Focusing on Bard *only* in the context of FF14 is how for the past 8 years we had a Summoner that barely summoned. Consequently that's how you turn off people who know what a Bard is and what a Ranger is since FFXIV's Bard is confusing. They sing, but oh not really. They have archery attacks...that turn into magic at later levels? It makes no sense.
Turn half of Bard's kit into music themed abilities and just release a Ranger for those who want it. Continuing in this direction ultimately leads nowhere.
Is bard in a bad spot right now?
Printable View
-
11-06-2021, 03:05 AMaveyond-dreams
-
11-06-2021, 03:29 AMAyche
Look, Summoner was already jumping from one trance to another so triple down on that design is not starting from scratch, it is just triple down on the whole demi business, do not get drunk on some notion of winning this one Final Fantasy iconography battle.
They did not invent A WHOLY NEW WEAPON FOR SUMMONER FOR ONE. -
11-06-2021, 04:53 AMJirahAnd what of archer? It was very clear and deliberate far before 1.0 that BRD was gonna combine attributes of both Archery and song. Seems all you care is visuals and to that I say, I have nothing to argue with someone with such shallow concerns. Move on and main DNC or BLU if you dislike their result this much but the job will never be a full 100% all songs all the time BRD. Creating ranger is a utter waste of a job slot, why else don’t you see many people arguing for a “Thief Job” away from NIN, or a “Fencer Job” away from RDM.Quote:
Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams
-
11-06-2021, 05:34 AMaveyond-dreamsThis is why I want them to release a ranger job so both class fantasies are covered.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jirah
I care about the job's aesthetic and feel and Bard currently looks bad, and its gameplay would be much improved by giving its songs more strength. Since it's literally called a "Bard." That's why I and many others want to see things like Foe Requiem return.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jirah
Rangers and Thieves especially are still wanted by a non-insignificant number of people. A ranger or hunter is a prominent class in WoW, where they use bows, traps, poisons, pets, etc. Like I'd expect an archer class to. Thieves are another common archtype that a lot of people gravitate towards but Yoship for whatever reason said the class was not "heroic" or worthy of the warrior of light or something along those lines. Frankly I disagree with him completely since if the wol is too "good" to be a thief, then why is Reaper a thing?? A mystic knight/fencer is also something people want and ask for regularly as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jirah
The notion that an Archer/Ranger could not stand alone as its own thing is laughable, given how many games have classes just like it. In any case I cannot wait for Bard to receive it's eventual rework once the devs realize that there's no way forward here without something giving way: the songs, or the excessive focus on archery and arrow magic. -
11-06-2021, 06:16 AMJirahSMN can barely stand on its own with its very short sighted concept, which again I’m almost sure it won’t get much of anything in future expansions due to the job themes essentially cornered now that Dots are out.Quote:
Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams
Can you get a spreadsheet of 20+ skills for “ranger” that is both unique and fits in the games themes? If not it cannot stand on its own. This goes for BRD aswell take away its arrows your literally left with nothing. if those games did it better then play them instead as FF14 isn’t “most games” rather than wishing for BRD doom for your personal enjoyment. And even if it can it’s totally underserved as better jobs are more worthy. Soon we won’t get any new jobs and id hope the community can pick future jobs very carefully rather than half baked ones.
With Archer being divide into a new job like SMN and SCH, they already did this mess with arcanist and it aged universally bad.
And for the 10th time this thread “it’s origins have both archery and song unified as one job” it’s origins for the game specifically is already locked. Just main SMN, the job will never be all songs unless they delete Archer which would require a lot of early leveling shuffling and entire guilds to be repurposed.
Off topic but reworks have been a curse ever since SHB and givin how BRD plays, I really really don’t wish that on it. They’ll water it down and doll it up for people that only like pretty pretty visuals, to enjoy. Like SMN, or DRK, or MCH -
11-06-2021, 06:44 AMaveyond-dreamsI hate to break it to you but the overwhelming majority of people disagree with you there. Summoner with its rework stole the show at the Combat LL and practically eclipsed Reaper and Sage. It was clear to the entirety of the internet that a pure Summoner is better than poison mage with summons on the side, same applies for Bard. Loads of people loved seeing that song aura from Radiant Finale when it popped up-because they want to play a Bard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jirah
It is not my job to provide job concepts on the fly. That task belongs to the battle team. Regardless if you want to go see standalone archers or rangers go look at WoW, BDO, literally any MMORPG with fantasy elements.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jirah
The reworks that happened needed to happen because vast majority of people found issues with those jobs. Most people do not miss Dark Arts spam, nor do they miss the convoluted overheat mechanic. As for Summoner that job was a complete joke to most people who know what a Final Fantasy Summoner actually is and thus avoided the FFXIV version like the plague despite in some cases (like mine) where it was our favourite job in other games, especially FFXI.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jirah
Well, only 2 years till 7.0 where hopefully Bard will become a real Bard and hopefully we get a cool Ranger class on the side. I look forward to playing both, and I won't miss these concepts that just don't work. This is definitely some eye-opening news to some of the more closed-off communities on these forums but there's more people looking in from the outside that see the problems than people looking from the inside. I can only hope at last we get listened to for Bard just like how they listened to us for Summoner, to the result of much fanfare and positive reactions. -
11-06-2021, 06:48 AMRika007
Yeah look, I'm 100% on the side of Bard needing some QoL and even more things added to its music identity, but I am 100% AGAINST the idea of ever destroying it's current identity as a hybrid Bow/Musician. I like that hybrid setup. There was NOTHING wrong with that hybrid setup when BRD was loved in Stormblood. The job does not need to be thrashed by a rework when it already had one of the most well done reworks in the games history. Bard does not need a re-do. It sure as hell doesn't need it's identity split in a way that is going to require every single lore book and quest related to it completely reworked. The central rotation of DoT, GCD FIL, oGCD filler depending on song does not need to be changed, only the things and aesthetics that go around it.
BRD got dumpstered in Shadowbringers not because there was some massive failure at it's core. It fell because of several little issues all adding up to one big problem combined with finally having some valid competition. Fixing the little things handles that. I'm someone who has no issues with the rework that was given to SMN, but lets not get rework happy. Bard's core workings is fine. -
11-06-2021, 07:17 AMDPZ2I haven't run across a true Thief in an MMORPG. WoW's rogue had pick pocket skills, but I never ran across anything worth stealing using that tactic in the 10 years I played the class, so the skills were mostly useless. People who play a thief class in tabletop RPGs aren't constantly "stealing things". They're disabling traps and finding secret doors, skills I find to be a bit on the weak side when running through a Trial or raid in this game. Rogue, moving on to the Ninja job, on the other hand, is not weak, does not stoop to dishonesty during gameplay and seems to take up the fantasy trope most MMORPGs have. Even D&D stopped calling them "thiefs" over 20 years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams
The bow wielding class in WoW was called "hunter", not ranger. If you went pet-free, you were a Marksman. Traps and poisons were the venue of the Survivalist, not the Marksman. Marksmen are like, well, Machinists. -
11-06-2021, 07:41 AMgeorge357ranged dps
i have all my ranged jobs capped my favorites are brd mch dnc mch and dnc have good rotations and deal decent damage hope they get some upgrades in the new expanison.
-
11-06-2021, 07:52 AMBeddictAnd going in your direction involves pissing off all the people that like the current idea of what BRD is. I think SE has failed at executing the Job through gameplay in ShB and likely going into EW, but I still like the core idea of an Archer that saw the battlefield from afar and began singing to deal with their sorrow, their bowstring the original instrument. That's solid, it's a good base with enjoyable lore, and a proper FFXIV BRD would have a mix of offensive archery and supportive music. The problem is that SE had the absolutely stupid idea to gut the supportive side of the BRD kit, probably to make DNC look like the favourite child going into ShB. The solution should be to make it so BRD has more meaningful support options to emphasize the music side of their Job lore. The three passive Songs are not meaningful because they are a part of the normal DPS rotation, Warden's Paean is not meaningful because SE rarely makes cleansable debuffs, Troubadour is not meaningful because it's been homogenized with Tactician and Shield Samba. Compare that to Foe Requiem which people want back because it was meaningful, with BRD having freedom in when to use it, and Refresh meant you could extend Foe, regen MP faster for a shorter Foe sooner, or use Refresh to benefit your Healers. There were choices available.Quote:
Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams
Also, out of curiosity, do you realize exactly how much bullshit would be involved in separating BRD into two separate Jobs? Seriously, think about it, assuming said split happens in 7.0:
- What Role will Bard be in and what Role will Ranger be in? If Bard stays in the Physical Ranged Role then it has to compete with Dancer on the support side of the Physical Ranged DPS, and if it goes Healer as is commonly suggested then it loses basically all of it's glam potential as it gets stuck with generic priestly robes. Red Mage already has the same problem where it gets nothing but generic black robes in the Caster Role, would suck to see Bard have the same problem in the Healer Role.
- What happens to the Bard Job Lore, how much will be retconned in order to fit the new Job? What happens to published material, such as Encyclopedia Eorzea Vol. I and Vol. II?
- What is the new Job Lore for Ranger, and how does it fit into Archer? You're asking for the split to happen, clearly Ranger has to build off Archer which actually makes it an ARR Job and needs a full set of Job Quests. Can't go from level 30 Archer to level 80 Ranger with a 50 level gap of absolutely nothing. This would meaning designing far more Job Quests than normal, unlike other expac Jobs.
- What Weapon will Bard be using? Most likely Harps given previous Bards from the franchise, but it brings up the followup question of what happens to Bard Relics and Artifacts? Bard is still an ARR Job, do they get a fancy new Zodiac Harp, Anima Harp, Eureka Harp, and Resistance Harp? What about Failnaught and Fail-not? Or does Bard just lose everything, condemned to being a "new" Job which means goodbye old Relics and Crafted Primal Weapons.
- What happens to certain Ranger Bows? Do they take over the current Relics? And do those Relics even fit with Ranger? Of course not, why would a Ranger be running around with the Artemis Bow or the Blade's Muse. Does SE say screw it and leave these unfitting Weapons with Ranger, or do they go in and redesign stuff, tossing the original designs into the garbage can? If Bard keeps the old Relic Quests with newly designed Relics, does Ranger get a brand new set of Zodiac/Anima/Eureka/Resistance stuff? Nothing would really change in terms of lore for Eureka and Resistance Relics, but Zodiac Relics in particular had a lot of Job specific lore related to the Relic.
- How will the new Bard play? Does it keep the rotating Song mechanic, and will that be too similar to Ranger if they share the Physical Ranged Role? If it moves into the Healer Role, would that Song mechanic even fit or do the Songs maybe become basic Heals? Whatever happens, we're looking at a huge amount of new abilities as all the Archery-themed abilities are removed from the kit, and a fundamental rework on how the Job even plays if the worst case scenario occurs and Bard moves into the Healer Role.
- Ranger will presumably be taking over Bard's current kit, but it needs a good chunk of work there. The Song rotation doesn't make sense, so those have to get changed to something different, the Job Gauge needs to be reworked since the musical notes no longer make sense, you seem confused over the magical attacks at later levels so maybe those need to get replaced, current support options like Battle Voice need to be changed. There would have to be a substantial rework to most Ranger abilities to bring them in line with the new theme, in terms of both visual effects and sound effects.
- What happens to the support actions in the Ranger kit? Does it remain a somewhat supportive Job in the middle of Machinist and Dancer? If Bard stays in the Physical Ranged Role does Ranger lose it's support to become closer to Machinist? Do the support options even make sense for Ranger, since to me it seems like it'd be a rather selfish Job rather than a supportive Job.
- Again, what happens to the people that like the lore of the current Bard? Does Yoshi-P go up on stage during FanFest and give them all the middle finger while telling them to look forward to their favourite Job getting murdered? I sure as hell wouldn't be happy.
Splitting Bard into a new Bard and a Ranger Job is dumb, stop advocating for the destruction of a Job that's already loved by many. Drives me up the damn wall every time someone makes this idiotic suggestion because apparently people that like the current Bard don't exist so who gives a shit if the current Job gets pitched in a bin. As someone else said in a previous split Bard thread, "everyone winsexcept for the people that like the current Bard but screw those people I guess."