New Benchmark (June): Au Ra Feedback

Yeah all I want is my character to look the same. Frankly, I would have been fine if we kept the current models, cause the worst case scenario to me is for my character to look different, I'd just fantasia if I wanted something different. I'm happy with the attempts to make the new models resemble the old ones with the updated benchmark though, however I'm still gonna be critical of my character's looks after years upon years with her, and would want it to be preserved rather than a perceived glow-up that I didn't ask for that changes the vibe and style of my character that I specifically made her with.

I really don't think our criticism needs someone policing it. If you feel fine about your character you can say so, but it paints an image that says "these players like theirs so be quiet" when using a bunch of other people's posts as some form of counteraction of us leaving feedback of our own characters, that the devs have specifically asked for.

I mean, I am more than happy to have these new face sculpts, eyes etc. as options.

It would give more ways for people to express their ideal character and damn would the character creator profit from more options.
The issue is they aren't doing that. They are basically telling people who liked their characters so far to go pound sand since they have "their vision".

It is nice that some people enjoy it but if they suddenly said "FFXIV is dead, we are making FFXI-2" some people would also like that but nobody in their right mind would say that everyone should just shut up and accept it because it is "their vision".

And it isn't like people here are just shouting "I HATE IT". A lot of people give very detailed examples as to what they dislike and why. Which as far as feedback goes is worth a lot more than shouting "it is so pretty!". Ignoring that maybe not everyone wants their character to be pretty but instead maybe have a bit more of a rugged feel.

@Plushy

A. Even if you're being very thorough in your data gathering, it is still biased. You're only looking at Twitter and the forums. I imagine you're only looking for specific keywords. Not everyone is on Twitter or the forums. Not everyone is using the keywords you searched with. The results you get on Twitter depend on an algorithm (and from my own experience, sometimes I search for my own tweets and I can't find them in the live version, when I can find them with the search engine in my archive files.)
You don't have access to all the social media accounts, the discord conversations, the brains of 30 millions of players.
I gave tons of other reasons in my first reply, like: we have no idea how many people are even aware of the graphics update, it's very possible tons of people will only find out what's going on in 3-4 weeks after release.


B. Because you're working with biased data, your conclusions become biased as a result.

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Originally Posted by Plushy

If someone can't do the benchmark and give their opinion then they just can't be counted and even if you want to count them. It could swing both ways, they could be happy or sad about the change which is why I didn't reply both times so what if about 70% like the changes? and honestly a lot of the console players tend to get their friend to create it for them.
Also I'm aware of the differences in how JP and EN use the forums but in the end, they all still reply the same and both give out opinions and it isn't that much of a huge difference between the two other than JP liking comments WAY more likely than EN. They're not THAT much difference other than EN also being more aggressive more often as well and don't post in compact threads and rather make their own threads.

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Originally Posted by Plushy

Its actually not that easy (in fact its actually hard) to get viability and reach on twitter unless you're already big with around 5k followers or more.
The fact that most of the accounts I linked have less than that shows just how much people liked the new au ra, so though you're correct its not a totally 1:1 its still valid for comparison, more so because most the accounts I linked are not big accounts with large followings.
This on top of HUGE amount of likes with 5k which isn't common for a ff14 post btw (average like range is really low with I want to say 100+ being the highest if heavily edited) and again just shows you how much people think the new au ra looks great.

There are also first time posters coming onto the forums, more so for the Japanese side, so the reach on the forums for ffxiv things is decent and a lot of people will see it, the jp thread about the character changes have 1mill views, so comparatively, you have a better chance getting noticed on that thread than twitter.
So I do want to repeat yes its not 1:1 but its still usable just due to ffxiv posts on X normally don't do all that well and the fact these did do extremely (I need to repeat just how much 5k is a MASSIVE amount) well even though its SFW and just mug shots basically, shows people like this change and a majority of people that comment do actually play ffxiv and though probably a ton of the likes are not ffxiv players, it could be future FFXIV players which is what SE wants, so if au ra good looks can bring in new players its a win-win.

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Everything I highlighted in there is bias. It's your own perspective, your own observations, from a very small fraction of players, from a very small fraction of opinions, and/or based on your own experience. You can try to argue about this as much as you want, but these are not objective facts, and you cannot draw objective conclusions from them.

C. The real problem is this:

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Originally Posted by Plushy

But rather than just trying to deflect my findings why not try to counter it with your own findings? because I'm convinced that more people are in favor of the new au ra than old just based on X/reddit posts alone.

Since the fourms is usually negative I can't find much proof here if you wanted me to find positive posts here rather than looking else where.

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I don't need you to to find more positive posts. I don't need to look for findings to counter your reasoning.
From the beginning, your reasoning is flawed. It doesn't matter if you're right or wrong, it's a reasoning that makes no sense to begin with.
You're comparing incredibly vague positive reactions to feedback and requests for improvement on very specific things, trying to force them against each other in an extremely binary "do people like the new au ra yes/no" statement.

So what if "more people are in favor of the new Au ra"? Does it mean that all the feedback people have been giving is entirely invalid? Does it mean that, through a democratic power based entirely on your own subjective and biased data, the opinion of people who think there is room for improvement should be completely disregarded?
What exactly are you hoping to prove? (this is a rhetorical question btw, don't answer that, just think about it)

D. I'm not in your brain, but I think the reason you're persisting so much in your reasoning is because you feel threatened. You're not used to seeing this much criticism (well, then again the EN forums are a beast in itself), you love the new appearance, and you are afraid that you might lose the thing you're happy you just got.

Like I said before, I totally get it. That's also why I'm persisting so much in my own feedback too.

But this is clouding your judgement, and making you polarize things in a "these people say the new Au ra is good" vs "these people say the new Au ra is bad", in a good vs evil kind of way. You feel an obligation to fight back against the wave of "negative" feedback to protect the thing you love.
And so you want to prove that "no, there are "good" opinions too, and there are a lot more, and therefore you should not listen to the "negative" feedback, because they're wrong!".
And in an attempt to prove that, you're gathering more and more data of "good" opinions, and in truth what you're really doing is just getting stuck in your own reasoning, because "see! they agree with me! therefore I must be right!" (that one is called confirmation bias btw) and shutting down every other argument that might threaten your reasoning.

And then you end up making absurd statements like this:

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Originally Posted by Plushy

Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean by that. But even if I am, just by reading that I don't agree.

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... How can you categorically disagree with me if you don't understand what I'm talking about.

Anyway. Calm down, don't worry about the "negative" feedback too much, there's no time to make any drastic changes before 7.0 hits anyway, so you'll most likely get what you saw in the benchmark (probably even better, since some bug submissions have been accepted already).
If you're extremely particular about something you like in the new benchmark that you do not want to change at all, it's definitely worth talking about it in detail. Pointing out the good in something is always helpful, because this way people know what is worth keeping, and what still needs to be adjusted.
But it will be, first and foremost, your own opinion. And just like everybody else's opinion, no matter if you agree with it or not, it's up to the devs to listen to it or not.

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Originally Posted by SchwarzwaelderTorte

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I looked on reddit and Instagram as well but that's beside the point.
Of course I can't look everywhere but that's ok.
I feel your argument isn't very good because your logic is nobody ever could do a comparison unless they looked at every person on the planet related to the topic. Aka you're saying the only way I can prove anything is if I asked every last au ra their opinion which obviously isn't possible.
The keywords I used were Au ra/dawntrail benchmark/benchmark FFXIV and the also the Japanese variants.
If you couldn't find yourself sometimes you might be shadowbanned for whatever reason but not going to go off topic about that. But basically I disagree with what you're saying here as even if I can't ask everybody, its still pretty good findings because again..by your logic. You can dismiss pretty much anything and anybody that didn't ask every last person on a given topic someone might be looking into.

C. I never said anything was invalid and I never implied things should be discard just because I don't agree with it. All I did was show a different prospective from somewhere outside the forums.
I feel this part was you not liking me showing a large amount of people from the tweets I've shown was very positive so you're assuming all these negative things about me. Things I never suggested or said so you feel SE might not change things even though they probably already saw it, since yoshi-p did basically confirm they look at more places than just the forums.
So now I'm assuming things about you but it feels like you don't like I shown these tweets.

D. I'm posting because I do indeed like the changes and I don't want to see them reverted. I don't really see the problem with this and why you're fighting me and trying to argue with me about it. So of course I feel obligated to post because again..I like the changes and want them to remain the same...if I didn't post how would SE know I like the change? I feel like you're saying these things because you don't like what I revealed, are you suggesting I don't say anything at all and be quiet?

and I am calm.
All I did was just post positive x posts and my own thread and I never replied to anybody unless they replied to me and I even made my own thread without talking about anybody directly.
You keep assuming these things about me and it honestly feels like self projection. I don't feel threaten at all. I just posted that I like the changes for au ra and I felt I needed to show others feel the same since the forums is pretty one sided and people that are happy don't post on the fourms all that often because...well...this happens and its also making me regret posting as well if all I'm going to be told is I'm bias and my opinion doesn't matter and people trying to argue with me and project insecurities onto me.

Well they can't say I didn't try.

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Originally Posted by Plushy

I posted feedback from X because on the forums, it tends to look one sided and this is what every female au ra player wants.
Since most people don't like posting on the forums because it can be pretty hostile they post on X or other sns.

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It's not one-sided, though. There is positive feedback in this very thread.

And if you truly believe that these people don't post on the forums because they are scared of getting harassed, then you posting links to their accounts, without their permission, on the place they are supposedly scared of is opening them up to harassment. A very miserable and bitter forum poster, who is unhappy with their Au Ra, now has an easily accessible list of people who hold a very different opinion. I don't believe this has happened yet (and I sure hope it has not happened and will not happen), but I think this is a very bad argument.
If I post on the forums, I am weighing the risks myself. If someone else posts my tweets on the forum, I have no control over that.

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Originally Posted by Plushy

Me posting these wasn't to say "everything is perfect everything is fine" and rather it was to show its not as one sided as most people might expect and since I do like the changes...I posted these peoples Don't you think I have a right to post about what I like and request to not revert the things I like, just as much as you have a right to post what you don't like and ask to revert things you don't like?
I'm not shooting any of your guys feedback down at all if anything....with respect its actually the opposite happening...by few of you telling me posting feedback from X doesn't count.

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I'm not sure anyone actually believes this to be a one-sided issue. There's "I love this, my character looks so much better now", "I hate this, my character is ruined" and "I like some parts and dislike others" on the forums, on Twitter, on Reddit. (And probably more platforms but I don't frequent those.)
All of them have a range of opinions.

I am also of the belief that most people who are unhappy are not against options. Personally, I don't like how my character's mouth looks in the Benchmark because it's very different. I have seen people express how happy they are with the exact same new mouth.
If there was a way to implement both options, old and new, then the majority of people would be happy. I don't know how realistic adding Character Creator options is at the moment, but maybe the devs will see all the feedback, both positive and negative, and decide that this should be a priority going forward.

Lastly, I personally do not think posting curated Twitter links that are not your own thoughts are feedback. I told you that you are welcome to share your own thoughts, on your own character. There's a few posts in this thread that are basically "Here's my character, they look so good now! Thank you!", but this is all about their own character. I don't see the point in posting a stranger's feedback.

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Originally Posted by Plushy

I don't think its fair for you to judge what feedback is more worth.
Negative feedback usually is more detailed than positive, someone saying "I love my au ra, she's so pretty now" is still good positive feedback because it tells them what they did was right and people like it. People usually don't go into full on detail about why they like something unless they're writing a formal review.
But overall. I don't think you or me have the right to say what type of feedback is more worth. SE asked for feedback and people are giving it no matter how they do it. If someone says "I love my au ra, thank you se" that's feedback for them.

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I do like that you decided to ignore the other parts of the discussion about giving people options and the part about me saying that not everybody necessarily wants an Au ra that is pretty.

Regardless, we can definitely judge the quality of feedback. It isn't that feedback is some weird mystical affirmation or rejection of which the quality is up to the reader. The more detailed the feedback is the better it is. And "Is so pretty" is not very detailed. If they went into detail as to what they like compared to before similar to what people here do as to what they dislike compared to before. Then the two would be equal.

After all, "Is so pretty" could be an affirmation of the improved textures and higher amount of polygons in the sculpt. But this is not what people here complain about.

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Originally Posted by mk-sein

Isnip.

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Nobody is going to head to their twitter to just say "hey you're wrong btw" and harass don't be silly, you're just being hyperbolic. More so when its so random and twitter has things like blocking and hidden comments, nobody is going to risk themself getting banned on X just because someone said they like their au ra on their own post.

and not to be rude but I think we're reading two different things. Multiple(meaning not everybody) people are not really happy here and if you look on the JP forums nearly every last au ra player isn't happy and wants something changed.
I think you're under the impression I'm saying people are being super rude with their opinion when that's not what I'm saying at all or what I mean by -one sided- when I say one sided I mean people are in favor of having things adjusted instead of just being happy the way it is. I'm not implying said person giving criticism is being bitter, rude and nasty.

and I'm sure people are not against options.
I never suggested or implied that they were and I have posted my own thoughts...I even posted two different threads of mine.....I feel you didn't read my post or click any of the links. Not to sound rude but I think you're just replying to me for the sake of disagreeing with me if you missed the two things I posted that shown my opinion as I said multiple times I love the new au ra look and more so the eyes. Those are my thoughts.

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Originally Posted by Sekhar

I do like that you decided to ignore the other parts of the discussion about giving people options and the part about me saying that not everybody necessarily wants an Au ra that is pretty.

Regardless, we can definitely judge the quality of feedback. It isn't that feedback is some weird mystical affirmation or rejection of which the quality is up to the reader. The more detailed the feedback is the better it is. And "Is so pretty" is not very detailed. If they went into detail as to what they like compared to before similar to what people here do as to what they dislike compared to before. Then the two would be equal.

After all, "Is so pretty" could be an affirmation of the improved textures and higher amount of polygons in the sculpt. But this is not what people here complain about.

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I didn't ignore it. I just didn't address it because I don't disagree with more options. If you read my other threads I even suggest the best option is to add two sets of pupils and also...the bigger pupils won't automatically make your au ra pretty depending how you look...
Also I disagree about your opinion of Feedback.
Feedback is good no matter what unless its clearly a troll reply.
If you give someone food and you ask if you like it, you would no doubt accept both a detailed reply and a simple, "yeah its actually really good." as that tells you "ok guess I'll keep making it like that then".

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Originally Posted by Plushy

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Heads up, this will be my last post on this particular topic as I'm tired and I'm getting too off topic for my personal comfort.

I was being hyperbolic, yes, but personally, I would be really irritated if someone reposted my thoughts on a forum I might not even have access to.

I admit that I haven't really looked at the JP forums as I can't read enough Japanese to truly grasp what they're saying.
And I don't actually think that, no. We have the same definition of one-sided, I just think the forums are less one-sided than you are saying. They do lean a certain way though, I won't deny that. I assume this is because unhappy people are more likely to speak up than happy people.
I'm guessing that you agree with that part, hence you posting those links. I just believe posting those links was not the right way to go about it.

I didn't click every link, but I did look at a few of them, and I do want to state that I am happy that other players are happy. People should be happy with their characters. Unfortunately, not all of us are, and that is why we are happy. I am in no way upset someone else likes the changes, though.
I may have missed parts of your initial posts because I personally look for pictures in a feedback thread like this. Not everyone does that, and it's probably not a good habit to have, but if there is just a wall of links that ends with "I love my character!", I will skim that post. Of course, it's okay if you don't want to post screencaps of your Au Ra, but to me, feedback on a visual upgrade that provides no visuals feels kind of useless. The devs might think differently, though.

So, I am happy you are happy with the changes. I only wish for you to realize that posting dozens of Twitter links was not the best way to give feedback, and that is why people are irritated with you. Have a good night (or day).

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Originally Posted by Plushy

I didn't ignore it. I just didn't address it because I don't disagree with more options. If you read my other threads I even suggest the best option is to add two sets of pupils and also...the bigger pupils won't automatically make your au ra pretty depending how you look...
Also I disagree about your opinion of Feedback.
Feedback is good no matter what unless its clearly a troll reply.
If you give someone food and you ask if you like it, you would no doubt accept both a detailed reply and a simple, "yeah its actually really good." as that tells you "ok guess I'll keep making it like that then".

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Ignoring and not addressing are the exact same things with different words but I am glad you address now that you would prefer if they don't just change things but instead add these changes as options. Also, the "pretty" is an argument you brought up via the random people on twitter not me. I am simply pointing out that through your choice of defenders you are completely ignoring that some people do not want their character to just look pretty. Some peoples character might have something else than just look pretty and they feel that is no longer represented by the more puffy faces, the big eyes etc.
If they made all these changes options I would be singing their praises. But they didn't, hence I see no reason to not criticize their choices while addressing what exactly I dislike in order for them to understand my points.


Also to your second part, I never said that the feedback is bad. I said it is worse than the feedback given here.
To take your weird food analogy it is like the difference between:
"It is good" versus "It is not that good because you added too much salt and kept the food too long on the stove."
Independent of the intent behind the feedback, one allows you to hone in on the issue/good things far more accurately than the other. Hence the two types of feedback are not equal.