Death unto Dawn page up

The trusts COULD use a second tank and I think fordola fought with a sword/shield in SB? Though I'm not neccisarily expecting one, might be nice to have another option. Afterall we didn'tt need two healers but got two of those. I'd love to have Fordola along, though I'm trying not to get my hopes up. But I did wonder back in SB if she was a sort of Celes analog. Enemy commander empowered by magitek and becoming one of the heroes. Though that's a bit of a stretch maybe, and by the time we met Celes in VI she had already turned against the empire.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

The trusts COULD use a second tank and I think fordola fought with a sword/shield in SB? Though I'm not neccisarily expecting one, might be nice to have another option. Afterall we didn'tt need two healers but got two of those. I'd love to have Fordola along, though I'm trying not to get my hopes up. But I did wonder back in SB if she was a sort of Celes analog. Enemy commander empowered by magitek and becoming one of the heroes. Though that's a bit of a stretch maybe, and by the time we met Celes in VI she had already turned against the empire.

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Fordola was Lyse's foil for Stormblood, as both were part of the new generation of Ala Mhigian people struggling with circumstances of their country. The driving difference was Fordola took the indoctrination of the Empire and Lyse followed her heritage of fighting against tyranny. Lyse choosing to not execute Fordola as traitor was her character's turning point because she saw the similarity between her and Fordola and choose a new path for herself and her country.

Here's something to also think about: all of 4.0 was narrated by Lyse. It was like she was writing a personal letter to someone telling them the story of how the liberation was won. We could easily argue that she was telling this to Yda or Papalymo, who were no longer there. By the time you return from Doma find more about the history of Lyse's father, maybe it is to him. But since the "intended audience" is really unknown, she could be justifying everything to Fordola, after the fact. Fordola, unlike the others, is there to hear the story and also would be worth justifying your actions to if you were Lyse.

Maybe, that seems like a bit of a stretch to me, but I'd need to go back and listen to her narration again.

I do think it'd be interesting to see Fordola and Zenos in another scene together since she was working under him in 4.0. So long as it doesn't just end with him just killing her or something.

Kind of hope the mysterious person they allude to is someone other than Fordola. I like her character but with Endwalker being the end of the story arc i’d rather pair together with someone who has more stakes in the overall story and suits it more. She just seems like a random choice and if they decide to bring either her or Arenvald back just to kill one of them off, that’s really shallow and lazy imo.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

The trusts COULD use a second tank and I think fordola fought with a sword/shield in SB? Though I'm not neccisarily expecting one, might be nice to have another option. Afterall we didn'tt need two healers but got two of those. I'd love to have Fordola along, though I'm trying not to get my hopes up. But I did wonder back in SB if she was a sort of Celes analog. Enemy commander empowered by magitek and becoming one of the heroes. Though that's a bit of a stretch maybe, and by the time we met Celes in VI she had already turned against the empire.

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I agree. I wouldn't mind Arenvald either, but I like the fact that Fordola brings a slightly grittier perspective to bear on things.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Kind of hope the mysterious person they allude to is someone other than Fordola. I like her character but with Endwalker being the end of the story arc i’d rather pair together with someone who has more stakes in the overall story and suits it more. She just seems like a random choice and if they decide to bring either her or Arenvald back just to kill one of them off, that’s really shallow and lazy imo.

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Idk, Endwalker is the potential end of the world so the stakes are high no matter who is involved. She is also in the unique position of having seen the WOL's memories and will have a different perspective on being a hero--one that will conflict with the rest of the scions (the 5.5 trailer has her at odds with Alphinaud or Estinien). She also has the resonant which has awoken the fragment of her ancient self (and much like Zenos), and if she is going to be important to the plot going forward, will be someone from the Ancients who is important.

I guess my point is using Fordola isn't shallow or lazy and Arenvald's death would only make her gritter.

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Originally Posted by Kesey

Idk, Endwalker is the potential end of the world so the stakes are high no matter who is involved. She is also in the unique position of having seen the WOL's memories and will have a different perspective on being a hero--one that will conflict with the rest of the scions (the 5.5 trailer has her at odds with Alphinaud or Estinien). She also has the resonant which has awoken the fragment of her ancient self (and much like Zenos), and if she is going to be important to the plot going forward, will be someone from the Ancients who is important.

I guess my point is using Fordola isn't shallow or lazy and Arenvald's death would only make her gritter.

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The shallow and lazy was towards them bringing either one of them back just to kill one of them whether it be fordola or arenvald. Both have the potential for character development, and killing them off in the same patch they’re finally reintroduced is lazy.

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Originally Posted by RicaRuin

Just watch them add no oversoul at all because they described it as a capture mission and we may be dealing with it before oversoul is actually activated...

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In the trailer some transformation happens, its shoulder armor breaks off completely, and the body starts to undergo an unstable mutation. Maybe it won't go all of the way, because Cid's been trying to reverse engineer a way to stop it, though.

I'd like to hope we do actually rescue the pilot of one of the weapons for once.

Considering that we're even fighting it in the first place, it means that either the Oversoul is already active or the thing is autonomous because I don't think Allie or Alphonse would willfully threaten Werlyt.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

The shallow and lazy was towards them bringing either one of them back just to kill one of them whether it be fordola or arenvald. Both have the potential for character development, and killing them off in the same patch they’re finally reintroduced is lazy.

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Heard you the first time. Or are we going to repeat our points ad nauseum?

They're changing the Summoner level 80 quest. Is a certain NPC that appeared in that quest going to be killed in 5.5, making the change necessary?

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Originally Posted by Yuella

They're changing the Summoner level 80 quest. Is a certain NPC that appeared in that quest going to be killed in 5.5, making the change necessary?

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They're not going to retroactively change the story of job quests. The 5.5 MSQ takes place after any Shadowbringers 5.0 job quests.

But I do wonder what they will change. A simple dialogue change wouldn't require to abandon and accept the question again if it was in the Questlog already.

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Originally Posted by RicaRuin

But I do wonder what they will change. A simple dialogue change wouldn't require to abandon and accept the question again if it was in the Questlog already.

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Despite doing that quest twice now, I can't remember exactly how it goes.

Doesn't it start with Y'mhitra sending you to talk to that Lalafell Summoner, who then sends you to try and find Arenvald and Fordola? Arenvald fills you in and is an NPC that appears and talks to you, right? My guess would be, they're changing it, because it would be the only example of a quest line that runs concurrent with with them removing an NPC from a location in game, I think? Because isn't Arenvald always idle in Rhalgr's Reach if you go there, to where him and the Miqotes stand?

Maybe I'm brainfarting, but I imagine that might be why. If he's not going to be on location, then you have to restart the quest, because the old quest prompt can only be fulfilled by him at that location. So, if it confirms anything, it's a location change for Arenvald?

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Despite doing that quest twice now, I can't remember exactly how it goes.

Doesn't it start with Y'mhitra sending you to talk to that Lalafell Summoner, who then sends you to try and find Arenvald and Fordola? Arenvald fills you in and is an NPC that appears and talks to you, right? My guess would be, they're changing it, because it would be the only example of a quest line that runs concurrent with with them removing an NPC from a location in game, I think? Because isn't Arenvald always idle in Rhalgr's Reach if you go there, to where him and the Miqotes stand?

Maybe I'm brainfarting, but I imagine that might be why. If he's not going to be on location, then you have to restart the quest, because the old quest prompt can only be fulfilled by him at that location. So, if it confirms anything, it's a location change for Arenvald?

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You also go and visit Fordola in the prison they could be changing her location since she should be with the summoner squads... I say summoner squads but I should say primal fighting squads since she can't be tempered and that's why she was let out and collard to begin with.

Also remember they can't give a definite time frame for that level 80 quest (time bubble shenanigans) so for them to change it because you think one of those two die is highly unlikely. For those of you who were here at the time remember the whole conundrum that happened at the end of 2.0 with Nanamo and the Culinarian quest for those who did it after The parting glass and before she "woke up".

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Originally Posted by Kesey

Heard you the first time. Or are we going to repeat our points ad nauseum?

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Well you had said “using fordola isn’t shallow or lazy” so wanted to make sure you understood my point because that wasn’t anywhere near what i had said lmao

If they're rewriting the Level 80 Summoner quest to account for Fordola no longer being imprisoned and Arenvald no longer being in Ala Mhigo, then I suppose their plot armor has a decent chance of being gone now. Which, well, I'm not too happy about, lol. I'd prefer if at least one villain/antagonist got to atone for their actions without dying in the process. And Arenvald is just... he's the third youngest Scion, right after Alisaie and Alphinaud. The man's actually got his whole life ahead of him, and it'd be a shame to cut that short and give him the Papalymo treatment.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

If they're rewriting the Level 80 Summoner quest to account for Fordola no longer being imprisoned and Arenvald no longer being in Ala Mhigo, then I suppose their plot armor has a decent chance of being gone now. Which, well, I'm not too happy about, lol. I'd prefer if at least one villain/antagonist got to atone for their actions without dying in the process. And Arenvald is just... he's the third youngest Scion, right after Alisaie and Alphinaud. The man's actually got his whole life ahead of him, and it'd be a shame to cut that short and give him the Papalymo treatment.

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I agree. While i greatly dislike the idea though, i could definitely see them do it. They seem to not want to kill of any characters the fan base is sensitive about because they don’t want to crush their feels so they resort to killing off side-lined characters who still have a lot of room to grow. I hope it’s just a red herring and maybe it’s something simple but them not showing Arenvald in the trailer is concerning(unless it’s because of some wardrobe change lol).

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Originally Posted by Rannie

Also remember they can't give a definite time frame for that level 80 quest (time bubble shenanigans) so for them to change it because you think one of those two die is highly unlikely. For those of you who were here at the time remember the whole conundrum that happened at the end of 2.0 with Nanamo and the Culinarian quest for those who did it after The parting glass and before she "woke up".

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Isn't this quest time bubbled to "after 5.0"? You can't take the level 80 job quests until you've completed the quest Shadowbringers. So it definitely happens between 5.0 and the end of 5.4 (with whatever the changed version is being between 5.0 and the end of 5.5 instead). These quests usually mention the First in some way, too.

If they were to remove or replace one of the characters in the quest for this patch, it doesn't remove the possibility of something happening to either of them in 5.5, nor would it discount the experience of the players who'd played it prior to 5.5. There'd be no scenarios in which a death/injury would be paradoxical.

I'm not saying this will happen, mind - just that it doesn't discount it. It could be as simple as a line of dialogue changing!

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Originally Posted by Turethir

Isn't this quest time bubbled to "after 5.0"? You can't take the level 80 job quests until you've completed the quest Shadowbringers. So it definitely happens between 5.0 and the end of 5.4 (with whatever the changed version is being between 5.0 and the end of 5.5 instead). These quests usually mention the First in some way, too.

If they were to remove or replace one of the characters in the quest for this patch, it doesn't remove the possibility of something happening to either of them in 5.5, nor would it discount the experience of the players who'd played it prior to 5.5. There'd be no scenarios in which a death/injury would be paradoxical.

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Right but how long after end of 5.0 and if someone does it AFTER 5.5 and one of them does get killed. You then have people again scratching their heads saying WTF is going on again ALA The Parting Glass and Nanamo's supposed death Via poisoning and if she had REMAINED dead and her being a part of the Level 50 CUL class.

What I was getting at is they still have to keep when that level 80 quest happens Vague during the time bubble to not cause the Shenanigans or another wtf is going on with Estinien as the Dragoon job classes leveling them after heavensward and Nidhogg's (as well as his eyes) complete defeat.

If one of them were to die in 5.5, I'd imagine the change they're making would be to either remove that character from the quest or replace them with somebody else, therefore creating no paradoxes even if that happens (hence it wouldn't matter if they did it after 5.5 - it wouldn't contain any characters who'd died). It just depends on what they're doing, and as we have no info on that at the moment it's hard to know :(

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Originally Posted by Turethir

If one of them were to die in 5.5, I'd imagine the change they're making would be to either remove that character from the quest or replace them with somebody else, therefore creating no paradoxes even if that happens (hence it wouldn't matter if they did it after 5.5 - it wouldn't contain any characters who'd died). It just depends on what they're doing, and as we have no info on that at the moment it's hard to know :(

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And that would change the entire story quest for level 80. When they do adjustments they do minor changes not complete changes that will change the entire story for it. We didn't go to Arenvald and Fordola during that quest for shiggles. The lalafel from the Immortal Flames Summoner Squad came to us specifically to ask us if we could find out why they were fighting as they were. Arenvald (a man born from an Ala mhigan woman who was raped by a Garlean, echo user, and Scion of the Seventh dawn) fighting of his own free will and Fordola (prisoner of war, traitor to her country, and science experiment whos echo is out of control) conscripted and forced to wear a shock collar to fight because she's useful.

I've been meaning to get around to doing the level 80 smn quest but now I think I'll just watch it on youtube and then do it after the patch to see what the difference is .

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

If they're rewriting the Level 80 Summoner quest to account for Fordola no longer being imprisoned and Arenvald no longer being in Ala Mhigo, then I suppose their plot armor has a decent chance of being gone now. Which, well, I'm not too happy about, lol. I'd prefer if at least one villain/antagonist got to atone for their actions without dying in the process. And Arenvald is just... he's the third youngest Scion, right after Alisaie and Alphinaud. The man's actually got his whole life ahead of him, and it'd be a shame to cut that short and give him the Papalymo treatment.

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I agree - I think they're better suited as characters to add some progression onto.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

I agree - I think they're better suited as characters to add some progression onto.

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Perhaps upgrading them to our new traveling companions for 6.1 on?

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Well you had said “using fordola isn’t shallow or lazy” so wanted to make sure you understood my point because that wasn’t anywhere near what i had said lmao

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My post was a counter argument to your post. Then you countered to reiterate what you said before. I wouldn't have written my counter post if I didn't understand your first post.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Perhaps upgrading them to our new traveling companions for 6.1 on?

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That, and trusts possibly as well. The more selection on that front, the better.

There's a lot of ways in which to solve the 'problem' that is older quests not reflecting the current state of the world. They could be made mandatory, they could be adjusted...or the development team could just consider developed during a particular expansion to have happened in that expansion.

I do not believe that characters should be safe just because they happen to be tied to specific quests that, canonically, took place in the past. It leads to things becoming stale, predictable and if they're ever in danger it's a safe bet that they're not actually going to suffer any meaningful consequences.

It'd also benefit the writers to avoid pandering too much to the crowd who overinvest in specific characters. I like Arenvald, if he dies then that sucks but he isn't real and I'll move on with my life. The majority of characters I like in this game have been killed off already - I'm still playing, though. I find new characters I like and that's much easier to do when the cast isn't so bloated and stale.

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Originally Posted by Turethir

If one of them were to die in 5.5, I'd imagine the change they're making would be to either remove that character from the quest or replace them with somebody else, therefore creating no paradoxes even if that happens (hence it wouldn't matter if they did it after 5.5 - it wouldn't contain any characters who'd died). It just depends on what they're doing, and as we have no info on that at the moment it's hard to know :(

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This is most likely what will come to pass. The quest, although Arenvald and Fordola are taking most of the spotlight, is really about the summoners fighting the continued primal threat in Eoreza. A character from an earlier summoner quest can fill you in and you can move on to the end of the quest without Fordola or Arenvald.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

There's a lot of ways in which to solve the 'problem' that is older quests not reflecting the current state of the world. They could be made mandatory, they could be adjusted...or the development team could just consider developed during a particular expansion to have happened in that expansion.

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I hope that making CT mandatory was the first step towards something like this. While the Void Quests, for example, feel like too much to actually gate content behind them (because it's levelling one of each role to 80, which I don't think the average player is very keen on doing), if the friggin Dissidia phone game can put a disclaimer saying "depending on your progress, some characters may appear in cutscenes", then XIV could certainly put a warning that certain quests are meant to be completed before certain other MSQ quests.

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Originally Posted by Kesey

This is most likely what will come to pass. The quest, although Arenvald and Fordola are taking most of the spotlight, is really about the summoners fighting the continued primal threat in Eoreza. A character from an earlier summoner quest can fill you in and you can move on to the end of the quest without Fordola or Arenvald.

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That's not all the level 80 Summoner questline is about, though. Broadly, it's about why you fight against Primals time and again, and the same question is asked for the members of the anti-Primal squad. Specifically, it's about the nature of the Echo preventing tempering, and whether that means an Echo-blessed is obligated to fight Primals.

So to replace Arenvald and Fordola, they'd have to find at least one other Echo-blessed young (and it has to be young, since Jajasamu talks about how he feels ashamed of hiding behind his egi while younger adventurers are charging into the fray) adventurer in the anti-Primal squad.

Personally I think the change is mostly to update where Arenvald is going to be. Jajasamu points you to Rhalgr's Reach to talk to Arenvald, who can get you into the cells at Ala Mhigo to talk to Fordola. If their locations are changed, that means updating, especially if Fordola is let out from her cell. Having the 80 SMN questline put Fordola back in her cell would feel odd.

I wouldn't think about it. Remember, you can be in Shadowbringers but still have Urianger back in the Waking Sands to give you the quests for the ARR EX primals.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

I wouldn't think about it. Remember, you can be in Shadowbringers but still have Urianger back in the Waking Sands to give you the quests for the ARR EX primals.

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Man, did they really never update that, at all? Then again, I suppose those sidequests where you're supposed to be gaining extra allies for Operation Archon are always still in the Waking Sands too, if you never do them, lol.

Honestly, I do agree that it's probably just the movement of an NPC! I don't want people to get the wrong impression - I'm not a fan of character death so I am not "hoping" for that to happen. But I don't think it's beyond the devs, if they needed to, to change a quest to avoid paradoxes. Not long until we find out!

MSQ Part 1 is only six quests, so it'll be interesting to see how they work up to a climactic ending in that time.

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Originally Posted by Turethir

Honestly, I do agree that it's probably just the movement of an NPC! I don't want people to get the wrong impression - I'm not a fan of character death so I am not "hoping" for that to happen. But I don't think it's beyond the devs, if they needed to, to change a quest to avoid paradoxes. Not long until we find out!

MSQ Part 1 is only six quests, so it'll be interesting to see how they work up to a climactic ending in that time.

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To be fairrrr 6 quests is quite a lot especially if a lot of them are cutscene heavy. I’m expecting a lot of “put aside some time for the next cutscenes” lol

X.5 is always split up into X.5 and X.55, with the whole story being split apart them and the latter half feeling very short.

I suppose after an expansion's worth of long patches (even 5.4 was very long, despite little of it advancing the myth arc) a short patch is to be expected, especially with all the other plotlines that need to be wrapped up and considering this is just the prologue to Endwalker.

I know it's petty, and something that's lost to most player's, since it was optional dialogue that never comes up again between quests, but... Arenvald was supposed to get a task directly from Minfilia just before the assault on the Waking Sands that killed all of the old side Scions that we mostly never got to know.

What was that duty?

Well, he was supposed to become the bodyguard for Noraxia, the Sylph that dies defending Minfilia.

When he comes back in Stormblood his optional between quest dialogue is, "For a long time I struggled to make sense of that day at the Waking Sands. Why I survived and Aule and A'auba didn't. Not any more."

The reason he survived is clear... he wasn't doing his job for some reason. He wasn't with Noraxia. I don't hate him for it, but it makes me wonder. Was he out taking a bathroom break or something? Why wasn't he where he was supposed to be?

It makes me feel like he has bad karma coming his way.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

The reason he survived is clear... he wasn't doing his job for some reason. He wasn't with Noraxia. I don't hate him for it, but it makes me wonder. Was he out taking a bathroom break or something? Why wasn't he where he was supposed to be?

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IIRC A'aba Tia and one other fodder Scions died so that Arenvald could escape.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

I know it's petty, and something that's lost to most player's, since it was optional dialogue that never comes up again between quests, but... Arenvald was supposed to get a task directly from Minfilia just before the assault on the Waking Sands that killed all of the old side Scions that we mostly never got to know.

What was that duty?

Well, he was supposed to become the bodyguard for Noraxia, the Sylph that dies defending Minfilia.

When he comes back in Stormblood his optional between quest dialogue is, "For a long time I struggled to make sense of that day at the Waking Sands. Why I survived and Aule and A'auba didn't. Not any more."

The reason he survived is clear... he wasn't doing his job for some reason. He wasn't with Noraxia. I don't hate him for it, but it makes me wonder. Was he out taking a bathroom break or something? Why wasn't he where he was supposed to be?

It makes me feel like he has bad karma coming his way.

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He was doing his job. It was that the other two scions stayed to let him escape. Idk why that would give him “bad karma” lol

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

He was doing his job. It was that the other two scions stayed to let him escape. Idk why that would give him “bad karma” lol

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He wasn't with Noraxia at all though, hence not doing his job.