It's more about the fact that you know immediately if a healer or tank isn't doing their job but a lousy DPS can take a lot more effort to unmask.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vstarstruck
When there are 4 DPS in particular, you'll have to watch ALL of them mid-fight and then check their gear one at a time as well.
Again, compare this to tanks and healers where it's infinitely easier to know who is causing wipes.
I started this thread because I was in disbelief at the hypocrisy of the community regarding how we treat both tanks and healers vs. how DPS are treated. It's sickeningly hypocritical that tanks and healers can be kicked after a single error (I've seen it happen) but DPS aren't subject to at least the same level of scrutiny for their performance.
But more and more, I've realized that the whole parser debate is a symptom of the true problem, and that is that XIV does a horrendous job of teaching DPS players how to play their classes effectively.
This wouldn't be THAT bad, except for the fact that the game features DPS checks in content that is far from savage raiding.
When designing any game, the #1 priority is to teach the player how to play well enough early on that they are prepared for the challenges they'll face later in the game.
With DPS checks in the game, it should ABSOLUTELY be teaching players proper rotations for their class to ensure they're able to meet these DPS checks when they encounter them, but no such training or tutorials exist in game that do this.
The end result is that we get DPS players arriving at endgame with no clue if they're doing even marginally well at their class, as well as no guidance on how they might improve.
There should 100% be an NPC called the "Battlemaster" or something that the game directs you to upon reaching the level cap, where you learn the rotation of your abilities and how to be the best you can at it. Not that this forces the player to BE the best before they can complete the quest, but it would at least show them the path to how they can do so.
Some part of me wants to slap together a video tutorial for some DPS classes, but aside from not having the time, it wouldn't change anything because we need something IN-GAME that teaches people...
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01-11-2018, 03:37 AMRichardButte
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01-11-2018, 04:34 AMVstarstruckThere is plenty out there already, but yes, as I told you a few times now I made a thread on this subject too (before you came back bumping things)Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardButte
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...able-to-use-DF.
Also smart people do not kick a healer for a single mistake, likewise can point out who is lacking severe DPS before checking gear. Sometimes in 8 or 24 man it can be easy to tell as well, they are laying on the floor for longer time then they spend attacking things. -
01-11-2018, 12:31 PMErryKHi, I'd like you to meet tooltips.Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardButte
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01-11-2018, 12:34 PMKrotoanI don't think they're saying the problem is the system or information is unavailable. It's that it's optional to read or participate in the content that teaches you HOW to play your job.Quote:
Originally Posted by ErryK
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01-11-2018, 12:41 PMErryKSo then the user is at fault.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krotoan
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01-11-2018, 01:01 PMKrotoanThe game currently doesn't really require or even encourage you to learn your job well until it's suddenly do or die. So it's partially people not wanting to engage and partially people just being blindsided by a sudden check where there hasn't been in all previous compulsory content. Mostly DPS though since tanking/healing requires you learn your job pretty quickly or fail.Quote:
Originally Posted by ErryK
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01-11-2018, 03:44 PMVstarstruckIn a way it is? it is common to see people take the route of least resistance and only put in effort that is needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by ErryK
So it is common for new players to think they are doing well enough because they cleared, no one says anything, or rarely rather, because experienced players are tired of hearing "you do not pay for my sub" So now we are having social problems in the game where players are not ready for content, and when too many are in one run it is just vote abandon and every ones time is wasted because this game is not presented properly to its target audience. So if the idea of making a game is based on ease of access, it needs some kind of teaching tool that will show people proper play.
FFXIV's target audience is not those few that take the time to research things, break damage formulas down, like FFXI was. You can't put FFXI hidden like information when you are not targeting that kind of audience. The current game just encourages bigger skill gaps and frustrations between those that know what to do and those that do not know what to do, because they do not know more effort needs to be put in then spamming the 1 key, level 1 though 69.
So you are given easy mode spam one button to clear to entering content that kills you for it, and people do not learn that quickly. The skill gap and difficultly gap is way to big going from 69 to 70 to endgame 70
Yup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krotoan
In the end of the day both development and the user base are both at fault. It is clear People are not going to go the extra mile and prepare for things any time soon, so it is up to development to put that in the game.
Is it part culture too? does the Japanese servers have problems with the average user being carried etc? Maybe the development team did not expect users of NA/EU? just one region? to act like this. I am really interested to know the frequency of each region of how often people try to ilevel bypass or enter content they are not ready for. Not having your level 70 ability in the last level 70 df? ilevel 300 to enter? no foul and a i285 weapon? why is this happening? shows you how willing people are motivated on their own to do better. -
01-11-2018, 05:22 PMTaleraRistain
This is never going to be fixed until SE decides to respect the roles in groups more. So long as there's a melding where everyone is expected to be dps, then there will be pressure on the non-dps roles to make up for the dps roles if they are lacking. If tanks had to focus on tanking and healers had to focus on healing because the content required those roles to perform their main abilities throughout the entire fight, then lower dps would definitely be noticeable. But then people couldn't have their mass pulling Expert speedruns. I think sometimes the community doesn't really know what it wants in this game.
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01-11-2018, 10:50 PMTridusI just got funny looks from people in my office, because as a software developer this is the most hilarious thing I've read in quite a while.Quote:
Originally Posted by ErryK
Here in UX design, you have a sizable percentage of users who won't read tooltips (especially with how long some of the ones in game are). Of the ones that do, another sizable percentage won't understand them because their literacy skills aren't that good (or they're not playing in their best language). Of the ones that do understand it, another sizable percentage won't able to figure out how that relates to using it in a rotation with anything else, and only a small number are going to be able to get anything even close to optimal out of just tooltips.
And of course, you still need a parser if you want to validate that you did all that correctly and actually came up with something optimal.
I've had people who deleted things and then asked for help asking how they deleted things where I had to explain they pushed the big button marked "Delete", twice, and on the second time ignored the big red text saying "this will permanently delete the permit". No amount of tooltips can fix that.
Tanks and healers get more immediate feedback because stuff either runs away and hits someone else, or someone dies. Things like the way skills light up in combos is helpful feedback as well, because it's very easy to understand: you probably want to hit the button that just started glowing (especially when doing so makes another button glow).
But when are you supposed to use Wildfire? The game doesn't help you with that all. Hell, I had to read Wildfire a few times to figure out what it actually does, because the way it's worded you can read it as deferring damage until later (rather than adding more later). It's pretty easy to miss the damage number on it when it does go off if it's mixed in with other damage numbers, so your average person can get this wrong very easily. Unless they have some way to measure how effective it is or already know how fast everything should be dying (which they probably don't because the people most affected are new to the game and don't have a frame of reference), it's something of a black box. -
01-11-2018, 11:38 PMZojhaAnd these same people would would equip a new item and think they improved their skills because their numbers went up, if they even have the math skills required to realize the number is higher, because they clearly lack the comprehension skills to make the connection between the higher iLvL and the better performance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tridus
If they don't even bother with tooltips, all kinds of guides will be dead in the water as well - those are even longer and literacy becomes an issue there as well.
The only thing ambiguous about Wildfire for example is the "most" in the description, because nothing tells you which damage is compiled and which isn't. But it'scommonepic rarity sense that this essentially amounts to a 25% damage buff for the duration and you wanna cram as much skills as possible into it and thus... you wanna use it shortly before you unload.
If the average user really has issues with that... I suppose I'm an exceptional user and shouldn't project my standards. -
01-12-2018, 12:25 AMTridusIt says "25% of most damage is compiled and dealt at the end." The first time I read that, I read it to mean literally what it says: 25% of the damage is taken, compiled, and dealt at the end. As in, only 75% of the damage is dealt up front. Why such a thing would exist made no sense to me and I found out what it really did when I googled it. A clearer wording might be "When Wildfire expires, it deals additional damage equal to 25% of damage you inflicted during the duration."Quote:
Originally Posted by Zojha
Does that make me dumb? Maybe :) . But if I'm willing to admit it, you know there's lots of people who had the same confusion and aren't.
The single hardest part of my job is understanding what an "average user" actually is, because my experience is so far removed from theirs. If you're engaging in this discussion on this forum at all, you are almost certainly not average. You'd probably be shocked at just what an "average user" knows and doesn't know, but it's closer to that person who asks for computer help and then drags it out forever because they can't follow basic instructions than it is to you.Quote:
If the average user really has issues with that... I suppose I'm an exceptional user and shouldn't project my standards.
Now imagine trying to design a game where both that and the elite level players can have things to do and thus remain interested and subscribed for months on end. That's the challenge SE has, and it drives some of the decisions they make. It's also why the forum isn't a great place to get feedback exclusively: only a certain segment of the playerbase is here, and it's not very representative. -
01-12-2018, 12:46 AMVstarstruckThe fact they have an ability named cooldown.. and that tooltip.. is interesting to say the least, it is very confusing at first.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tridus
But yes some of the ability details on some things is very confusing on top of things, the game needs this:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...able-to-use-DF.
badly -
01-12-2018, 05:17 AMera1NeI believe this won't really fix anything, because many people do not care about tutorials or getting better at the game. Simple as that. Do you know 3 person that read the "guide book" delivered with every game many years ago? I don't, because almost nobody cares and you can see that in the novice network aswell. Don't get me wrong, i always encourage people to ask questions, because i want to help, but you can easily see that many questions could've been answered, if they didn't click the tutorial box away asap. On the other hand, if you want to get better than you search on the internet, read the tooltips or ask good players, how to improve and imo this works better than an very detailed developer guide for various reasons. With that said, i would like if Square would add an mentor class/role chat, so people can ask and discuss stuff about their class more easily and maybe this would encourage some to get better at their class or let them realize that they are doing sth wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vstarstruck
Of course some tooltips are not good enough and dots potency aren't fully detailed/explained, because you have to calculate the overall potency yourself. initial dmg+((dot potency*duration)/3). Thats something Square should improve. But if those players would take 5-20 min to read their tooltips, then they could easily understand what skills are more efficient for mob groups in most cases and if they don't do aoe skills during huge pulls, then those players either don't care or haven't even read the tooltips. An forced tutorial won't change anything imo, if an person can't even be ask to read the tooltips. -
01-12-2018, 07:09 AMRichardButteYou just explained exactly why healers can still get kicked, though. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Vstarstruck
I mean, if they're dead 70% of the fight, sure, but when you have a group of DPS (especially if they're stacking) watching their rotations long enough to gauge who is seriously slacking is going to be difficult at best and cause YOU to die because you're not paying attention to what you're doing.Quote:
likewise can point out who is lacking severe DPS before checking gear. Sometimes in 8 or 24 man it can be easy to tell as well, they are laying on the floor for longer time then they spend attacking things.
It'd be amazing if it was that simple...Quote:
Originally Posted by ErryK
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01-12-2018, 07:15 AMWolf_Heartnet
I agree, this game is in desperate need of DPS parsers for all to see. Would love to see the modding feature that was promised and never delivered on.
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01-12-2018, 07:58 AMKrotoanI don't remember them ever promising modding capabilities.. I actually remember them specifically saying we WOULDN'T be able to mod the game.. but then again they have said a lot of things. Save me a google and link that post or interview?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf_Heartnet
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01-12-2018, 08:12 AMWolf_HeartnetIts been talked about since before 2.X with alot of the juicy info in live letters. Heres the easy stuff to find on it though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krotoan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgLAYwDLvUk
G: When A Realm Reborn was announced at the beginning, you mentioned or promised the implementation of user-made UI mods. We don't hear much mention any more. Is the plan still coming around and when can we expect to hear something about them?
Y: After we announced this feature, we needed to tackle the legal side of things as well as how much freedom to give to players, as we need to give them scripts. It's taking time but slowly, it's proceeding.
https://www.gamespot.com/articles/ff.../1100-6425730/ -
01-12-2018, 08:35 AMCrystenI will agree with 99.99% of everything you've said in this thread, and I don't have a whole lot more to contribute to the discussion that hasn't already been said to death. That said, in terms of in-game tutorials I can think of only one single instance where anything akin to teaching a rotation was implemented (and even then...eeeeeegh) and that was the level 30-40 NIN job questline.Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardButte
The game went out of it's way to introduce mudras to you at that stage and had specific solo instances where you were using them in combat situations. This was fantastic in teaching the basics of NIN's core job mechanic.
Then they screwed it up entirely at level 45 by giving you your final mudra (which is linked to NIN's bread and butter in regards to DPS) and then saying "no time to explain this one, we need to do the plot thing!"
Result? Tons of level 50 NINs that didn't know how to Huton (and still don't, to this day).
So, to be fair, the idea has existed (albeit barely and never done again since), so I would absolutely love more of this where abilities and their usage and application in your rotation is explained somewhat in the job quest storylines. -
01-12-2018, 09:23 AMRichardButteAlso still waiting on the mobile companion and all that...Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf_Heartnet
Someone in another thread suggested that class quests do more of this as well, and it's not a bad idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crysten
Also, there was a mod in WoW (which I laughed at the idea of using, frankly) that made the buttons of your ideal rotation appear in a row for you.
XIV could have a special training area that could light up the buttons in the rotation order that would result in the highest damage output or something like that.
I realize we have to adjust skills in different situations, but this would still be a good starting point.
I feel like 90% of players who are "bad" actually just haven't been properly educated on getting the most from their class. -
01-12-2018, 10:05 AMVstarstruckYa I really think its simply lack of information, they do not realize how BIG the difference can be, even pressing your next action before the CD resets can lead to big differences and people are not going to see how much so because they are not doing high end rotations with another DPS that does the same for 14-18 min runs.Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardButte
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01-12-2018, 10:20 AMKrotoanHuh, I wonder why it was so prominent in my mind they were against mods.. maybe it's just because of how they're treating 3rd party stuff right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf_Heartnet
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01-12-2018, 10:29 AMRichardButteAfter 3 years without adding mods AND the fact that using a 3rd party parser is a bannable offense, it's logical to assume they're actively against them, so don't feel bad about it in the least.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krotoan
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01-15-2018, 05:59 AMTaranTatsuuchi
I have to show my agreement to several of the points brought about in this thread...
Dps roles aren't held to the same scrutiny as the other roles.
It is too difficult, outside of third party applications, to scrutinize the dps roles.
The game doesn't teach players how to play the game well enough as they progress to the point that it becomes necessary to know how to play well.