Tank IDENTITY

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyth

People once made the argument at one point that 'defensive tanking' and parry builds could be used to optimize healer dps as well, back in ARR. It generally doesn't work out that way in practice, and there's no clear cut way to determine a dps equivalence for it.

---

A parry in a given fight will nullify, on average, X damage prior to non-passive mitigation. Determine, perhaps based on prior fight (HP) resource graphs, the likelihood that the parry could leave one at a survivable health value through that 20% (previously up to 25%) mitigation and thus forgo any healers' average maximum spammable GCD heal. Then, look at the potency of an average healer's filler attack. The product of that chance any attack potency is, pretty much, the parry's rDPS value.

Yes, every parry could end up affecting only an auto. But that is what is what the averages are for.

The problems with additionally defensive builds are primarily just that

1. they have traditionally been tuned too low to be competitive in rDPS (not a fundamental issue at all, but a balance issue), and
2. the value of any GCDs of healing saved is impossible to tap into when no optimized healer is using GCD healing regardless --at least outside of ReciAdloDeployment (which is, again, not a fundamental issue, but a contextual one).

Yes, there is a further issue of "illusion of choice": As content hits more than X over a fight, increasing the rDPS value of a random parry therein, it becomes optimal and short of that point it's inferior. But that is already true for every stat, and typically with far less context-dependence. That's not a problem fundamental to defensive builds, but an incidental problem from content tuning relative to available (free) healing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by XRuecian

So, i have felt this way for a while now..,

---

This is a rather unusual take. "rage, vengeance, destruction" are what I would associate with Warrior, not Dark Knight. Also, "parrying with their weapon" I'd associate with PLD and GNB, and to a lesser extent DRK. You can't really parry all that well with a massive two handed axe...

DRK should be a shield focused tank more than a healing one. In normal FF lore, and in the general "unholy knight" archetype, they don't tend to heal themselves. They tend to use their health to fuel dark magic attacks. The sort of subtype dealing with blood magic might use drains, but that's not exactly what DRK is for the MOST part. Its lore is using darkness to shield people (basically like REDACTED did for the planet, if you think about it)

GNB is the closest thing FFXIV does have (and likely will have) to a dodge/evasion tank. Dodging doesn't work well as a mechanic because when it "misses", you get splattered. RNG hell. But of the tanks, GNB has the most parry related skills, which makes sense given their lighter armor and focus on swordplay. PLDs also have a high defensive option with block from their shields and parry from training with swords. The GNB identity is being a high speed/focused tank, with a bit of evasion, and a lot of swordplay. Also a gun.

I think WAR's thing with its self-healing should be more thought of as "advanced Second Wind" and "Adrenaline Rush/Fight or Flight" (despite PLD having an ability by that name, WAR is the one that leans into the aesthetic). You're thinking Man-At-Arms type Warriors. The FFXIV WAR is clearly much closer to a Berserker. And Berserker classes tend to have a TON of self-healing and health boosting type attacks.

Healing for PLD makes sense, but not for DRK. Dark magic is about inflicting damage and status effects, and rarely, mitigating damage (shielding) not healing.

.

I will say that they are all different and there's some homogenization, but PLD is the holy warrior who shields, defends, supports (buffs), and (with some limits) restores/heals. WAR's motif is that of a berserker with some capacity for boosting morale with their superhuman feats (hence "healing"). GNB is an aggressive tank with a high speed of attack and augments defense of self and party members with its special weapon (stuff like Auroa is supposed to be a special type of shot from the gunblade, I believe). And DRK is an armor clad warrior that turns darkness to defense and enforce justice on the forces of evil, cladding themselves and their allies in shields of darkness to protect the weak while wielding the darkness to inflict damage upon the unjust.

Each, presently, fulfills these roles pretty much to a T, honestly.

.

EDIT: For the record - what I mean by DRK being a shield tank is barriers/mitigation (like how SCH/SGE are "shield/barrier healers"), not like PLD carrying a shield to block with. So "barrier tank", if you prefer. PLD also gets some of that from Holy magic being more defensive in nature. DRK should, all things being equal, be a bit more offensive and debuff focused while PLD is more defensive and buff focused.

Dark knight should be a shield focused tank, that'll be pretty dope. Sometimes I always associate DRK with blood death knight from WoW. I love it and I miss it. Each Tank in WoW is soooooooo different from one another, each have their own unique flare as a tank i.e. blood death knight, Brewster monk, Unlike FFXIV where everything is pretty much a standard cookie cutter, it doesn't help the enjoyment of the game when the uniqueness only happens at near max level.

When I think of a Warrior, I think of one jumping right into the heat of battle, the more dmg he takes the more adrenaline he has, the higher dmg he does, heals faster too. I guess the thing that ruins the fantasy in the current war is that he heals off the dmg he does instead of being buffed to receive more healing.

As for PLD, I never really liked the whole Templar or aspect of holiness fantasy.

As for Gunbreaker, it should seriously be a damn DPS. It already behaves like one, everything about it is dps. I'm not sold on it, it doesn't give me the tank vibe.

I don't really see where people get this idea from that warrior's identity is selfheal, nowhere in the "berserker" fantasy do I imagine healing myself. I think a mechanic like the Brewmaster Monk's Stagger from WoW would be more appropriate. The warrior works themselves into a frenzy, so full of adrenaline during battle that they don't even notice the wounds they're taking immediately, instead slowly bleeding out.

Of course converting direct damage into a DoT effect would be almost impossible to balance in XIV, being able to survive tank busters without any mitigation because it can't instantly flatten you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sorzai

As for PLD, I never really liked the whole Templar or aspect of holiness fantasy.

---

thats...literally what a paladin is in tabletop/videogame fantasy though. even irl the piety aspect was pronounced.

Berserkers have been traditionally tied mechanically to self-healing (both direct and from damage dealt), mitigation as damage delay (WoW Monk's "stagger"), fixed-value partial mitigation (like a TBN, but only absorbing a third of incoming damage, such that it's less potent but smoother/more lasting), and deathless states (can't die for X seconds). It's also been able to sacrifice life or mitigation (rolling advantage both on its attacks and attacks against it, etc.). It's never really been a one-mechanic-pony across its appearances.

While I'll agree with Lyth and others that it should focus more on and around one such mechanic if that mechanic can be tied into integrally, interestingly, and (sufficiently) expansively, there's no need to axe other mechanics outright.

Personally, I'd love to tie more among Warrior's play back towards that sanity aspect, especially since, right now, Warrior doesn't feel battle-thrilled or enraged so much as simply... direct. But that'd require a return to tanks being jobs first and templates second as to allow the idea that tanks shouldn't be barred from being able to trade out survivability in certain moments for greater effective gains for their party on the whole.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absurdity

I don't really see where people get this idea from that warrior's identity is selfheal, nowhere in the "berserker" fantasy do I imagine healing myself.

---

It's not that the identity is self heal, it's more that the identity is "RAGE YOU CANT HURT ME DIE." Berserkers IC wise simply ignore the damage they take in battle, and in game mechanics, this translates into self healing because we all know immunity would be ridiculously overpowered even moreso than self healing.

EDIT: Source for Berserker lack of feeling pain: Warrior 30-50 quest line

I don't see how paladins are the only ones fulfilling our fantasy when the unga bunga vikings have better healing capabilities.

DRK definitely kinda missed the identity boat, but I'd say the other tanks hit on it pretty well. WAR is the batshit insane berserker that just won't die, PLD is the holy knight that protects and heals, and GNB is a combo mad lunatic with a mix of Squall and Seifer's movesets and a penchant for condemning everyone that plays it to develop carpal tunnel after a while.

WAR - Near unkillable Berserker

PLD - Holy Knight

GNB - Squall/Seifer with focus on Renzokuken

DRK - Wants to be a WAR and a PLD but sucks at both. Fun to play in PvP tho

BLU - DIAMONDBACK