation magicks spawning monstrosities, it would not be illogical to surmise this would include the ability to weaponise his powers. Or on the other hand, it might not have mattered whether his intent covered such a purpose or not, so much as he was able to make flexible use of his powers. Either way, he was demonstrably capable of it.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

That’s my point. You’re making objective statements about story moments when they are by definition based on subjective feelings. A lot of people liked the story and don’t feel it had “cheap” moments. You disagree. That’s okay. But disparaging the story and claiming it was bad is different from saying, “I didn’t like it.”

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That doesn't change the fact the story was nonsensical.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I think it can be inferred if someone is saying a story is bad, they’re saying it from their own perspective. I don’t think we should do leaps to try and frame it as someone trying to state it as such for others.

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I see multiple people claiming that story moments were “ cheap” or that the story was rewritten at the last minute, those aren’t perspective based arguments. They are clearly stating the story was subpar for reasons beyond taste, that is what I’m pushing back on.

The Finals Days themself make no bloody sense. The ancients were dense in aether, so dynamis didn't affect them. And, since Zodiark is gone, and dynamis still exists, people should be still turning into monsters.

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Originally Posted by Velnora

The Finals Days themself make no bloody sense. The ancients were dense in aether, so dynamis didn't affect them. And, since Zodiark is gone, and dynamis still exists, people should be still turning into monsters.

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Dynamis by itself has no will, it only overwhelms the Aether in peoples bodies if someone or something imbues it with the desire to do so. It’s why the Elpis crew are able to conclude that there is someone causing these events.

There's a number of threads for those who have no issue with the story to post in if they see fit. I must admit, I don't think there is much benefit in attempting to police the feedback given and concerns raised by other players but each to their own, I suppose.

At any rate, here's some of the aforementioned threads that I noted:

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...astic-story%21

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...ture-battle%21

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

I see multiple people claiming that story moments were “ cheap” or that the story was rewritten at the last minute, those aren’t perspective based arguments. They are clearly stating the story was subpar for reasons beyond taste, that is what I’m pushing back on.

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I mean they kind of are. “X plot point was cheap.” That’s my opinion. That’s my perspective. You’re turning it into something bigger than it actually is.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Dynamis by itself has no will, it only overwhelms the Aether in peoples bodies if someone or something imbues it with the desire to do so. It’s why the Elpis crew are able to conclude that there is someone causing these events.

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It overwhelms the lack of aether. Even then, it still makes no sense, as the final days were still occuring during their time. And it still should be happening now.

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Originally Posted by Velnora

It overwhelms the lack of aether. Even then, it still makes no sense, as the final days were still occuring during their time. And it still should be happening now.

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I mean, the catalyst for the Final Days in their time is one and the same as the one in the Sundereds' time. Difference between the two episodes is, initially, they never pinpointed the actual reason and only Venat (presumably others she informed) knew of the actual source of the problem and Zodiark, despite being a God to rewrite the laws of reality and to bring salvation, ultimately acted more like an aetherial dam for the torrential rivers of Dynamis coming from the Ultima Thule (and, as a result, providing a bandaid solution for temporary relief). His presence was also to strengthen the waning celestial aetherial currents, as originally Fandaniel assumed that those weaker spots were part of the reason behind why things were going to shit.

Ancients were too aetherially dense for the Dynamis to interfere directly with their physical being, so instead their creations - which are made up of a fraction of their aetherial energy - began to turn instead. Whereas, for sundered souls, their aetherial density isn't enough to purely ward off Dynamis (and also leads into the ability to more easily directly channel/manipulate dynamis, ie: Limit Break, Dynamis Dice as gameplay mechanics.)

Dynamis itself just energy affected by emotion, and emotions cover the entire emotional spectrum. It, itself, doesn't have a motive unless it's harnessed by someone who does (the Meteia).

The WoL/Scions removed the catalyst for the Final Days (the Meteia and the overwhelming sorrow/despair/etc... they hoarded for millenia), and so the Final Days ceases.

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Originally Posted by Alaray

I mean, the catalyst for the Final Days in their time is one and the same as the one in the Sundereds' time. Difference between the two episodes is, initially, they never pinpointed the actual reason and only Venat (presumably others she informed) knew of the actual source of the problem and Zodiark, despite being a God to rewrite the laws of reality and to bring salvation, ultimately acted more like an aetherial dam for the torrential rivers of Dynamis coming from the Ultima Thule (and, as a result, providing a bandaid solution for temporary relief). His presence was also to strengthen the waning celestial aetherial currents, as originally Fandaniel assumed that those weaker spots were part of the reason behind why things were going to shit.

Ancients were too aetherially dense for the Dynamis to interfere directly with their physical being, so instead their creations - which are made up of a fraction of their aetherial energy - began to turn instead. Whereas, for sundered souls, their aetherial density isn't enough to purely ward off Dynamis (and also leads into the ability to more easily directly channel/manipulate dynamis, ie: Limit Break, Dynamis Dice as gameplay mechanics.)

Dynamis itself just energy affected by emotion, and emotions cover the entire emotional spectrum. It, itself, doesn't have a motive unless it's harnessed by someone who does (the Meteia).

The WoL/Scions removed the catalyst for the Final Days (the Meteia and the overwhelming sorrow/despair/etc... they hoarded for millenia), and so the Final Days ceases.

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But if it doesn't have a motive, then it shouldn't affect Meteia. Dynamis is stupid.

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Originally Posted by Velnora

But if it doesn't have a motive, then it shouldn't affect Meteia. Dynamis is stupid.

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Dynamis isn't what affected them, though -- the Meteia are, in FFXIV's version of the word, entelechies, which are basically empaths in this case. Once so many Meteia encountered so many incredibly dense, negative emotions from those civilizations they watched fall/die/etc... those feelings became a part of their emotional state, a constant burden of sorrow born from the ends of thousands of worlds. They could no longer separate their ontological selves from the massive tsunami of these emotions (and part of this is a bit of a design flaw, since they /are/ made primarily from Dynamis, which would mean their Dynamis would change to be aspected to these emotions as they continuously encounter them). To where, their thought went to "everything is destined to die, and so everyone is destined to suffer. The only way to remove the suffering, is to kill everything" (mirroring the conclusions of the dead civilizations, which were conclusions born from the same source of emotional distress) and from there, they harnessed the external energies of Dynamis that was then heavily infused with the sorrow of thousands, thousands of civilizations'. Dynamis is an energy affected by emotion, the Meteia harnessed it with a particular emotional drive and a particular motive in mind.

The raw, conscious emotions affect entelechies (the flower turning black with Hermes and you), dynamis is just an energy that's a blank slate until someone harnesses it with their own emotions (be it Sorrow, as seen from the Meteia, or Conviction, as seen when you LB3, or a mixture of Desperation, Conviction and Will -- like when Elidibus LB1/2/3/4's. Dynamis isn't /always/ sorrow).

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Originally Posted by Alaray

Dynamis isn't what affected them, though -- the Meteia are, in FFXIV's version of the word, entelechies, which are basically empaths in this case. Once so many Meteia encountered so many incredibly dense, negative emotions from those civilizations they watched fall/die/etc... those feelings became a part of their emotional state, a constant burden of sorrow born from the ends of thousands of worlds. They could no longer separate their ontological selves from the massive tsunami of these emotions (and part of this is a bit of a design flaw, since they /are/ made primarily from Dynamis, which would mean their Dynamis would change to be aspected to these emotions as they continuously encounter them). To where, their thought went to "everything is destined to die, and so everyone is destined to suffer. The only way to remove the suffering, is to kill everything" (mirroring the conclusions of the dead civilizations, which were conclusions born from the same source of emotional distress) and from there, they harnessed the external energies of Dynamis that was then heavily infused with the sorrow of thousands, thousands of civilizations'. Dynamis is an energy affected by emotion, the Meteia harnessed it with a particular emotional drive and a particular motive in mind.

The raw, conscious emotions affect entelechies (the flower turning black with Hermes and you), dynamis is just an energy that's a blank slate until someone harnesses it with their own emotions (be it Sorrow, as seen from the Meteia, or Conviction, as seen when you LB3, or a mixture of Desperation, Conviction and Will -- like when Elidibus LB1/2/3/4's. Dynamis isn't /always/ sorrow).

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That all sounds like something that shouldn't have been introduced in the second to last zone, lol.