Curious on opinion. Smn or Mch. Which would you pick?

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Originally Posted by Minorinz

When all the songs are combined including foes will leave no party member not benefiting from them.

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Sure. One subset at a time, since not all songs will be up at the same time and you will run out of MP singing.

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Is there any job that can do that?

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DRG has Battle Litany, NIN has Trick Attack. Both of those affect the entire party at once, rather than a couple people at a time.

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If all jobs become the same in terms of dps then why won't people go for ranged all day every day?

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Simple. For utility other classes bring.

Bards can't buff each others' damage. DRG can. Bring a DRG to increase your piercing damage.

Ninjas can buff slash damage if you don't have a WAR. Bring a NIN to increase the damage your tanks put out, plus Trick Attack for everybody.

SMN can revive the healers if the healers die. They're the only DPS that can do that now. Bring them along for the cushion. And bonus, they get a benefit from Foes!

Why would you give up all that "lovely utility" just because Bards might be able to put out equal damage under optimal situations?

I think everyone is getting the wrong message here, this stationary stance was never supposed to up your damage consistently to reach that of a caster. It is a dps booster, yes, and the dev team is fully aware that you will be trying to activate WM during the whole fight and this is where your mobility comes into place. If WM is supposed to boost your damage to that of a caster's during that 2-3 mins or even the whole fight then something is terribly off with the Job. Also, this means that no bard will be willing to go mobile for the sake of the damage that WM offers while being stationary, this ruins the whole synergy between all the jobs making bard a full time caster. If they buff WM some more then we can forget about bards doing mechanics all together and have the healers/smn do it which is a great burden. Bard's dps is relative to how much they interact with their surroundings, for example:

1- Nothing to interact with: Highest dps output. WM active. [advantages: Ranged] [Disadvantages: Immobility, CDs GCD clipping] - Fair
2- Mechanics: Moderate dps output. WM is not active. [Advantages: Ranged, Mobility, Weaving] [Disadvantages: None] - Excellent
3- Party utilities : Lowest dps output. WM is not relative. [Advantages: Selective party-wide buffing] [Disadvantages: May not be able to satisfy all party members at once, Dps penalty is not equated to the support provided] - Fair

What SE can do here is balance those advantages and disadvantages even though none of them is really broken. I would say the first one needs a little tweaking, also the last one to help with the job's flexibility.

Edit: in the end, any good raiding team will need a bard/machinist because their role is irreplaceable. The damage output is not that low as many people think even with their utility, and I absolutely get amazed when our bard knows when to time their songs, move, and ease on the mechanics so everyone can have a smooth time doing their job. If a bard can do all of this while maintaining awesome dps, then that bard is literally the most valuable asset to any party. ANY PARTY.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

Sure. One subset at a time, since not all songs will be up at the same time and you will run out of MP singing.

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Which is why the brd/mch will have to communicate with the party members and think on how to utilize their songs correctly. Communication is key, friend.

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DRG has Battle Litany, NIN has Trick Attack. Both of those affect the entire party at once, rather than a couple people at a time.

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They do not have the same impact as tp/mp/foes. They are also situational meaning not everyone times their buffs with them other than their opener due to the short duration. Foes last longer and can be communicated and timed. Also like I said, battle litany is literally a 15% rng buff, trick attack is worth more.

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Simple. For utility other classes bring.

Bards can't buff each others' damage. DRG can. Bring a DRG to increase your piercing damage.

Ninjas can buff slash damage if you don't have a WAR. Bring a NIN to increase the damage your tanks put out, plus Trick Attack for everybody.

SMN can revive the healers if the healers die. They're the only DPS that can do that now. Bring them along for the cushion. And bonus, they get a benefit from Foes!

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You do realize drgs buff bards/machinists and not any other job right? So if im bringing a drg instead of a bard what good will that do? lol
Smn has a nice res but it eats their mana but why would anyone jump off a cliff to begin with?
Nins goad/slashing buff/trick attack is lovely but guess what? drgs and monks are on top of it (dps) and I don't see nins complaining about it. That's because it's balanced. Also nins buffs are not make it or break it like bard's utility. whats the use of a nin if monks/tanks run out of tp while the slashing buff is out? they can't dps anyway. Goad can only target one person at a time so that won't help. Nin is very limited, dear.


Sorry for the double post, had to clarify!

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Originally Posted by Minorinz

They do not have the same impact as tp/mp/foes.

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You asked which other classes can buff the entire party. I answered. Your subjective opinion on how useful they are doesn't really affect the question.

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So if im bringing a drg instead of a bard what good will that do?

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Shall I do some simple math for you? You asked why anyone would bring anything but BRD/MCH if they were equal in damage.
If 4 BRDs do 1000 DPS each, they will do 4000 DPS together.
If 1 DRG is doing 1000 DPS and 3 BRDs are doing 1000 DPS and the DRG can buff all their damage by 10%, then they're all ending up doing 1100 DPS, for a total of 4400 DPS.

I'd have thought that should be obvious.

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why would anyone jump off a cliff to begin with?

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Things happen.

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Nin is very limited, dear.

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Which is why I didn't say to bring 4 NIN. I said A NIN. For its utility.

You shouldn't try to be condescending. It doesn't work when you're missing simple concepts.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

You asked which other classes can buff the entire party. I answered. Your subjective opinion on how useful they are doesn't really affect the question.

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I'm being realistic, the tooltips are right there! Also instead of taking what i'm typing out of context, take the whole question set and anwser it instead of being selective about it:

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When all the songs are combined including foes will leave no party member not benefiting from them. Bottom point is, brd/mch do buff/assist anyone and anything in the party including pets. Is there any job that can do that? Jobs that can refresh your resources anytime that is required on a PARTY WIDE range? Does that make sense to you now?

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Bard has THREE different songs, no, excuse me! They have four and they will be fixing the 4th one. Ofc this doesn't include battle voice. Then again, I'm being subjective right? Because see, drg is using one for the whole party and another one that is directed to 2 other jobs. Sadly, drg cannot refresh your resources, the only other job that can is nin and that's single target, limited to tp only. I'm going to ask again, can any other job do that? don't tell me about other jobs' utility that can't refresh resources because that was never what I asked for. Although what you mentioned can't touch bard's utility because of how useful it is to the party. Anyway, I want to know if there is any other dps job that can do what bard or mch do for the whole party, tp/mp/foes wise?

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Shall I do some simple math for you? You asked why anyone would bring anything but BRD/MCH if they were equal in damage.
If 4 BRDs do 1000 DPS each, they will do 4000 DPS together.
If 1 DRG is doing 1000 DPS and 3 BRDs are doing 1000 DPS and the DRG can buff all their damage by 10%, then they're all ending up doing 1100 DPS, for a total of 4400 DPS.
I'd have thought that should be obvious.

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I was being ironic, you see no one wants to bring a bard/mch in the first place, guess that was hard to get, my bad.

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Things happen.

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Subjective!!1!

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Which is why I didn't say to bring 4 NIN. I said A NIN. For its utility.

You shouldn't try to be condescending. It doesn't work when you're missing simple concepts.

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After playing this game for 2 years, I have never seen a single party progressing through any of the difficult content without a bard. AT ALL. Although I have seen parties go mnk+drg all day everyday, you'd think this would imply something but I guess not.

Missing a concept? lol talk about missing context!

So what your saying is the Dragoon is doing 1100 after applying its debuff. If a dragoon is not present a bard is doing 1000 Damage. Equality at its finest.

You know what is worthless now? tp/mp regen.

SO much downtime in every boss people don't know what to do with their resources.

Maybe savage will have some actually long fights without downtime.

MCH at least provides worse dps support than drg/nin.

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Originally Posted by Minorinz

Also instead of taking what i'm typing out of context

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I'm not. You asked two questions. First, who can buff the entire party, and second, who can restore everyone's MP and TP.

I answered the first because it's an easy answer. I ignored the second because it's a biased question that limits scope and asserts your own subjective opinion of how useful they are as an important factor.

Bards can increase damage of casters. NIN can increase damage of slashers. MNK can increase Blunt damage (and decrease INT while they're at it). DRG can increase damage of Piercing. Foe's is, therefore, not "unique" as a damage increase utility because it's just another thing that increases a specific subset's damage. And is objectively less useful on a boss as it won't have (near) 100% uptime as compared to everyone else's since they'd be part of their rotation.

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don't tell me about other jobs' utility that can't refresh resources because that was never what I asked for.

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Bottom point is, brd/mch do buff/assist anyone and anything in the party including pets. Is there any job that can do that?

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Question marks indicate the end of a question. If that wasn't the end of your question, you did it wrong.

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Although what you mentioned can't touch bard's utility because of how useful it is to the party.

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Subjectively.

Which is more useful in things that aren't raids, though?

A TP song that isn't getting played because the fights aren't lasting long enough to play them, or a debuff on the boss to make the boss take more damage, or a buff that increases everyone's crit chance?

I'll remind you that raiding is a minority of the game. Not everyone raids, not all dungeons are raids. Raids are not required to progress through the main scenario, nor are they available in the roulettes. And you'll ignore it because that's all that you think is important while ignoring the other 95% of the time.

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After playing this game for 2 years, I have never seen a single party progressing through any of the difficult content without a bard. AT ALL.

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That's nice. And largely irrelevant to anything I've said.

If you consider "difficult" the current hardest content, I've done all of them without a bard or mch. Quite easily, in fact. None of my ravana farms had either.

Their songs are not needed anymore.

Though it -is- nice to do more damage with a bard in the party, as a SMN. But not...necessary. Maybe savage fights are long enough to need the regen but...no content requires any class anymore.

Though perhaps (depending on dps) having a melee lb for checks like ravana are helpful, but not strictly necessary.

[QUOTE=pandabearcat;.[/QUOTE]

This is mostly in context of savage though, which is up in the air with how the fights are and if you need to or not.

Also, class synergy. A blm/brd does more than brd/brd. A nin/drg does more than drg/drg assuming absolute equal damage. What you don't want is blm/blm doing more than brd/blm or nin/nin being better than drg/nin because of TA uptime