What's with all these people single-targetting during big pulls in dungeons?

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Originally Posted by Dameron

Here's the big problem. On a melee DPS, Goad is an absolutely useless skill to have. The odds that you're matched with another melee DPS is rare, and tanks don't ever seem to run out of TP.

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As a Warrior I'd like to interject and say as a Warrior, I appreciate immensely when someone uses goad.... but as the person you quoted said.... NO ONE USES IT. *WARRIOR RAGE FACE* We especially need it on bigger pulls. So to say Goad is useless...No...I was in a party once with an Ast, and two melee DPS that had Goad. BEST RUN EVER. So please, consider equipping it, you make warriors cry a bit inside :D

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Originally Posted by silverlunarfox

As a Warrior I'd like to interject and say as a Warrior, I appreciate immensely when someone uses goad.... but as the person you quoted said.... NO ONE USES IT. *WARRIOR RAGE FACE* We especially need it on bigger pulls. So to say Goad is useless...No...I was in a party once with an Ast, and two melee DPS that had Goad. BEST RUN EVER. So please, consider equipping it, you make warriors cry a bit inside :D

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I goaded a warrior once and he flat out stopped the run and stared at me for like 3 whole mins. We thought he was gonna DC but then patted me on the head and hugged me from that point on. What was funny about that I thought he was mad when I goaded him.. as I looked and was like " he's TP is gone" - goaded-. And to be fair to the poster above you, he only mentioned it was useles cause all the other content you rarely run out of TP. But still... I agree... people should use it. It helps ALOT.

I find it extremely rare that someone uses Goad. Did a run of the leveling roulette on my BRD last night, got Haukke Manor. Was paired with a DRG. They used Goad on me when Tactician wasn't available, I also used Invigorate when my TP was low on the AoE pulls. That was the first time I had seen someone actually use Goad since Stormblood came out that I can remember.

As a summoner, I cannot spam AoE.
I have a few AoE spells, but they are locked behind a single target rotation for the most part, and the one AoE that isn't, has a cooldown.

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Originally Posted by Dameron

Here's the big problem. On a melee DPS, Goad is an absolutely useless skill to have. The odds that you're matched with another melee DPS is rare, and tanks don't ever seem to run out of TP. Add to that melee DPS basically can't run out of TP on single-target Trial bosses either, and the situations in which Goad is useful becomes so rare that Leg Sweep, Diversion and Feint are infinitely more useful to take aside from the mandatory four skills Second Wind, Invigorate, Bloodbath and True North.

The only real solution here would be to drastically reduce the TP costs for melee AoE. I for one think it could easily be halved and it would still be balanced.

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The only tank that shouldn't be running out of TP on AoE pulls are DRK. PLD and WAR both can run through their TP pretty quickly if they're doing more than merely establishing threat on that kind of a pull.

And I'd say that Bloodbath is hardly a mandatory skill for dungeon content, the same with Leg Sweep. They're nice to have, but you don't need either skill. You can argue the same for Goad, but I find that Goad tends to benefit a run more than having Leg Sweep or Bloodbath, personally.

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Originally Posted by Cenerae

And I'd say that Bloodbath is hardly a mandatory skill for dungeon content, the same with Leg Sweep. They're nice to have, but you don't need either skill. You can argue the same for Goad, but I find that Goad tends to benefit a run more than having Leg Sweep or Bloodbath, personally.

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I would argue the other way. 1 in every 50 tanks stuns monsters. Even PLD with Shield Bash rarely if ever stuns anything. When I was leveling my PLD I would stun anything I could that forced melee DPS, or even myself, to move away to avoid damage. My melee DPS always have Leg Sweep, Invigorate, and Second Wind(for when I'm an idiot and take damage I should have avoided so the healer doesn't need to heal my idiocy). If something that should be stunned isn't by the time it gets to about 1/3 left to cast, I will throw down the stun myself.

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Originally Posted by sonicadventures

I goaded a warrior once and he flat out stopped the run and stared at me for like 3 whole mins. We thought he was gonna DC but then patted me on the head and hugged me from that point on. What was funny about that I thought he was mad when I goaded him.. as I looked and was like " he's TP is gone" - goaded-. And to be fair to the poster above you, he only mentioned it was useles cause all the other content you rarely run out of TP. But still... I agree... people should use it. It helps ALOT.

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omg ive so been there. that run that had all the goads, everyone got lots of hugs. its nice to pull big and just overpower the shit out of everything (with steel cyclone too). things just melted. I do agree not all content needs it...but some do... *wipes away tear*

But I mean I used to also main Ninja, so, I always found a use for Goad, so for me its always an ability thats nice to have. But thats personal preference. I get everyone won't feel that way...

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Originally Posted by Avatre

I would argue the other way. 1 in every 50 tanks stuns monsters. Even PLD with Shield Bash rarely if ever stuns anything. When I was leveling my PLD I would stun anything I could that forced melee DPS, or even myself, to move away to avoid damage. My melee DPS always have Leg Sweep, Invigorate, and Second Wind(for when I'm an idiot and take damage I should have avoided so the healer doesn't need to heal my idiocy). If something that should be stunned isn't by the time it gets to about 1/3 left to cast, I will throw down the stun myself.

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There's only one enemy in SB dungeons I've noted that really needs to be stunned. The final trash mob in Sirensong, where you want to stop it from charming the group. Otherwise, it's a nice thing to have, but it's not what I'd ever call a *must have* skill. And again, the same can be said for Bloodbath (since it's sustained healing, but you have a healer to provide that. Or you should, at least).

I think Goading a co-dps or the tank (where applicable) is more beneficial to the run's efficiency overall. Unless they're not AoEing, I guess. But fortunately, we are able to switch role skills on the fly, and there's nothing stopping you from cutting Goad for something else if it's not going to get used.

Why don't you just ask the people in your group instead of having a huge fight on the forums over a non issue? So your run was 10min longer than usual. Who cares.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

You anecdote is unclear -- exactly what level of the instances were you running in? Was it a leveling roulette? A 50/60 roulette? A Guildhest? Did the tank indicate they were going to pull 10+ mobs beforehand and get agreement from DPS and Healer? Were the 10+ mobs firing off their own AoE rings? Was one of the melee DPS a Dragoon?

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I answered those questions in a couple of posts.

DR Experts. Both were Kugane Castle actually.

It doesn't matter what the tank says. If there are more than 4 mobs on the tank, the DPS should be using AoE. How the tank decides to pull is realistically at their own discretion. They are the ones pulling. If a healer can't handle the pull size, it's up to the healer to either speak up or the tank to adjust and pull less. This doesn't change the fact that when there are 4 mobs or more on the tank, the DPS should be using AoE.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

Oh! I see it now! The party ends up taking less damage in the encounter using AoEs rather than burning down one mob at a time. Thanks for explaining it in such a clear manner.

Of course, there will always be exceptions. Some mobs are just too dangerous to not burn as fast as possible. For example, mobs which take control away from your character.

Anyroads, I appreciate the time you took to answer my question. I'll improve my play.

*writes down* In general, AoE at three mobs or more.:)

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This is the exact purpose of this thread. Thanks for learning something :)

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Originally Posted by Aomine1992

This argument is so dumb I see this maybe never in duty finder majority of people knw their class limitation oh I will put this out there you can argue with me all you want but a DRG pre level 70 that is spamming aoes besides dragon fly and Geri when they are up is bad..The potencies for both death spike and sonic thrust are way to weak and do as much damage a death blossom :/ and lets not forget you wont even hit all the mobs

So its about efficient and aoe isnt always efficient you guys need to pay more attention to what your composition is, two melee don't equal a SMN for aoes so why pull just as much as if you had one.I see tanks pull huge groups and have like a MNK and DRG as dps and wonder why the healer went OOM or the tank dropped before the mobs

Also not blaming healers at all but you are the true masters of aoe and you are essentially a caster, melee that arnt a SAM (they get no excuses) arnt doing much aoe Damage unless they get those weak groups like in doma castle

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Composition doesn't matter. I run with 2x melees often and clear in 15ish mins provided the other melee is using AoE as well.

All DPS have AoE, and using AoE on 4 or more (3 on some jobs) are more efficient than single target.

You want me to use DRG as an example for you? 3x GCDs..

Single target = True > Vorpal > Full
= 150 + 240 + 440
= 830

4 mobs = Doomspike > Sonic Thrust > Doomspike
= 130*4 + 170*4 + 130*4
= 520 + 680 + 520
= 1720

10 mobs? Even if you're not hitting ALL of the mobs with your AoE, as long as you're landing it on 4x than you're better off.
On top of that, you can now extend BotD with Sonic Thrust which allows you to spam Geirs / Nos as well... So you don't even lose out on that damage.

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Originally Posted by Conquistadork

That would depend on the job and play style. As in my case, when I'm using SAM, I tend to do a one single combo on each pull to get my dmg up buff first and then proceed to do my AoE combos. It also depends on the type of mobs you are fighting, if there's one of those huge monsters that love to do AoEs, I will focus it first to remove it as fast as possible.

Some classes have better ways to deal with group mobs than others, so I see why they would feel more comfortable doing single combos, is it the best viable option? perhaps not, but you can't expect everyone to play the same way as you, or your FC mates do.

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Not expecting people to play to a 95 percentile standard.
Just hitting AoE skills on big packs. I don't really think it's a big ask.

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

Or, as is the case with Samurai, your AoE combo just isn't that effective. The only two attacks that don't have damage falloff for samurai is Kyuten, which requires Kenki to use, and Fuga, which hits like a wet noodle.

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Samurai AoE is actually not too bad :/ See the math in one of my earlier posts that completely disregards Iaijutsu. It's still quite a substantial gain to AoE with Fuga > Mangetsu/Oka over single target.

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Originally Posted by Dameron

Here's the big problem. On a melee DPS, Goad is an absolutely useless skill to have. The odds that you're matched with another melee DPS is rare, and tanks don't ever seem to run out of TP. Add to that melee DPS basically can't run out of TP on single-target Trial bosses either, and the situations in which Goad is useful becomes so rare that Leg Sweep, Diversion and Feint are infinitely more useful to take aside from the mandatory four skills Second Wind, Invigorate, Bloodbath and True North.

The only real solution here would be to drastically reduce the TP costs for melee AoE. I for one think it could easily be halved and it would still be balanced.

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There are only 3x DPS classes (out of 9) that don't use TP for AoE.
Yes, Goad is highly useful.

Other DPS is one of those 3 DPS classes? No worries, then just switch it out at the start of the dungeon if you really want.
There are far more "less useful" skills in the arsenal as Goad.. It should practically be mandatory.