It's ok to be uncomfortable at first and practice one step at a time. :) Cynfael already posted some great advice for you. I'd like to add to that that remember than when you Holy, you will stun all the monsters so that they're not hitting the tank at all. If you have Divine Seal Regen up on the tank, Eye for an eye on the tank, and Asylum covering the tank, the tank is already being covered by a lot (you can even add Medica II to this, so you'll have 3 HoTs ticking on the tank at once). You can start practicing DPS with casting just Swiftcast Holy followed by Aero III. Holy will stun everything, giving you time to cast in peace and Aero will DoT everything. Then drop out of cleric stance again. When you get more confortable, add more Holys. Remember you can use Assize, Asylum and Benediction to heal while you're in Cleric Stance (Assize is good to use whenever it's up anyway and it does damage too).Quote:
Originally Posted by lvillanueva5
As a healer, is it my job to DPS? A new perspective.
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11-15-2016, 04:54 PMTaika
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11-15-2016, 10:07 PMGraumSenpai
Now I want to point out that there are several combos you can do as a Healer which have major effects on total DPS output and required healing. AST is my main so I'll only do one example with it.
Let's get started:
1. Regen your tank
2. Clerics stance (right away, I dont care how many mobs you have on that guy, screw it... do not use Essential dignity)
3. (use your judgement here)
a. Use Luminiferous Aether for mana regen (or skip to B if you don't have time)
b. Use Celestial Opposition for a super long stun (as well as adding 10s to whatever buffs you have, including that regen you just tossed out (saving mana~~~) and even your sprint) -
11-15-2016, 10:08 PMGraumSenpai
(PART 2)
4. Begin your Gravity Spam. Cast this once, cast it again, and then Swiftcast into a 3rd, at this point the adds are up again and they are dealing damage to your tank (who probably healed 20-30% or more of their HP in that time because of your regen, which is still ticking away for another 18+s btw)
5. Remove Clerics Stance!
6. Essential Dignity
7. Heal as necessary as damage coming in might be enough to hold you out of clerics still. -
11-15-2016, 10:09 PMGraumSenpai
(PART 3) (RIP 1000 character responses)
Hey guess what! You successfully did 1.6-2k total DPS (thats damage per second by the way... thats TWO THOUSAND DAMAGE EVERY SECOND FOR THE LAST X SECONDS!), your tank is topped off on HP, your mana is full (and still gaining... over MP regen a bad thing too? Trash pulls I say nah), and to top it of (this is the most important part), you look like a bad mothu trucka... which is the whole point of healing right? You hold the power of life and death for yourself and 3 other people... what can be cooler than that? -
11-15-2016, 10:09 PMGraumSenpai
(PART 4) (UGHHHH)
These rotations are so effective, that unless its some BLM outgearing me, Its not uncommon for me to have the highest DPS overall, beating out the DPS as well. Essential Dignity, Tetragramaton, Benediction, whatever skills you filthy SCH have that your pet does... there are so many ways to instantaneously gain health back on your tank its litterally the stupidest thing every to say you cant do DPS in a dungeon. I will admit, ABC isn't honestly the best thing for a healer... I have moments where I stand around for 1 or 2 GCD depending on the situation. Essential Dignity down? Swiftcast used already? Lightspeed kind of like Benediction where you feel like you somehow lost the game if you had to use it? Alright sit around in order to have an option so you can comfortably let your tank use Hallowed Ground or Living Dead or Holmgang only to laugh cause they wasted the cooldown cause guess what? Your a bad motha trucka. -
11-16-2016, 12:13 AMCynfael
Graum, your enthusiasm is great, but FYI you can write your post, copy and delete the bulk of it when you get the "exceeded character limit" error, then go back and use the Edit function to fill the rest in :)
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11-16-2016, 05:30 AMFernosaurBwahahahahahaha~!Quote:
Originally Posted by GraumSenpai
https://ih0.redbubble.net/image.1859...0,black.u1.jpg
As Cynfael said, you can evade the 1000 character limit by writing your entire post, cutting a bunch of text with ctrl+x, posting, and then editing the post to add the remaining text back in. :) -
11-16-2016, 08:33 AMGraumSenpai
Ah I didn't know that... the extent of my Foruming on here is just asking for Statics :P
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11-16-2016, 01:40 PMKurtyzana
I don't dps as healer in dungeon only sometimes in raid(i also think that is stupid to except from Healer to do DPS on raid there can be so many problem with other members that Healer need always be on alert so they don;t die...i know many healer wich like so much dps that they forgot to heal...and wipe the raid...and also know ppl that they demand from healer to DPS it is so anoying) why becouse i had many time complain from other ppl in party that i need DPS even if I'm Healer, few times i was kicked becouse i didn't dps...so i started lvl up DPS is soo stressless role...and only heal when i go with my friends
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11-16-2016, 02:27 PMCynfaelSorry that you feel stressed out by the expectation to DPS as healer, but for what it's worth, it gets easier if you try. If you dig your heels in and DPS only when you feel pressured to do so, you will never become comfortable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurtyzana
There's been a lot written lately (and over the past 2+ years on these forums), but I'll just reiterate that most players only take issue if they observe healers with lots of obvious downtime doing nothing. -
11-16-2016, 04:16 PMGraumSenpai
IDK... Guess healing comes easy for me cause I don't relate to anyone who says Healing is a stressful job... The only stress I get is from having to heal people doing stupid stuff in Savage :( Otherwise healing is very straight forward with minimal comboing.
I understand the intent of this thread tho, so theres nothing more for me from here, so I'll just excuse myself now... really no reason to be continueing this when you can see the whole topic discussed to death in the first 50 posts lol. -
11-17-2016, 01:13 AMSkatedudeguy
I'll throw this bit of advice for players who are new to doing DPS as a healer:
If you can, start with a group you know, or at least a tank you know well. Besides not have any pressure if you wipe, it can help you learn how to read a tank and when to stance dance if they know you are new to it.
I usually do NOT DPS the first pull if I don't know the content and/or the tank. I want to see if they are using their cool downs, what stance they use, if they keep hate well, and how long I may have to DPS before I have to heal.
Oh, and and the party doesn't have to be fully topped up always. Remember that! Instead of spending time taking C.S. down, casting a heal, and redoing C.S. each time they get hit, think about your other tools. Asylum can get regen on a group without a cast time (still have to take off C.S.) and you can just rely on the HOTs. Your tank may just be good enough with a regen and you can go crazy. -
11-29-2016, 09:32 AMspagthetapdancer
disagreed. anything less than full heal is that much less HP for them to work with the moment their stupid-proofing wears off and starts leaking. And 9-12s with the group not taking damage? by the time I finish stacking dots(assuming mechanics even give me that much time) I'm going to have to go into overdrive because they'll constantly fail. why risk being in the middle of something and not at the ready to react to damage? that extra second of delay coming out of cleric stance is just going to make healing them back up before they faceroll into something else and die less secure.
a safe, secure run is my only objective. I don't care if I have to heal moar as long as the chance of a wipe is as close to 0% as possible. you can't count on people to keep themselves alive, and even if they promised you that you could, they'll wind up breaking it. -
11-29-2016, 10:45 AMCynfaelThe key flaw in that logic is the word "react." Most of what you do as a healer (or as any role in this game, really) is plan for what's going to happen and use your skills accordingly.Quote:
Originally Posted by spagthetapdancer
No, your best-laid plans will not 100% cover the occasional party member who seems determined to die to mechanics, but when you know what is coming down the pipeline and what your party is expected/supposed to do about it, your mental flow chart will be pretty reliable. Having to weave in an "oh crap" instant heal or having to swap to Plan B (i.e. "drop everything else and help the party member who screwed up badly") doesn't mean that you need to remain on standby or that you need to keep everyone 100% full 100% of the time.
Also, there is no delay coming out of Cleric Stance. You sacrifice nothing by using it correctly, and that goes back to learning the fights while keeping your emergency options on your mental backburner in case something does go horribly wrong. Personally I deal with this by thinking of what mechanic is about to come up and how likely it is that someone could die from it if they screwed up and didn't get my immediate help. If there's a fair chance of death, I'll make sure I'm ready to drop CS if I have to; if there is no risk, or if it's one of those modest raid-wide AoEs that kills no one and is followed by nothing immediately after, I'll finish whatever I'm doing and then patch up the boo-boos. If I feel particularly fancy, I'll drop CS to shield up and then go back into CS to keep pushing while the AoE does little or no damage. -
11-29-2016, 12:02 PMspagthetapdancerplanning and randoms are conditions at complete odds with one another. you cannot plan for when they're going to screw up next because there's very little consistency.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynfael
sure, the fight itself is more or less scripted. but healers don't fight the boss. they fight their party members. how are you predicting something that has no rhyme or reason behind it? Facerolling by it's very nature has nothing to do with a plan.
Occasional? where are you playing, that people only occasionally take that much damage? "drop everything else and heal the screw-up" is a state I have to near constantly be in to save them. I'm sorry that not all of us can count on our statics so that we don't have to babysit them all day, but PuG's are the baseline, the entry point and standard. not the exception.Quote:
No, your best-laid plans will not 100% cover the occasional party member who seems determined to die to mechanics, but when you know what is coming down the pipeline and what your party is expected/supposed to do about it, your mental flow chart will be pretty reliable. Having to weave in an "oh crap" instant heal or having to swap to Plan B (i.e. "drop everything else and help the party member who screwed up badly") doesn't mean that you need to remain on standby or that you need to keep everyone 100% full 100% of the time.
and yes they need to be at 100% as often as possible. even A12N's second half is basically nothing but the healer being targeted by mechanics and the dps taking damage every 3-6 seconds. if they aren't standing in sacraments, they're getting hit by the bleed mechanic.
how long is it going to take you to press the button? better yet, how long is it going to take you to cancel what you're casting and then press it? about a full second. and they can and likely will get themselves killed within that time.Quote:
Also, there is no delay coming out of Cleric Stance. You sacrifice nothing by using it correctly, and that goes back to learning the fights while keeping your emergency options on your mental backburner in case something does go horribly wrong. Personally I deal with this by thinking of what mechanic is about to come up and how likely it is that someone could die from it if they screwed up and didn't get my immediate help. If there's a fair chance of death, I'll make sure I'm ready to drop CS if I have to; if there is no risk, or if it's one of those modest raid-wide AoEs that kills no one and is followed by nothing immediately after, I'll finish whatever I'm doing and then patch up the boo-boos. If I feel particularly fancy, I'll drop CS to shield up and then go back into CS to keep pushing while the AoE does little or no damage.
The problem is that all the stress-heavy phases that cause these scenarios aren't just one AOE or tank buster and then nothing for a while. they're 2-3 different effects going off either at the same time or in rapid succession. anyone can dps during blasty charge's dps check(or hell, adds phase in sophie ex), but the example(a12n's second half) above offers nothing of the sort. 2 dots and a few malefics isn't worth a wipe so I'm going with the safest and most paranoid assumption, the one that has the least chance of being wrong.
and that assumption is that none of them will afford me the luxury of dpsing. -
11-29-2016, 10:03 PMCynfael
On my phone, so I'm skipping the quotes.
- There is no contradiction in what I wrote. Your plans include options for salvaging player error, but you don't play exclusively around the possibility that someone might screw up, especially since many mistakes are not fatal.
- I haven't played in a static since clearing Coil, and I rarely even queue with friends for duties. My advice is based on playing in PUGs.
- Of course a fight like A12N will have a higher healing requirement, much higher if your party's skill and coordination is poor. It's hardly representative of the average PUG healer experience. -
11-29-2016, 10:47 PMTaikaYup, it's a really depressing thought that as a healer one should just focus on standing by and waiting for others to screw up...Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynfael
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11-30-2016, 01:41 AMVanilleFang
Healers aren't around to fix mistakes. Sure we can help, but our job is to not make sure every mistake is salvaged. That kind of mentality puts a lot of pressure on the healer(s), when it should be a shared responsibility.
We can't heal stupid or lazy, and trying to do so will only cause you unneeded stress. -
11-30-2016, 03:29 PMKeikun
The answer is No, its not our job to DPS, simple as that, if someone ask the HEALer to dps, well, their dps is trash and it needs to be improved. Its ok if the healer wants to dps its everyones choice, but a lot of people is starting this not so new rule about healers MUST dps, wich is of course, stupid.
I´m gonna say it again for everyone who believes they are the proest person in the game, if you ask the healer to dps, you sure need to fix that weak dps of yours =)
Oh, btw, if you are asking the healers to dps, next time dont complain about how POWERFUL the healer is, and ask to be nerfed =) -
11-30-2016, 04:39 PMTaikaEveryone knows this to be completely untrue. You can prove yourself the opposite simply by checking FFlogs and seeing that the highest DPS DD players also have their healers doing DPS. If I'm doing an expert on my DD jobs and doing my best to push as much DPS as I can I will also ask for my healer not to slack.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keikun
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11-30-2016, 05:16 PMRennies
Keikun's one of those healers who expects everyone else to do everything for her while she sits back and spams unnecessary heals/afks for the entire dungeon. It's impossible to reason with those people.
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11-30-2016, 06:05 PMtechnole
Top damage groups will always have good combined healer DPS. As the faster you clear the fight, the better everyone's damage numbers look. What many laid-back healers don't realize is the best mitigation in the game is being able to skip mechanics all together because of good party DPS. Plus you have fights that reward it on the healing side like in A11/A11S every limit cut you skip you lessen the damage stacks chaser has.
Sophia Ex anther example, do enough damage you don't see a tank buster in the first phase. Great, don't need to heal can just stay in cleric. Everyone wants that fight done asap anyway, less body-raising checks.
I'll say from a tanking perspective though when you get those top-off, 100% all-the-time healers. You just drop Grit, keep blood weapon up on cooldown. Get out of Defiance as soon as possible, and/or remember your Sword Oath. If a healer has all the time in the world to stand in heal, then might as well push the boundaries, don't worry we'll use cooldowns as-needed, but we probably won't die either way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rennies
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11-30-2016, 07:25 PMRennies
When I was leveling Dark Knight I found that those healers are even worse with keeping me alive. Fully geared healers were also performing much worse than sprouts, which is kinda pathetic.
The worst was this one healer who literally spammed Cure on me every time I dropped to 95% health for an entire run. She was OOM during every single pull.
I asked why she did that, and suggested that she should use that MP to cast Stones instead so that each Cure would be more valuable and stuff would die faster. She said she used Cure exclusively for MP efficiency. Horrid. -
11-30-2016, 09:52 PMCynfaelI wish I could find the person who initially promoted this fallacy about healer DPS being an issue only because of poor party DPS and shake them vigorously until their brains either resumed normal function or dribbled out their ears. I'd be okay with either result, really.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keikun
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12-01-2016, 10:33 AMRivxkobeGoing to be honest here: I'd hate to have you in my party.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keikun
As a healer we also have access to DPS abilities and Cleric Stance. It is your choice not to use them but you are being ineffective and inefficient. And if you don't see the obvious positives to DPSing as a healer then I don't know what to tell you.
You come here and arrogantly state nonsense. No one is saying Healers MUST DPS, we are all saying it is useful and a much better way to spend your time than doing nothing or overhealing. You on the other hand are stating that anyone who WANTS healers to DPS isn't DPSing well enough and that the DPS are weak. This is, in all honesty, stupid. -
12-02-2016, 05:08 AMJudge_XeroNah. Top Raid Teams that ask their healers to DPS just need to git gud. I mean, if they were able to push 130% efficiency instead of just 110% then their healers wouldn't need to DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rivxkobe
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12-03-2016, 05:06 AMtechnoleThe top raid teams don't even have to ask. Everyone does their job to their fullest potential, and both healers take advantage of DPSing with party buffs up like Battle Voice + Foe Requiem, Ninja Trick Attack, AST Balance, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge_Xero
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12-03-2016, 06:41 AMAnzuulI'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic.Quote:
Originally Posted by technole
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12-03-2016, 03:47 PMFernosaur
I thought of telling Xeno that they should clarify the sarcasm in their post because Internet, but I thought it was kind of unnecessary because it would be too obvious.
WHELP. -
12-03-2016, 05:06 PMThrivaios
Do healers HAVE to DPS? I don't think so, depending on their comfort level and the content.
SHOULD they DPS? Absolutely. Especially if they are comfortable, know the content and can handle stance dancing without any major issue.
When I first started playing a year ago I would have never felt comfortable adding DPS, so I can relate to those who don't want to. However, as I maxed the three healing jobs, took SCH as my main and leveled both DPS and tanks, I came to quickly realize just how beneficial and situationally required it is. I may not always feel like doing it and sometimes don't even have to (when DPS are over powered and on point!) but to argue disabling a vital component of our tool kit seems really absurd to me. -
12-03-2016, 06:07 PMCookieMonstaWao are we still debating this? Just accept that your class has a high skill ceiling that you may not be able to reach at the moment already. Reach those heights, instead of telling everyone to dumb down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keikun
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12-03-2016, 07:39 PMtechnoleI know, I decided to add a little personal commentary and sizzle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anzuul
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12-03-2016, 08:07 PMbardabooIf I'm tanking and you standing there doing nothing or ovrhealing I'm either going to ask you to dps or make your job harderQuote:
Originally Posted by Keikun
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12-04-2016, 02:54 AMgumasHere a tip for you, based from what i see hundred times in party, if you see healer not doing dps (basically he just heal and heal only)Quote:
I'm either going to ask you to dps or make your job harder
Make his job harder in a good way, just switch to speedy run, grab like 2-3 mobs every encounter, destroy all mobs, continue on
i see a lot of tank in my server start doing this method, the moment they see the healer is "pure" healer, they switch to speedy run immediately, not just it make the progress faster, most dps will happy with it because whatever buff they have like GL or BOTD the speedy run will keep it in check, if you tank you have advantage to see if the healer is actually competent or not and because things going fast he cant do anything stupid like emote spam or jump around, he will do his job which is healing the shit out of you non stop
Basically if healer dont want 30% dps and 70% heal, what stopping you to grant the healer wish to go 110% full heal mode, he wont dps but he will work twice as much as he do dps healing hybrid -
12-04-2016, 03:55 AMCynfaelThe only problem with this is that if the healer wasn't prepared or willing to handle a combined expectation of moderate healing and moderate DPS, they usually can't handle huge pulls, especially if the DPS get greedy or are inattentive and take damage as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by gumas
A lot of random dungeon groups don't realize how much of their trash-compacting efficiency they owe to a healer's AoE damage, and tanks sometimes don't notice when the dedicated DPS are poor at AoE, so they pull way more than they can handle without constant babysitting and end up making the run take twice as long as it needed to. -
12-06-2016, 11:58 AMBourne_EndeavorThat's cool. I'll just stand in every AoE I know won't kill me to make up for your lack of DPS. Why should I dodge and potentially mess up my positionals if you can't be arsed to contribute more to the party's overall damage? Better even, why should I turn on Grit or Defiance if I can hold hate just fine without them? I mean, that would make your job easier. Alas, you decided to make the run take longer because you don't want to utilize your full toolkit. So, really, I'm just doing the same as you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keikun
Keep in mind, even Savage allots for plenty of downtime. There are parts where the off healer has literally nothing to do. -
12-06-2016, 01:17 PMFinalWolf
They gave you offensive spells for a reason.
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12-07-2016, 03:54 PMAniCelestine
I once heard this on the forums and have tried to spread the word:
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12-07-2016, 05:01 PMLadyAveria
The way I see it is healers are there to heal >.> if they can DPS as well, great! If they can't, that is okay! It is quite annoying to hear people expecting something from a class whose purpose is to keep people from dying lol I am grateful when a healer can DPS but I don't scold them or form a mob after them because they don't DPS, some people just can't handle doing two jobs in a raid or dungeon! If they are comfortable just healing and are enjoying the game, everyone can just go away XD Why don't DPS classes tank? Why don't tanks heal? It is pointless...just let someone play the way they are comfortable with. So basically to anyone that is sitting there high and mighty, leave healers alone that don't DPS >.> maybe they can't handle it and want to enjoy the game...and before you come back with "Well they shouldn't heal." How about you stop trying to be Square or Lord of Final Fantasy lol
And by the way, I DPS as a healer, I am comfortable doing it! ^+^ -
12-07-2016, 06:29 PMLambdafishAs a PLD, I do sometimes heal. As an OT PLD, group healing and mitigation can be powerful. I have stoneskin, protect, divine veil and clemency at my disposal. Using divine veil and then using clemency on the MT during high damage phases will give everyone a mitigation shield. Protect is used when lots of people die and you are available to apply it while the healers are busy raising. And stoneskin is just great to have.Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyAveria
Also WAR self heals