Character disconnect and disappointing Player Agency in Dawntrail's MSQ [Spoilers]

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Originally Posted by Regis_Paran

This is honestly a cherry on top all of my issues with DT story. The fact, that people in Tural would have been better off, if we never get there. My WoL actually feels guilty about what happened.

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Wrong. The only way you could come to this conclusion is if you entirely ignore the story that happened and substitute your head canon.

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Originally Posted by CerusSerenade

1. Your breakdown leaves Mamook to continue to bear resentment to the rest of Tural, continue mass baby sacrifices, and continue subverting the rest of the nation.

2. There's nothing stopping Soreel Ja from still stealing the Inter-dimensional Key, Zoraal Ja from stealing the keystones, and opening the Golden City, WITHOUT Wuk Lamat and Koana, and likely with Wuk Lamat and Bakool Ja Ja dead. Therefore he keeps the cheat death device and Tural falls to ruin. The scions will be involved too late and with no information on the golden city gate, letting Sphene commence with interdimensional fusion and end the world.

3. Without participating in the rite with Wuk Lamat, we'd have no authority to learn anything about the golden city, let alone even approach given Mamook guards and hides it.

4. Eerenville would not only have to lose his mother, he wouldn't get any closure either.

You have grossly misunderstood the events of the story to spin this narrative that somehow Wuk Lamat is the cause for everything going wrong. It is entirely off base.

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Originally Posted by Zackneifein

Well, that's another problem that Tural is supposed to be a continental power with Zoraal Ja even mocking Garlemald, when from what we see, a single City State of Eorzea with the help of some adventurer and Cid could be enough to drive them off and I'm not including the WoL in that.

It's even more funny when Zoraal Ja said that they just have to invade Sharlayan to take their technology when even Garlemald at the height of it's power was cautious enough to not try it.

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Yeah it'd be a real shame if Tural military was completely stumped by the enemy having an air force. Not like that was ever an issue for people challenging Garlemald.

Somehow I don't think they could've sweet-talked Vrtra to deal with airships if they were themselves the aggressors. So the whole Tural invasion plan seems like a complete non-threat once we actually see them in action, just like the Alexandrian military turned out to be a complete non-threat. They really, really should have just committed to the vacation adventure plotline instead of trying to immediately have world-ending stakes that collapsed like houses of cards the moment they were even slightly tested.

I was beyond excited for the Final Fantasy IX content/references, yet the entire last map('s plot) was so bad that I couldn't enjoy a second of it.
Why am I playing theater while a companion character is trying to cope with the loss of their mother after thinking her safe and alive just days ago? Why do I have nothing to say to it?

Obviously MSQ will never cater fully to one's own preferences, but this time around it was nothing but a drag. I'm still waiting for the "journey of my life" that the ending song is preaching about.

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Originally Posted by CerusSerenade

Your breakdown leaves Mamook to continue to bear resentment to the rest of Tural, continue mass baby sacrifices, and continue subverting the rest of the nation.

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I will give you our role in ending the children sacrifice. But considering how Bakool Ja Ja and his mother felt about it, change was already on the way. As for the Mamook still resenting the rest - with all due respect - so what? Is that now WoL job to solve tensions inside random nations?

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There's nothing stopping Soreel Ja from still stealing the Inter-dimensional Key, Zoraal Ja from stealing the keystones, and opening the Golden City,

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How would he even know what that key is for? Or that it's even a key? Also, I claim that they wouldn't even find the Golden City without us.

Not to mention, Zoraal Ja only went there because he lost the fight for the throne.
If he won - or if he took the throne by force - he would have no reason to pursue it further, because he would be busy building his army (with debatable reasults, as I wrote in a separate reply).

And neither Erenville wouldn't lose is mother nor other citizens of Yyasulani would lost 30 years and their loved ones outside the dome.

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Originally Posted by Astrus

When a story tells you how to think, act or feel and your reaction is "that's stupid, I would never" it leads to narrative dissonance and you end up not really enjoying the story.

As I was having said discussion something clicked, this is a big part of why I did not enjoy my time with the DT MSQ. Having these feelings of friendship with and unconditional support for Wuk Lamat, and later total agreement with what goes down in Living Memory, forced on the WoL and by extension me.
The WoL is not a premade character like, for example, in other mainline FF titles with their own backstory and motivations I just happen to be in charge of. The WoL has always been my character.
Of course, I always expected to go along with what plot wants, that's how storytelling in an MMO works. However, in the past we have always been able to express dissatisfaction with snarky dialogue choices or have been able to try and futilely argue another point and have that attempt be acknowledged.
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(snip for length)

That's exactly it.
Now I'm a hobby writer and like to roleplay my game characters, make up their backstories and motivations and so on, and as such, I'm used to my characters clashing with a game narrative here and there. Comes with the territory. I've had that in the past with 14 too, but that was different, and I didn't mind that.
In earlier expansions, I had instances where my WOL would handle things differently or feel differently or have different core beliefs than the linear MMO narrative demanded, but that was on me; I'd set up this character and so I'd have an alternative scenario for some situations and outcomes in my head as my personal head story, running parallel to the "official" game story, and it was just fine having that. The difference was, I always thought the overall story was good, it had things to say, and my character overall felt like they had agency and could personalise responses. And I had fun puzzling out how to make a few key changes to my own WOL's story but still let the main narrative continue, connect everything, find the most elegant or fun compromises for those cases. It was part of engaging with the story for me, and I always liked that the game provided me with something I could think about to that extent.

Until Dawntrail I'd never simply had to say, "For the sake of my own sanity, none of this happens, the whole expansion is scrapped" - and at the same time it doesn't even matter because my character had no place in it anyway, except for the rare few moments with Erenville before Wuk Lamat inserted herself into the situation again.

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Originally Posted by Regis_Paran

I will give you our role in ending the children sacrifice. But considering how Bakool Ja Ja and his mother felt about it, change was already on the way. As for the Mamook still resenting the rest - with all due respect - so what? Is that now WoL job to solve tensions inside random nations?



How would he even know what that key is for? Or that it's even a key? Also, I claim that they wouldn't even find the Golden City without us.

Not to mention, Zoraal Ja only went there because he lost the fight for the throne.
If he won - or if he took the throne by force - he would have no reason to pursue it further, because he would be busy building his army (with debatable reasults, as I wrote in a separate reply).

And neither Erenville wouldn't lose is mother nor other citizens of Yyasulani would lost 30 years and their loved ones outside the dome.

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Sareel Ja was able to obtain it on his own for Zoraal Ja, and brought it specifically to open the gate, so I'd say it's pretty obviously apparent that they knew what it was for and was planning on this contingency.

You also seem to forget that Zoraal Ja was always going to lose the last two steps of the rite of succession, meaning that no matter what, he fails, he can't steal it from Koana or Bakool Ja Ja because they would also fail. Koana and Bakool Ja Ja couldn't take on the shade of Gulool Ja Ja themselves.

Again, Erenville WOULD lose his mother, and what's worse is he wouldn't get any closure over the matter. You missed crucial details that mean that Etheirys meets it's ruin without our intervention in both the rites and the events that follow.

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Originally Posted by CerusSerenade

1. Your breakdown leaves Mamook to continue to bear resentment to the rest of Tural, continue mass baby sacrifices, and continue subverting the rest of the nation.

2. There's nothing stopping Soreel Ja from still stealing the Inter-dimensional Key, Zoraal Ja from stealing the keystones, and opening the Golden City, WITHOUT Wuk Lamat and Koana, and likely with Wuk Lamat and Bakool Ja Ja dead. Therefore he keeps the cheat death device and Tural falls to ruin. The scions will be involved too late and with no information on the golden city gate, letting Sphene commence with interdimensional fusion and end the world.

3. Without participating in the rite with Wuk Lamat, we'd have no authority to learn anything about the golden city, let alone even approach given Mamook guards and hides it.

4. Eerenville would not only have to lose his mother, he wouldn't get any closure either.

You have grossly misunderstood the events of the story to spin this narrative that somehow Wuk Lamat is the cause for everything going wrong. It is entirely off base.
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You have grossly misunderstood the initial post I made, instead trying to spin the narrative that I am of the opinion Wuk Lamat is the biggest issue with the story told in Dawntrail. Ad hominem is not a way to address my complaints regarding player agency. Your arguments are entirely off base.

Your breakdown of my argument (and many of the valid additions in this thread by other people voicing their complaints) remains superficial at best, and fails at its core to take into account that in the hypothetical scenario of our character choosing not to aid in Wuk Lamat's trials, none of the other promises would have made much progress either. Galool Ja Ja and the ones supervising the trials would have made sure of that. In example, the moblins tell us forcing someone to become a potsworn is not happening. Similarly, the cooking contest only provides the ones able to listen to the local history with the leaves required for winning.

You can only get to the Golden City with the tablets. No one does the trials correctly, so no one fulfills that objective. No one is able to open the gate, because Ketenram isn't there to get mugged. Even so, no one but Galool Ja Ja would be aware he has the keys.

If we had gone into Tural on our own, instead of as a supporting character for Wuk Lamat, we could still have had an adventure that addressed any of the major plot points. In example, both Erenville and Krile have discovering the Golden City as a goal. They have shown to be avid researchers, knowledgable and unwavering in their efforts to get to the bottom of things. They don't need authority, they never had to before.

I know I am running off hypothetical, but the root issue remains: why did we willingly decide to mess with local politics, despite being warned not to. Why didn't we go with Estinien to play Monster Hunter instead of Dawntrail?

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Originally Posted by RabendaShin

You have grossly misunderstood the initial post I made, instead trying to spin the narrative that I am of the opinion Wuk Lamat is the biggest issue with the story told in Dawntrail. Ad hominem is not a way to address my complaints regarding player agency. Your arguments are entirely off base.

Your breakdown of my argument (and many of the valid additions in this thread by other people voicing their complaints) remains superficial at best, and fails at its core to take into account that in the hypothetical scenario of our character choosing not to aid in Wuk Lamat's trials, none of the other promises would have made much progress either. Galool Ja Ja and the ones supervising the trials would have made sure of that. In example, the moblins tell us forcing someone to become a potsworn is not happening. Similarly, the cooking contest only provides the ones able to listen to the local history with the leaves required for winning.

You can only get to the Golden City with the tablets. No one does the trials correctly, so no one fulfills that objective. No one is able to open the gate, because Ketenram isn't there to get mugged. Even so, no one but Galool Ja Ja would be aware he has the keys.

If we had gone into Tural on our own, instead of as a supporting character for Wuk Lamat, we could still have had an adventure that addressed any of the major plot points. In example, both Erenville and Krile have discovering the Golden City as a goal. They have shown to be avid researchers, knowledgable and unwavering in their efforts to get to the bottom of things. They don't need authority, they never had to before.

I know I am running off hypothetical, but the root issue remains: why did we willingly decide to mess with local politics, despite being warned not to. Why didn't we go with Estinien to play Monster Hunter instead of Dawntrail?

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Your assumption that Zoraal Ja and Sareel Ja wouldn't ambush Ketenram despite having done so with minimal interaction in the final trial is baseless. Sareel Ja clearly has his sources, and while he acts surprised that he had the keystones, he would have likely found out eventually.

As for authority to find the golden city, it's a well guarded secret of the Dawnservant. Defying sovereign authority is kind of a big no-no unless you want to start an international incident, which Krile has the good sense NOT to do. Even then, they wouldn't even be able to interact with it without the tablets and keystones, which they wouldn't be given.

You're not going off hypotheticals, you're going off pure head-canon while ignoring established information.

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Originally Posted by CerusSerenade

Sareel Ja was able to obtain it on his own for Zoraal Ja, and brought it specifically to open the gate, so I'd say it's pretty obviously apparent that they knew what it was for and was planning on this contingency.

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Originally there were three people at the gate - Galuf -who left Tural soon after and is now dead, Gulool Ja Ja and Ketenramm. Unless Zoraal or Sareel happened to overheard them specifically talking about it, I see not reasonable way they could have learn about the key and how to use it on their own.


So without WoL helping to find the Golden City, the only solution for Zoraal would be to give up or try good, old patricide / regiside but without Alexandrian upgrades.

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Originally Posted by Regis_Paran

Originally there were three people at the gate - Galuf -who left Tural soon after and is now dead, Gulool Ja Ja and Ketenramm. Unless Zoraal or Sareel happened to overheard them specifically talking about it, I see not reasonable way they could have learn about the key and how to use it on their own.


So without WoL helping to find the Golden City, the only solution for Zoraal would be to give up or try good, old patricide / regiside but without Alexandrian upgrades.

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So you're just conveniently ignoring the cutscene where Sareel Ja arrives with the key in hand, stating he stole it from the treasury vault, and guided Zoraal Ja to the gate of the Golden City, handing the key to him to which Zoraal Ja uses to open the gate?