Did you know not performing as you think another player should in a group

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Originally Posted by Laerune

- If someone is underpreforming, tell them, give them tips on how they can improve. If they wont do this, then either ignore and finish the dungeon or kick them out.

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Or just leave them alone maybe?
Unless they intentionally do some very questionable stuff like goint into 70 content in 60 lvl gear, who cares if people there underperforming. If you want your idea of "fun" being forced on others, there's is party finder where all specific moments like "top dps, 2 fail kick" can be explained beforehand.

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Originally Posted by Gwaeron89

Or just leave them alone maybe?
Unless they intentionally do some very questionable stuff like goint into 70 content in 60 lvl gear, who cares if people there underperforming. If you want your idea of "fun" being forced on others, there's is party finder where all specific moments like "top dps, 2 fail kick" can be explained beforehand.

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If the underpreformer is oke with casting ice magick only and in turn slowing the rest of the group, then they will be kicked. Their idea of fun does not overpower mine and mine does not overpower theirs, but if the majority of the group agrees with me, then its goodbye!

If an underpreformer wants to underpreform and slow the group, then they too can go make a group via the party finder and enjoy their moments.

Incoming wall of text. Meant to reply to some of this stuff earlier, but got caught up with stuff and forgot about it. :v

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Originally Posted by ArcanoJones

If its a PUG group formed through the duty finder. It is there to help new players going through the story find groups to complete that content. That is its purpose. Why do you think the reward is so massive . I get almost a full level for doing just 1 dungeon. It is motivation to do that content.You get a massive reward and then you expect to punish the people that make that reward possible. New players. If you want groups where everybody knows exactly what they are doing and have been in the dungeon and know it like the back of there hand. Don't do roulettes. You are kicking people for being new in a place that is created for new people. What a giant contradiction.

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I just want to point out, with regards to Destatiredux's example, he was talking about a Level 70 dungeon (Temple of the Fist). People should not be teaching the very basics of a job to someone who is at endgame. The rotation of using Fire spells until you don't have enough MP for any more, switching to Blizzard until full MP, and then switching back to Fire spells is the foundation of a BLM's rotation and extremely basic, not spamming Thunder on mobs. People should not be having to teach that to BLM's that are running level 70 Expert Roulette dungeons. And this goes for any job as well. It's a little different if they had been telling him how to use newer Stormblood skills, or fitting together a more optimal rotation for level 70 using said level 70 skills, but not for what Destatiredux pointed out. When a BLM reaches level 70, they should most definitely know how counterproductive it is to spam a single spell such as Thunder or Blizzard (though this is sadly not the case with quite a few of them, and really, a BLM should know by level 10 not to just spam a singular spell). Doesn't help that the BLM in question sounded like they responded with hostility when questioned why they were just spamming Thunder spells and not touching fire or ice spells. Hostility makes it less likely people will want to help someone, since the person in question probably wouldn't listen to the advice given anyways.

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Originally Posted by ArcanoJones

I imagine there is more to it than that. People tend to exaggerate the circumstances of things to make them self look in the right. Thats human nature. I never take either sides account as total truth.

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And that's fine, but you still seem relatively new to this game, and it is surprising the amount of players you will meet in endgame content (and I'm not talking about just Expert Roulette dungeons, but Savage and Ex primals as well) that don't know the basics of their job and, quite frankly, don't really care to learn. There are, sadly, individuals out there that are perfectly okay with performing sub-optimally, and allowing the other 3/7/23 people in their party/raid/alliance carry them while they do next to nothing. I honestly don't have any trouble believing the Thunder Mage story because it's already common enough seeing Ice Mages, or poor DPS that don't want to AOE large trash packs, don't use the very basic self-buffs of their jobs (looking at you, DRGs that don't use Heavy Thrust or BRDs that don't upkeep Straight Shot), etc.. Which is an extremely sad state of affairs, but if people aren't willing to listen to advice or constructive criticism and willingly improve, then there isn't anything that can be done about it.

I'm all for helping people and extending advice on how to play jobs that I know inside and out optimally, or how to do a certain fight/handle certain mechanics, but I won't waste my breath on an individual that is reluctant to even listen, and reluctant to learn. And I most certainly won't waste my breath on people who are rude for no reason when you're trying to help them.

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Originally Posted by ArcanoJones

Who is defending it I am simply saying there is no way to verify that the guy never casted any other spell. Or whether this guy is being completely honest about his story of this person. And if the group never wiped because of it. It simply doesn't matter anyway. DO you know every single spell that every single member in an 8 man group casts. Or even a 4 man. Are you that aware of what every single person is doing every single second. I doubt it.

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It's actually very easy to pay attention to individual's rotations in a duty. When I notice that things are taking longer than they should to die, I start looking at the DPS in the party and see what they're doing wrong. Example: tank does the huge first pull in one of the level 70 endgame dungeons, and they're taking an extremely long time to die, even though I am AOEing my heart out. Glance over at the DPS and see them sitting at full TP (melee/physical ranged) or full MP (casters), then I can very easily tell that they are single-targeting, and not using their AOE combos to make things go down faster. Zeroing in on the cast bars in the party list isn't exactly difficult to do either, for those who are casters (I have a tendency to watch other RDMs that I run with to see if they actually use Scatter for large pulls--quite a few of them continue to just single target Ver spell things).

It isn't always about "Well, we didn't wipe, so it's okay." I honestly dislike this mentality, because just because a party didn't wipe doesn't mean that it makes suboptimal play or behavior right. I could queue into an 8-man raid or Ex trial on my AST, and proceed to strictly DPS only, not help heal, not help raise, not draw cards, etc.. But just because my party does not wipe does not mean that my play was optimal or considerate to the group, especially the other healer. These parties and duties are team efforts, and if a player isn't willing to play in such a way that is beneficial to their team, then they don't have any place in that party.



With regards to Vote Dismissing, majority rules in a party. If you (using general "you" here), were kicked from a 4-man party, at least 1 other person aside from the individual initiating the kick agreed that kicking you was a viable option. If you were kicked from an 8-man party (be it from an 8-man raid or a 24-man alliance raid), then at least 3 other people decided you were a burden to the group. This logic also applies to speedrunning versus taking it slow: if the majority of the party are in agreement that one or the other is what they want to do, and there is 1 person who is reluctant to do what the majority want, unless that person is someone who is completely new to the dungeon (new tank or new healer, since new DPS don't have as much responsibility compared to those two roles with regards to the flow of a dungeon), majority decides. If the majority decides to kick the reluctant player, then it's not an abuse of the Vote Dismiss feature.

The only time I consider a Vote Dismiss abuse is if there is conspiracy by a pre-made to kick a player just because they can do so. I do not consider 3 people deciding to kick a sub-optimal player that is reluctant to listen to advice, reluctant to improve, and responding with nothing but hostility an abuse of the feature.

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Originally Posted by Gwaeron89

If you want your idea of "fun" being forced on others, there's is party finder where all specific moments like "top dps, 2 fail kick" can be explained beforehand.

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This is hypocritical since the person under performing is forcing their "I don't care to play properly 'fun'" on others anyway. Why is he exempt?

You cannot use these type of arguments for this stuff at all because of pure hypocrisy.

If one person is allowed to play however they want then everyone else can too; which includes possibly telling someone they are doing things wrong or offering tips or even using the vote kick.

Person A: "It's my sub I play how I want"
Person B: "Okay, it is also MY sub too, I'll vote kick who I want"
Person C: "I agree with B, sorry, but goodbye A"

It's fair and equal treatment. Person A can play however they want, but so can Person B and Person C.

If you want to do whatever you want, ignoring the rest of the people in your group, then be aware the rest of the people in your group can also give you the same treatment back.

I rarely kick people, but this is just the simple truth of the matter.

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Originally Posted by xJimmehx

I said i think youre all wrong. I dont really need to dismiss any points. I dont know what your comment is even about because you erased my quote and replaced it with "snip." It doesnt really matter though. I disregarded everything you said the moment you wrote "people like you." I stated that i think everyone is wrong for thinking they have a right to "expect" anything at all from others(beyond intentional griefing obviously). I still stand by that 100%. If people cant deal with difference in personality and playstyle, why are they playing an mmo in the first place? At the very least they should be using party finder so they dont have to get in a queue with somebody else who has been waiting for a likely 20 minutes to join only to kick them.

Edit: If they were griefing its one thing but I dont agree with kicking somebody for being stupid/ignorant/inexperienced or inefficient. Its duty finder. Not end game raiding. As I've stated in the past, I think its weird that people expect thousands of people in an online game to all act exactly the same. The most beautiful thing about us is how different we all are.

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When I do anything in this game, I expect people to at least act with some shred of common courtesy. The mentality of "it's my sub and I'll play how I want; I don't care about the other 3/7/23 people I'm grouped with" is not courteous at all. It is fine for people to all want to play differently, act differently, etc.. But when you are running content with a team, you need to act like a team player. Thunder-spamming BLMs making runs last longer just because they want to play that way and don't care about the time of the other people in the group is not being a team player. And if 3 other people are in agreement that they don't want to deal with such behavior, they are allowed to vote dismiss Thunder Mage.

The Party Finder reasoning also goes both ways: if someone wants to run Expert Roulette spamming only one spell, not AOEing large trash packs, or generally just not wanting to play in such a way to make the run fast, smooth, and efficient, then they are also free to recruit other players that don't care to carry them.

"Casual" content or "hardcore" content, both points I make still stand. Be courteous regardless of the situation; be a team player. If you want to play a certain way, you are free to use DF and risk not meeting the expectations of the majority of a group, or you are free to use PF to find other like-minded people. That goes for everyone.

http://i.imgur.com/fAUOr2c.png

I find helpful people PUGs 99 percent of the time. And the ONLY time ive seen anyone kicked from a dungeon is when they REFUSE to play their role or they continue to do dumb stuff that causes wipes.

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Originally Posted by Khaidal

http://i.imgur.com/fAUOr2c.png

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Lmfao. Exactly.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

The person up for dismissal doesn't even see the vote happening, let alone get to participate in the vote. Assuming the members of the party who queued together vote in agreement, they'd still need 3/4 or 5/8 members preformed in order for the group to have uncontestable kick control (or kicktatorship, if you will).

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Nope it is 2 or 4, so a pair can kick out someone in 4s for example.

So when you have 2 pairs together, it is whoever gets the vote up first wins, if they are in conflict.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I just want to point out, with regards to Destatiredux's example, he was talking about a Level 70 dungeon (Temple of the Fist).

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It's actually very easy to pay attention to individual's rotations in a duty.

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I'd also like to point out that Destatiredux's example simply said "Rhalgr's", as though everyone playing the game immediately understood that it was one of the two level 70 'extreme' dungeon instances. A little bit more background would have meant fewer followup posts.

To your point about rotations, it may be easy for you to pay attention, but that does not mean it is easy for everyone. Personally, I have more than enough to do with my rotation and efforts to avoid the instance mechanics.