It does not have to be "ermagaawd savage" all the time. I know the tiny skilled (and usually quite vocal) minority would like that but that would render the game inaccessible to the rest of the playerbase. There is more than black and white here and I think SE could beef up the dungeons w/o needing to trow savage like instagibs, reaction times and enrages at people.Quote:
Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi
I am not asking for savage dungeons, I am asking for new content not to be tuned so low that it feels like outdated content the moment it is released because I happen to walk around in the casual tome gear.
I think trials are mostly fine as is.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiyahArp
I thought we were talking about 4man content. That has indeed become braindead easy, where I can ignore many a mechanic even when the dungeon is brand new. Imho, that is wrong. When the dungeon is new it should be a bit meaner and over time, as people get the new tome gear, it gets easier.
As for 80% DPSing: I have been in S5 - S7 yesterday, and frankly, I am at a loss as to how people manage to do 2K DPS in there. I was so busy trying to keep everyone alive that I barely managed to squeeze in around 800ish.
Yeah sure, the ELITE can DPS like crazy b/c everyone has the content on farm and knows exactly what they are doing. But if you enter in there with a normal group that still struggles with mechanics, any healer is plenty busy saving butts and not busy throwing stones. If they leave that content as is and castrate the healers, savage will feel like a nightmare.
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04-11-2018, 05:14 PMGranyala
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04-11-2018, 05:52 PMAlleoI would dare to say that there has to be something that WoW did great otherwise you wouldnt have millions of people playing it. And if those before it were sooo great why did they not have the same big amount of subs? Maybe because those gameplay parts were more for a niche and not the mass?Quote:
Originally Posted by RiyahArp
Also about content being harder: Thats probably quite subjective but imo other than extreme primals and savage nothing is hard in this game. Honestly if you dont have certain DPS checks with bosses you could do most of the dungeon half-asleep and with probably two skills and still beat it. The problem is that a lot wont try to get better at their job if they can get most of the things done without at least trying a bit. And I think most people in this thread have more of a problem with the healer class being more of a DPS class than a healing one. I mean if you are a pure healer and your group is at least decent you will stand around for most of the time..not sure how this is great gameplay. (And as a scholar you have even less to do thanks to the fairy) -
04-11-2018, 06:08 PMGranyalaJust an FYI: WoW tried what some here suggest. Dungeons were like FF-XIVs in Wrath of the Lichking, in the subsequent expansion, Blizzard severely beefed up the content. Suddenly you had soft enrages because healers ran out of mana, debuffs were mean and needed to be dispelled ASAP or peps would die. Mobs needed to be CC'd, casts needed to be interrupted, boss mechanics mattered enough to be life threatening, the whole shabang.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alleo
For me, who went in with guild groups it was awesome and fun. For the genreral population that got thrown into it via party finder it was a nightmare. So much so that Blizzard was forced to cave and nerf stuff / make the following dungeons considerably easier.
To be blunt: once a MMO introduces easy content with great rewards it is no longer possible to go back to meaner content w/o a massive backlash. Contrary to popular elitist belief, most people will NOT rise to the occasion and try to better themselves when faced with hard content. They will simply whine a bit and eventually quit. -
04-11-2018, 06:29 PMRemusDidn't people rise up for Ozma? I remember people calling nerfs for Weeping City but people were told to "git gud" Ozma wasn't hard but for the general DF when it released was hard for people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Granyala
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04-11-2018, 06:51 PMGranyalaWe don't know that. We do not have empirical data about how many people actually stopped trying. Also, people did not "git gud". I remember many a catastrophic group that was dragged through by a few raiders, esp once Ozma targeted the right people. I believe that gear influx did way more to ease the burden than people gaining skills. Hell even at the end of the contents lifespan, people still stacked meteors, it was just that healers like myself knew how to compensate for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Remus
My above statement about people not rising to the occasion was actually uttered by a WoW Developer. I'm sure he had hard data about how many people actually "got gud" and defeated the content and how many were left as corpses on the side of the road. -
04-11-2018, 08:37 PMGleipniThey rise fora laughable content,for me,ozma was super fun,at least had to reason to do that raid,but the FF comminity is just lazy people that want to play but nor invest 1% on their brain in the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Remus
You people tell,what was so hard with the meteor,the thing that did most of the wipe ? you just have to spread them,yet,it was a "nighmare" for people.
At some point,SE should stop making thing more and more easy and people should just invest whats left of their brain into doing things right -
04-11-2018, 08:49 PMRiyahArpI think I did it once on launch or so, then just skipped it. Keep in mind 24 mans only give one token per week to upgrade, and you could also do hunts instead for the same token. A lot of people just waited for the tokens to be uncapped to bother doing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Remus
If they switch to more of a pure healer playstyle, they will make the game overall harder since DPS is optional, healing is not. People really seem obsessed with making this game harder despite the evidence when the game gets harder, you get a lot more wipes and abandons. Trials isn't too hard, but I still see people ditch groups often enough that if healing suddenly became harder, I'd start to worry.Quote:
I think trials are mostly fine as is.
I thought we were talking about 4man content. That has indeed become braindead easy, where I can ignore many a mechanic even when the dungeon is brand new. Imho, that is wrong. When the dungeon is new it should be a bit meaner and over time, as people get the new tome gear, it gets easier.
As for 80% DPSing: I have been in S5 - S7 yesterday, and frankly, I am at a loss as to how people manage to do 2K DPS in there. I was so busy trying to keep everyone alive that I barely managed to squeeze in around 800ish.
And yeah, I think people here are full of crap about how easy things are. Not every healer has managed to memorize the fight that well save on the easiest things to do that level of dps.
A lot of success is timing. WoW just happened along at the right time, just like Facebook did. Use in the net was booming, broadband made gaming more feasible, you had more people interested in pc gaming overall as pc prices went down etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alleo
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04-11-2018, 11:25 PMGranyalaDefinitely played a part in the WoW fluke, aye. But WoW also started the trend of not having to sacrifice your RL on the altar of progression in order to get anywhere. Well, except for PvP ranks. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by RiyahArp
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04-11-2018, 11:57 PMStormfurThey did, and they were. I think the only content that was nerfed because of community outrage was the Steps of Faith.Quote:
Originally Posted by Remus
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04-12-2018, 12:12 AMKaldeaSahalineIn what world are min ilvl dungeons "savage"? Min ilvl dungeons are still trivial...Quote:
Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi
Great post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariannaid
Riyah - You claim no one ever posts any ideas for alternative solutions, but when someone does you ignore it? Why did you ignore my responses to you?Quote:
Originally Posted by RiyahArp
You can definitely find room to DPS, even in pugs. I mean heck, in one of the other posts I made, someone literally had a WHM put up 3k DPS in a pug. It can be done. It just requires smart experienced play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Granyala
I don't think a single person here has advocated for "castrating" healers and leaving content as is. That's a ridiculously silly notion.
I think there's a space between "meaningless filler crap heals" and "powerful heals" that could be obtained for a builder/spender playstyle and have it be fun and impactful.Quote:
I absolutely agree that we should not be casting a 2-3 button DPS "rotation" for pitiful contributions of 1/3rd of a red class 80% of the time.
Fill downtime with Risk-attached DPS? Sure that is fun. I always like the fact that a healer basically performs 2 roles in FF XIV and I do not want that to change.
A builder / spender kind of thing is exactly what I do NOT want though. This made the holy priest class in WoW so annoying and frustrating for me. I don't want to cast near meaningless crap as "filler heals". As I already stated: that is by no means more interesting than casting braindead DPS spells.
I still maintain that healers are largely fine and that it is the content itself that is tuned way to lax (savage excluded).
In fact, I'd argue that lilies on WHM could be retrofitted fairly easily for this. (keep in mind my paradigm I discussed last page) In that you can conserve MP by "spending lilies" in lieu of more expensive spells, or even have those powerful expensive spells simply cost lilies.
Another idea could be "consuming lilies" replenishes MP or makes next cast instant or something. I.e. builder/spender concept with triage healing paradigm. You'd want to avoid overcapping lilies, so you could burn them on powerful DPS spells if no immediate triage is needed. Risk vs. Reward could be DPS spells actually grant more lilies (or higher %, etc.) over a short period of time, in that a WHM decides if players can manage not being triaged for 2.5-5s while they DPS to accrue some fast lilies to burst heal for an upcoming mechanic or stabilize, etc.