Mog mail is not an optimal choice. There's a limit to the amount of letters that you can have. If it's full you're done.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyvid
It's better if they just use the pop-ups that they already use for achievements and all the other stuff. It just has to check your timers, same way as it checks your achievements.
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09-23-2018, 02:30 AMYshnal
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09-23-2018, 05:18 AMR-Pete-GSo, this where I think that over-simplifying things can make it appear more black-and-white than it is. That argument - and, seemingly Squenix's approach - doesn't account for pretty normal human behaviour. You're also (unintentionally, I assume) missing out some key facts in how these things were introduced.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jojoya
In my case, I would have completed those initial 3 housing ward quests nearly five years ago (December 2013). And yes, those quests point you to the resident caretaker - who wouldn't have had any information about auto demolition, because that wasn't introduced until nearly two years later (October 2015). So let's just say for argument's sake that I read every single word of those quests, and everything the resident caretaker had to say when I did them. Would I have known about auto demolition? Nope.
Now, I can't tell you what might have happened when the patch introducing auto demolition came out. I've taken breaks from FFXIV over time, so I might not have been playing or read patch notes. If I had, it's also quite possible I'd have skipped the section on "Housing" because I didn't have one. Neither of those things are unreasonable behaviours.
When Kugane was released, we all had a new quest to introduce us to the housing ward. And when that quest (I assume, I don't recall) points us to the Resident Caretaker - how many players can honestly say that they didn't, whether they were right or wrong in their assumption, think "I know how this works" and give him a miss this time? That is not an unreasonable human behaviour either.
You don't have to be wilfully ignorant, blissfully careless or even downright stupid. All it takes is to be a bit human, to not have played constantly without breaks since 2.1, and it's not at all unreasonable to miss this, along with any number of other features. The point here is that it the game doesn't highlight auto demolition at the most appropriate time, and that's when you buy a house. It's assuming you've read, or retained, a piece of knowledge from up to three years previously, that probably wasn't relevant to you at the time, if you were even actively playing. To bemoan the idea that any more than this (bearing in mind that adding an Active Help popup at the point of sale is the minimum most of us have advocated here) is somehow "hand holding" is hyperbole at a mindbogglingly blinkered level. -
09-23-2018, 10:40 AMSkivvyI didn't "selectively edit" anything. I literally ran my level 1 alt out to the Mist, as I said I did in the beginning of my post. I got that pop up upon entering, which I posted. Then the "Active Help" menu came up for housing, which I posted all pictures of. Then I went to the resident caretaker as I was told to do. Finding out about the housing timer is 3 menus in. Are you really wanting me to go back and take screenshots of the sections that had nothing to do with the housing timer?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jojoya
Try and claim whatever you wish, but I do not make it a habit to intentionally try and lead people astray by being sneaky and editing things in a way to defend my stance. I also was very upfront about the fact I did not do the quest as I'm far too lazy to level a character to level 5, but I did provide a video link of someone doing that very quest. I also summed up the video saying that they basically tell you to just go talk to the Resident Caretaker.
If I missed something, then I would love for you to actually tell me what as I do not believe I left anything out. Go to the residence caretaker yourself if you wish. To get to the housing demo timer information, you will need to go Housing Inquiries > Land Ownership > What happens if I abandon my estate. -
09-23-2018, 09:17 PMAlleoThe quest that you do at such a low level that you are still far away from owning a house. So if someone new still went to the resident caretaker they probably would have stopped reading after seeing that they are far away from owning a house. Honestly newer players already got enough informations to understand when they start the game, housing would probably be quite away from being interesting at that point. And after that it might be simply too long ago to remember it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jojoya
So what exactly would be wrong if SE puts the information directly in the help window? Or directly as a line at the caretaker instead of being behind something that makes it read like its only about giving up th plot yourself? What would it hurt you if they created a bit more information and show this information clear when you buy the house for the plot, maybe including the 35 days to reclaim items? What would be the problem? -
09-23-2018, 11:02 PMHamadaSorry for quoting myself but after seeing this post:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamada
I really need to question what is going on with SE's ability to give any kind of customer service here and inform people in general. Why hide the timer in game in menu hell? Why is there no notice at all for furnishing recovery? In any other form of business I know of, this will not fly. So how come SE is able get away with it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Skivvy
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09-23-2018, 11:17 PMSkivvyTo be fair, they do mention the furnishing retrieval when speaking with the caretaker. On the first menu, there is an option of "Estate Possession Retrieval", but all it tells you is that should the property go away, they will hold your items for a limited time (does not state how long at this time). To find out how long you have, you then have to go to Housing Inquiries > Land Ownership > What happens if I abandon my estate (same spot the housing timer is disclosed).Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamada
So yeah, it's there...but again buried 3 menu selections deep. On that very first menu choice (Estate Possession Retrievel), they could have easily stated you have 35 days to pick up items. Instead they opted to be vague and just say "limited time" and make you hunt for more. -
09-23-2018, 11:39 PMJojoyaAgreed. The information should be shared when a player first becomes eligible to purchase and not weeks or months in advance of that date.Quote:
Originally Posted by R-Pete-G
Or did you miss where I said they should change when the quest becomes available?
I can't speak for what things were like 5 years ago but I know what they're like now. When SE makes a change that's going to impact how players use content already existing, they put an announcement in the launcher. It's not SE's fault if the player chooses not to click the announcement to read the information.
It still doesn't change my feelings about personal accountability. Yes, we're human. As humans, the lessons we learn the best are the ones we learn when we make mistakes. If we're constantly passing responsibility for things that affect us personally onto others (be it another person or a company), we're not learning anything other than how to avoid responsibility for the choices we make.
If it means losing a house in a game because the player couldn't be bothered to enter that house once every 6 weeks to learn to start taking responsibility, I'm all for it. Better to lose something in a game and learn from it if it means we've learned not to repeat similar mistakes in real life and lose things of real value.
Of course you selectively edited it. Look at all the screenshots you included.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skivvy
Did you include screenshots of the quest text? Nope.
Did you provide screenshots of the NPC telling you that you should go speak to the Resident Caretaker to get more information about purchasing land? Nope.
Did you include screenshots of the 6 or 7 pages of informational messages that appear after you click on the "What happens if I abandon my house" option? Nope.
You limited the screenshots to the ones that support your position. You made it look like SE provides less information than they actually do and that the player will only find the information even exists if they randomly stumble across it instead of showing that the quest actually directs you where to go to get it.
Again, agreed it's presented to the player at the wrong level.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alleo
SE can add additional information to the Active Help windows all they want and players still won't read through it anymore than they currently do. SE can make the demo timer visible all the time and it still won't help because player will continue to ignore it just as they continue to ignore it when it does appear with 15 days left before demo. Players will still complain that SE didn't do enough to keep them from losing their house. So what would be the point of SE wasting developer time on making those changes if the net outcome will remain the game?
All of this would be a moot point if people simply entered their houses on a regular basis as SE intends. If SE didn't intend for players to be using their houses, then demolition would be tied to subscription instead of house entry.
Is it genuinely that difficult for players to take 2 minutes to walk into their house once every 3 to 4 weeks if they value their house ownership that much? If so, I have to wonder how they managed to level high enough to be eligible to own a house in the first place.
Blame it on being human all you want but being human also means paying for the mistakes you make. -
09-24-2018, 12:10 AMSkivvyThe point of my screenshot journey was to show how far a player has to hunt in order to find the actual details regarding the housing timer. I showed exactly where you find the information, and stated the heading of the menu choice where it's found. There is absolutely no reason to include the actual dialogue as that was not the point of the comment, as we all know that bit already. Again, to clarify for you, the point was to show the steps a player has to take to find the actual information. There was no reason for me to post the dialogue in that post. If you cannot understand this distinction, the issue lies with your reading comprehension and not me 'selectively editing' things to fit my story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jojoya
Also, how am I supposed to post screenshots for a quest that I do not have access to? Please, enlighten me. I did clearly state in that first screenshot post that there is a quest, but that my screenshots did not involve that. However, TWO WHOLE COMMENTS LATER, I was able to find a video of someone running that quest, and I stated that the quest also just refers you to the Resident Caretaker. I know this is a big thread, but reading two whole comments below is really not hard.
If you are going to try and claim I'm not presenting the full picture, perhaps you should take a look into more than just a single comment that I've posted in this thread. I'd even suggest you read the whole thread so that you can really get a grasp of what the conversation is about, and where it's currently at. Refusing to do anything more than that would make it seem like you are the one who is selectively choosing your information in order to try and prove a point. -
09-24-2018, 01:05 AMPentheaAnd what about the accountability of SE, the company that creates the content? Should they not also receive criticism for for not being clear on the housing system?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jojoya
It's all well and good to say read the text in the game but many people like OP, myself included, completed the quests to go into the residential districts before the demolition mechanic even existed. Surely it would have made more sense for SE to provide a new quest to direct players to housing information again? And what about the timing of the quests? What does housing mean to a sprout who has barely started playing the game? Not much at all given you can't even meet the requirements to purchase any form of housing until you're lvl 50 and have the second lieutenant gc rank. The quest that takes you to the residential districts should be given to you when you meet the basic requirements to purchase a plot. Not when you have done less than half a day's worth of playtime. It's simply stupid that SE chose to give information about content to players when they can't interact with it at all for at least another 40 lvls.
Yea there is a npc who has information about demolition but it's right at the bottom of the list under the title "What happens if I abandon my estate?" which doesn't adequately highlight the importance of it, as it could imply a player has to initiate demolition by themselves. It should instead say something like "What is auto-demolition?" as that title on its own shows that something can be automatically destroyed.
Then there's the fact that the demolition timer is hidden for most of its duration so a person can't even find out about it by accident while exploring the timers window unless they happen to do so when the house is due to be destroyed within 15 days.
And what of the sheer lack of information in the Lodestone? The links that take you directly to housing are not only hidden away at the bottom of the homepage but also in a deliberately smaller link in another page among other content guides. Furthermore they only mention demolition and don't explain what it is. Doing a search for demolition or housing gives you an incredible amount of irrelevant results. You would have to know the specific patches relating to demolition to find the few relevant results and well someone new or who took breaks at certain points of the game would not know the names of these patches.
I found out about demolition by accident. I wanted to know if there was a mechanic that created more wards because at the time all wards on my server were full, so I did some googling and found out about it in a third party source. Had there been a plot available for me to buy I would have bought it and not bothered to google housing at all. Like most players I prefer to explore content myself and I'm sure OP is one of these people too.
The argument for personal accountability isn't really valid considering SE do a superb job of making information about demolition difficult to find in the game and the Lodestone. It would only be valid if SE actually did a decent job of making it very easy to find. Then you could say "well SE have been super clear about demolition, the rest was up to you" but sadly this is not the case. -
09-24-2018, 04:03 AMHamadaThat is a huge problem with all of this, some players (as in completely defending SE) and SE themselves show no accountability. Most businesses that are able to see fault and how the consumer got the short end of the stick would give reimbursement. I mean I just do not get it, how hard is it to give players better notice about losing items and not hide it in menu hell? Or better yet, why have item deletion in the first place? not like holding some data costs a lot. You would think better outlook for the game in general and having better systems means more money since that leads to people talking more positively of the game, not reading left and right how people get screwed over and how you need to walk on eggshells while playing this game so you do not lose anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Penthea
Look what happened when 4.0 launched, most businesses would give something back to the community for that, not just "sorry for waiting 1-3 hours to log in" -
09-24-2018, 07:47 AMko_
The personal account topic I think is a legit one for half of the blame, I'm not goign to say SE is 100% at fault cause I still believe in this case there's alot of things he could've done to prevent this. Yeah SE ui is a bit of a mess, but that's where SE's fault ends. The person in this case had over 1860 days to learn search and accept the system alot of ways. Lodestone - as messy as it is- DID have patchnotes he could've read to get himself up to date- and google. So that's why I say it's 50/50. But that's my presonal opinion on THAT part of the topic. I'd put all the information about this stuff in a tab and force feed the player if I was SE to make sure there's no excuse to miss it.. and if you do that's on you 100%. SE can't count for lazy, or whatnot, but I think SE thinks too highly of people also. Cause the way they put that info from what I saw ingame means they believe people aren't as lazy and expect them to dig for the info. In this case SE is wrong cause people ARE that lazy. So SE make it moron proof.
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09-25-2018, 07:56 AMR-Pete-GExcept there are other possibilities beyond choosing not to click the announcement and reading the information. If you're not actively playing at the time, you can miss it. Relying on a player being active 100% of the time, so they are around to read every announcement to prepare them for a feature they may use 3 years later, is still not even remotely adequate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jojoya
Except in real life, as a society and as individuals, we normally respect one another enough to ensure that mistakes happen as infrequently as possible. We aim to help one another, and ourselves, learn without mistakes. It's why we teach people things, educate, have signs and information made clear in so many aspects of life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jojoya
Is housing in a game more trivial? Perhaps. But as we've highlighted time and time again, what we're arguing here is that Squenix has absolutely no problem warning us against losing in-game content far more trivial than housing or furnishings. Which leads onto your following point:
The existing Active Help windows (for pretty much everything else even remotely similar to this) set a precedent for players that they will continue to be warned in similar situations. It sets a level of expectation that something will be communicated to you. Would some players ignore them? Yes. Can you make it foolproof? No.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jojoya
But, as we've seen just from players in this thread, those of us who do read the Active Help popups wouldn't have ignored them if they existed. That's a point, right there. There still seems to be this very black-and-white conversation about accountability. It's a lot harder for someone to be accountable if they're not aware of their accountability. And despite continued disbelief, we've already covered multiple well-presented, logically sound situations in which a player might currently miss this feature without being careless or lazy. Dismissing that possibility based on "I don't believe it"? That's a pretty lazy argument in itself.
It's not really for you to make judgements or assumptions about how difficult it may well be for a player to do that, especially given all of the extenuating circumstances we've discussed in this thread, and even more so if that player doesn't realise it's necessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jojoya
But it's good that you basically agree with most of the constructive points that most of us have been trying to make. I don't think anyone is trying to shirk accountability, rather that Squenix have a responsibility to inform us of our accountability better - most seem to agree - than they are.
We are also on page 38 of a thread where the main criticism seems to be that I didn't read enough, and yet we're still going back and forth on housing demolition when the main point was furnishing reclamation / deletion... -
09-25-2018, 03:05 PMko_It's your title sadly. When people see your time like that most people are going to ask the questions me and a few others all over the thread have asked. It sucks you can't change it but you're going to get replies like this as long as this thread is opened cause of your title and how widespread housing issues were in the past 3 years. It sucks but thats why it keeps coming back to that.Quote:
Originally Posted by R-Pete-G
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09-25-2018, 03:45 PMKuzulo
The problem, with this thread, is that a lot of people are saying that the OP should have known they had to keep logging in, etc:
That is not the issue.
The issue is that there is no reason the OP, or anyone, should lose the house they worked for.
I'm amazed that housing in FFXIV is done this way, in 2018; In other modern MMORPGS, like ESO, a house is a "virtual space." So there is nothing in place to clear out a house/plot so that another person can then buy it.
Why would they do such a thing, if they want to retain subscribers?
Years ago, Wow and other MMORPGS learned that you don't mess with someone's account/characters because you want them to both REMAIN subscribed, as well as RETURN as a subscriber. There was talk (briefly, at one time), of deleting characters under level 10 (or something) after X amount of time had passed. As you might guess, many such characters in Wow would be "bank alts." So they wisely decided against doing this, since the space they'd save in character files would not be worth offending a possibly "returning" customer.
Not only am I amazed at this "feature", I'm amazed that people are not taking the original poster's side. -
09-26-2018, 12:20 AMR-Pete-GThe thing is, I don't even strictly agree with that statement, for housing. We know that the system Squenix implemented is limited, creates scarcity of estates for players, and thus restricts everyone from having access to this feature. I support a system that tries to support this as fairly as possible. But I agree with the statement 100% for furnishings, because these have no scarcity whatsoever, and losing them does not have any net benefit for the wider community as a tradeoff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuzulo
Criticisms of how housing exists in FFXIV aside, as you rightly point out it's not the norm at all. It's a departure from how other modern MMOs implement instanced housing. Even requiring not just an active subscription, but a specific in-game action, will be unfamiliar to many MMO players. That continues to make the case for more in-game communication, clearer messaging at more relevant gameplay moments, etc.
Persistent housing with limited quantities is the housing system we've got, and I don't see that changing easily. In the interests of fairness, I think some kind of inactivity demolition needs to exist - but fairness is a test it doesn't currently seem to pass. In addition to the communication issues we've gone over, Squenix don't seem interested (AFAIK, though I am a bit out of the loop as we know) in trying to push players who have held onto multiple estates - from when this was possible on the same account - to be in line with the rest of us. There are a lot of estates to free up that way, I imagine. -
09-26-2018, 11:38 AMPentheaI suspect that this is because they don't want to make characters become homeless. SE have said they will introduce a feature that lets all characters on the same sever have access to the same private home but there hasn't been a date set for it. Probably 5.0 at the earliest. Hopefully then SE will have enough backbone to remove excess houses from players who have more than the current limit. Of course they should also refund the gil for the plots taken away from them.Quote:
Originally Posted by R-Pete-G
Sadly though this still won't be a fix. The only real fix is instanced housing as that would benefit every server equally. As it is now the housing situation can radically differ from server to server, and in some cases (Balmung) no amount of improving the ward system will ever be enough.
Demolition is a necessary evil and inconvenience. As long as there are a limited amount of plots, there needs to be a system to weed out those who do not use theirs. However item deletion is not necessary at all. I totally understand removing ownership of a plot, but deleting furniture does literally zero to improve the housing situation. A demolished plot can make a new home owner happy but deleting the previous owner's furniture doesn't affect them. All it does is create exasperation and disappointment to those who owned the furniture. There is no reason why SE can't hold furniture indefinitely. The system for storage unaffected by time already exists. They just need to extend it to item reclamation. This would only improve the current situation.