People need the party grind, please bring it back and get rid of fates.

Fates are a cheap alternative to the party grind. Fast xp and levels. Problem is, people don't learn how to play in a party environment. You see threads with "omg this 42 tank in copperbell didn't know anything, how do you get that far and not know how to play your job?" Easy, because SE designed that you could easily xp up on fates. There should be more real world non instanced partying in this game. This game needs the dunes. People complained about it, but generally they knew how hate management worked and what to do when playing with other people. Get rid of fates and force people to party. Sure they'll complain, but they'll be better players for it.


The party schema needs to change too. You have 2 tanking jobs and one healing job out the door, plus 5 dd jobs. 6 man would be a much better ratio, with tank, healer, 4 dd or 3 dd and a support. It's like they are concentrating on making this game "raid ready" and "pvp ready" without ANY consideration for what you do before that.

Sure everyone runs through a story line, but everything is so guided that you couldn't screw it up if you tried. My 9 and 10 year old daughters play the game with ease, and do all the quests. The game needs to teach players how to play the game. Do each dungeon once, you can be fighting ifrit having only played with other people 3 times for roughly an hour each. That's not enough to learn how to play well.


tl;dr 6man parties instead of fates will fix a lot of problems.

No, we do not need to get rid of FATE!!! WE DO NEED an alternative to FATEs, aka please for the love of god, BUFF the xp at lower level dungeons, make those dungeons drop more various crafting materials (at the tune of 2-5 items almost every mobs), and make mobs drop gills (20-30 gil per mobs would be great). Dungeons are pretty dead now, which needs buff really bad. They could also double the rate you are getting exp from regular mobs, maybe by giving you some sort of daily scrolls free for 20k bonus xp.

Dailies are coming in 2.1 and they haven't really told us what kind of dailies they are. Maybe making 1 a level 15-32 dungeon that when completed grants additional exp/cash would be good. Get some high levels re-rolling lower content and they can hopefully help educate players on how to play in a party properly. Maybe they could have a couple to get people rolling through lower level dungeons like group them in 15-28, 32-44 or maybe even break them up more than that, but that way you would have those popping more often for people leveling up while the higher levels still get something worthwhile out of it.

Have fate and have party grind, what do you think people are going to do? They choose the easier one.

Party grind is not an obstacle between low and high level. It's where you learn how to play with others, properly, efficiently, and learn your job and it's role in a party.

Fate grind is an obstacle between low and high level, that you don't get anything from. You could remove fate and just click an npc for experience, and get the same skills you get from grinding fates.

Many people do lower dungeons once. That's not enough to learn anything. Experience point boost? You just want to get to 50 faster. There is a game to be played before 50, you know.

Get a group of 4 and do dungeons? The XP really isn't that bad, especially if you can clear them quickly with a good group. I've done no FATE grinding on my tank and healer classes with near-instant dungeon queues.

I don't see how that would fix anything. There's nothing in the open world you can do that actually requires any understanding of party roles and dynamics. It's all the same trash with dumb as bricks AI that dies in 2 seconds spamming your highest damage move. Same thing as FATEs.

Do you really think that forcing people to shout for a party during hours, so they can kill the same monsters for another few hours, would do this game any good?

I enjoyed the party grind in XI, you were able to utilize special places like sea and sky and with a group of friends go out and grind away and get tons of practice at you job.

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Zitat von nasomi

Many people do lower dungeons once. That's not enough to learn anything. Experience point boost? You just want to get to 50 faster. There is a game to be played before 50, you know.

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People need incentive or they won't do the content... you just pointed that out. EXP Grind parties are a thing. No one does them because it's faster to do something else.. like fates. Therefore since there is a lack of incentive... people don't do it. EXP/Money are great motivators and money is still something lacking end game for a lot of people. So a 50 doing a daily for a low level dungeon obviously wouldn't get exp, but they could get money and money can be the incentive needed to get people doing the content... the content that does exactly what EXP Grind parties do... kill mobs and learn roles.

Actually I would argue that in a 8 player party the EXP Grind party will end up like FATEs were you don't need to learn your role. They aren't going to just make a 6 player limit and create mobs designed to be so tough that only a party of 6 can take down. It's far easier to create a reason for people to run dungeons that enforce the same party/role mechanics.

>people don't learn how to play in a party environment
>FATEs are done in a party.
All of my what.

Fate monsters die instantly, you don't learn anything about hate management. Party fates don't have anything relevant to contribute to knowing how to operate in a party environment, where you have healer, dd, and tank. Take a fate party, which is typically all dd's, and put them in a dungeon, and they couldn't clear it because they don't have the relevant classes.

You take away fate, and people will party because it's how you xp. People will also learn how to play in a party, and you won't see all these "how do you get to xx level without knowing how to play" threads.

Nothing is stopping you from grabbing a group of people close in level and grinding on mobs higher level than the group. You can still chain and get tons of exp, and there have been numerous reports of people doing just so. This is already a perfectly acceptable way of leveling, but people just aren't doing it very much. The only thing SE could do here is add a method to level sync to the party leader or something so that its easier to form a group at the same level.

Level sync is something needed. Stupid that you can level sync in dungeons, duties and FATEs, but can't anywhere else. Would love to be able to play my high level characters with my lower level friends.

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Zitat von Dragonskin

Level sync is something needed. Stupid that you can level sync in dungeons, duties and FATEs, but can't anywhere else. Would love to be able to play my high level characters with my lower level friends.

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No, no and more no. I hate level sync, it annoyed me in GW2 and it'll annoy me here. Why work for a high level if you just get sync down anyway? It works in Dungeons & FATEs but not for killing mobs.

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Zitat von Animation

No, no and more no. I hate level sync, it annoyed me in GW2 and it'll annoy me here. Why work for a high level if you just get sync down anyway? It works in Dungeons & FATEs but not for killing mobs.

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What's the difference? Why does allowing a party to level sync outside of a dungeon or fate harm anything? If you have a friend that gets the game and you have full 50s... that limits you to just doing dungeons and fates with them. Boring... you can't experience the other 80% of the game with them because you are a 50.

It would help if you could actually find high level mobs out in the field. Once you're at cap it becomes a bit more difficult getting chains up which are what you need to make an XP party worth while.

I would rather have party grinds as well but what can you do.

Maybe as the game progresses in age there will be dungeons for every level which would be more like party grinding of old.

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Zitat von Animation

Why work for a high level if you just get sync down anyway? It works in Dungeons & FATEs but not for killing mobs.

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What if a person wants to play with a friend of a different level? What if you want to help a FC member with something? There are plenty of reasons a high level character might want to sync down. This option would also extend the lifetime of lower level content over the course of the game's run. AND, for people like yourself, it would be optional, thus you could choose NOT to level sync. If this were implemented though, it should only be a party option. A high level player playing alone should not be able to sync down to a lower level.

This is one thing that i don't really understand about the OP's supposition. You are asking for EXP parties to be viable, because it will allow players to more naturally learn the skills necessary at higher levels. But at higher levels, the difficult content comes in the form of dungeons, raids, and trials - all of which use non-standard party mechanics. FFXI style EXP parties (which is what I presume the OP is referring to) teach you about your roll, but in a very restricted context.

The most natural way to learn a skill is to repeatedly use that skill in the context it is meant to be used. Therefore, the best practice for dungeons would be lower level, easier dungeons that slowly scale in difficulty, would it not? This is something we already have, but in a non-optimal form. As has been said already, rather than eliminate FATEs, the best way to get people to learn their roles is to re-incentivize (this is so far off from a real word, I don't even know where to start, but oh well) dungeons.

What you are proposing, OP, is the way you want to learn to play your job. But your proposition is demonstrably less effective at teaching people their roles than systems already in the game. Now, I'll fully recognize the need to make these systems more appealing when compared to FATEs, but that is another discussion entirely. And lets not get started on whether or not Dungeons and FATEs are more, less, or equal fun as FFXI parties. I make no comment towards that; rather this is just my thoughts on a serious flaw in the OP's thesis.

Make those fate bosses a HNM or NM like in old XI days (i know everyone despises and hate XI)
But let them be killed like fates everyone can cooperate for the kill and even if they trow a heal they get a little bit of reward
(Exp,gil,seals,tomes)

But fates aside

I tried old school party in cohertas at lv 33 as a 4 man party just for the lulz
Out setup was whm war blm and brd and let me tell u it worked it was slow as hell but it worked
The exp wasnt that good 120-250 max if they buffed exp for 4-6 man partys in all areas people will learn their jobs and play efficiently
Also is another good way to prepare for dungeons and endgame in a more efficient way


EDIT: someone said that the better way to learn the skills is repeatedly (typo?) use the skill?
But what about some player that even understand their own abilitys
I had a tank in the wanderers palace and amdapor keep who didnt know about flash or shield lob
Only did fast blade- savage blade- rage o halone ober and over and over

I bet that guy didnt even read the description of the skill
But in goin to far

I myself am guilty of fating on some degree (dark devices and go go gorgimera)
But after that i leveled my jobs on dungeons and sone lolpartys i made
Because thats what i was acostumed for (typo typo everywhere)

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Zitat von nasomi

Fates are a cheap alternative to the party grind. Fast xp and levels. Problem is, people don't learn how to play in a party environment. You see threads with "omg this 42 tank in copperbell didn't know anything, how do you get that far and not know how to play your job?"

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Yes when the most asked for thing when it comes to leveling is an alternative to fate and the most suggested thing is repeatable quests or the quests re-opening up on every single job the best solution is more forced grouping in the vein of the old FF11 grind. No, you introduce forced partying to kill single mobs in a group of six and the player base will bleed out. Most won't complain. They'll simply leave.

You want to make grouping a bigger incentive and have people learn to play their classes? INCREASE DUNGEON EXP and give more reasons to re-run older dungeons/content.

Since when has grinding mobs taught anyone how to play their class well?

It can teach basic mechanics, yes, but so does soloing.

What you really want is for dungeons to give equivalent exp to fates. That way more people will play healers and tanks to get the fast queues, and therefore, they would get more experience for those roles in a practical setting.

Grinding mobs is not going to teach anyone how to play their class in a setting where they have to worry about preforming well AND dealing with boss mechanics.

I would like to see the two (and dungeons) brought more in line with one another because right now by far the fastest and at the same time easiest (and most mindnumbing) way to level is to FATE zerg. It's awful.

My proposed solution would be to increase rewards to clearing dungeons, and up universal monster kill experience a small amount. At the same time drop the FATE spawn time rate by maybe half to 2/3rds, but keep the rewards the same. This will encourage more people to take part in the other activities, but make waiting around for FATE's to spawn and zerging them much less appealing. However, FATE's will still be a boon for parties working together as they pop.

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Zitat von Haruka-Akemi

EDIT: someone said that the better way to learn the skills is repeatedly (typo?) use the skill?
But what about some player that even understand their own abilitys
I had a tank in the wanderers palace and amdapor keep who didnt know about flash or shield lob
Only did fast blade- savage blade- rage o halone ober and over and over

I bet that guy didnt even read the description of the skill
But in goin to far

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That exactly why repeatedly exercising a skill is important to learning. The more often you use a skill, the more nuance you will come to understand. Dungeons offer just as many opportunities as EXP parties for learning how a given ability works, if not more.

In the example you used, the PLD did not understand Flash or Shield Lob. This is because either he did not understand the text, or did not read it, and no one corrected him. In an EXP party, I doubt you are proposing that this would magically make him understand his abilities. Rather, I suspect you mean to say that his party members would inform him that Flash gives good AoE hate, and that Shied Lob is a good pulling skill.

This is just as likely to happen in a dungeon as it is in party. More so, I would expect, because parties in dungeons have a vested interest in going as fast as possible (not something I personally enjoy, but the desire exists). This pressures players to play to their utmost, resulting in some nasty behavior patterns at times but that is a subject for another thread. Gruffness aside, those players are going to inform the PLD in question that he is doing something wrong. He can then take that opportunity to learn something, or not.

You don't learn calculus quickly by practicing algebra. You don't learn to be a better dungeon crawler quickly by exping on monsters outside of dungeons. What the OP and those who agree with him are asking for is an experience, not because it's a better way of doing things, but because it was one that they prefer.

I actually quite like EXP parties, and I miss them myself, but I also strongly believe in calling a spade a spade. EXP parties will not make you a better dungeon crawler faster than actually dungeon crawling.

The only reason fates are over crowded right now is because the game is still new and people are leveling. Once more and more people level up the fates will be less crowded. Hell i went to the level 1-12 fate zones and was practically soloing them on my GLD.

It seems, at least on my server, that everyone fates well beyond the fate level, into their 40's, and syncing down just outside aleport. They level up, but never move, and simply start syncing. Level sync can be good, but for this, when I go to upper level fates, they're empty, where-as they have a hundred people running around outside aleport and grinding those forever.

I can see level sync being benefitial, but you do have hte ability to level every job on one character, why not switch to a different job. They introduced it in xi because most people had LOTS of jobs leveled well beyond the lower levels, and it was the only way to go back.

This isn't FFXI. Completely different gameplay mechanics.

Grinding mobs in old fashioned EXP PTs would not teach people how to play their jobs any more than FATE grinding does.

Just want to say FFXI classes does not involve anything more than auto attack and spam same skill chain for dps so don't give me crap that they learn how to play their classes. Matter of fact most smart players level thru fates and don't tell me they can't play their classes. I could play any classes with only few hour of practice to understand the skills mechanic. Fate got nothing to do with dumb people who can't read skills tooltip.

Weird... Aleport is definitely a popular spot on my server, but most people tend to go to South Blackshroud or Highbridge in Thanalan from 20-30, then Costa Del Sol till 35-40, then Coethras till 40-45, with Northern Thanalan being 40-50.

Then the last part... my point is what if you don't have a lower job? I have 50 arcanist, 50 thaumaturge, 34 archer, 32 lancer, 26 marauder, 15 pugilist and 13 gladiator. I have only been playing since launch and I don't put in the hours that a lot of people do... 2 months into the game's life and it won't take me that long to get all up to 50 since I get a 50% exp bonus on all my classes. What do you expect people to do if they have all 50s? pay for another character slot and roll an alt? That's not realistic when the level sync mechanic is already in the game. I should be able to level sync with lower level friends and enjoy content with them.

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Zitat von Pathetic

Just want to say FFXI classes does not involve anything more than auto attack and spam same skill chain for dps so don't give me crap that they learn how to play their classes. Matter of fact most smart players level thru fates and don't tell me they can't play their classes. I could play any classes with only few hour of practice to understand the skills mechanic. Fate got nothing to do with dumb people who can't read skills tooltip.

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I agree with this. I played my first 50 through the story and quests. All that is left is dungeons or fates for the most part. I'll be damned if I am going to wait 30-45 minutes for ONE dungeon pop on a DPS class when in the same amount of time I could have already gotten a level. Plus it's not that hard to figure out most classes and CM/Prae aren't that punishing either so it's not like you can't learn your class role at 50. Just stupid people can't, but they are stupid regardless of how they got to 50.

Once you hit 50, you pretty much got two choices, learn how to play you class anyway, or do something else.. I fail to see the reason for all the nerdrage around this. OK so you wiped in a dungeon cause someone is still learning the ropes. Get over it, and more importantly, get over yourselves.

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Zitat von nasomi

Party grind is not an obstacle between low and high level. It's where you learn how to play with others, properly, efficiently, and learn your job and it's role in a party.

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It'd probably get more people to stop being anti-social. Theres been a lot of dungeons/primal fights I've done lately where out of 4-8 people, only 1 talk, it's rare I even see people say "Hi" anymore. It makes me feel like people want to play mmos like single player games that just happen to have people in them.

No. Requiring a party for dungeons and raids I can understand (and being with a massive zerg during some of the more challenging FATEs), but requiring a party just to kill a level 3 mob was the hugest turn off for me on XI (and sort of the reason why I greatly turned off by MMOs thanks to the original EverQuest back in 2000).

I am sorry, you do not learn how to play your jobs in exp party grinding - it is just as dumb as doing FATE, instead of getting BIG xp at the end of every FATE, you now has to kill the same mobs over and over and over and over. Or trail a bunch of mobs and AOE them dead FAST. If you want to force people to learn how to play in party and get used to FF14 mechanic (run right, run left, dodge, kill adds, stun boss, avoid AOE) - then you MUST do the dungeons.

And right now, the dungeons has very little incentive for people to do once you are finish with your one main job since everything else you can learn later at endgame anyway. This has to change, FAST. They did amazing job creating a game for one person to experience it ONCE on first play through. It was rich satisfying and full of content brimming with personalities and atmosphere. Then you reached level 50, and that was that. This next patch 2.1 better be groudbreaking, which sadly it will not do much other than adding a few meager contents. It is currently over-hyped and does not exactly addressing all the things that needed to be done. I am very worried once patch 2.1 launches, it may disappoint a lot more people. But if you are willing to stuck it out, hopefully by patch 2.5 this game will have more variety. If you are still not happy, see you again next year :)

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Zitat von nasomi

It seems, at least on my server, that everyone fates well beyond the fate level, into their 40's, and syncing down just outside aleport. They level up, but never move, and simply start syncing. Level sync can be good, but for this, when I go to upper level fates, they're empty, where-as they have a hundred people running around outside aleport and grinding those forever.

I can see level sync being benefitial, but you do have hte ability to level every job on one character, why not switch to a different job. They introduced it in xi because most people had LOTS of jobs leveled well beyond the lower levels, and it was the only way to go back.

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Your server has got some really dumb people. If they are level syncing in aleport then they are doing it wrong.

Party grind? Like in FFXI? Heeeeell no! I do agree that FATEs are too much atm but thats no reason to devolve this game 10+ years just because of that. OMG that was excrutiatingly boring just to watch a friend do that for hours on end. No, that style of gameplay was killed by WoW, thankfully, and should never ever come back.

Only thing I could agree with if to have the class quests require players to finish specific dungeons in order to advance.

Also for those that hate fate grinding so much, just turn on your TV/DVR/Netflix and watch TV shows or movies while doing it. I guarantee you time will fly by :)

No, I'm quite sure it's okay as it is...

I suppose dungeons could use a small pick-me-up when it comes to rewards, however. Either way, eliminating choice is never a good thing. Allow players to make their own decisions on how to level up. Forcing people to dungeon crawl to 50 is inherently selfish to certain types of players.

They just have to make exp and loots better for lower level dungeons. Have more armour sets that look good that can be modded for late game later on. The only dungeon low/mid game I grinded was Brayflox for obvious reasons.

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Zitat von Luvbunny

No, we do not need to get rid of FATE!!! WE DO NEED an alternative to FATEs, *snip*

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Yep, need FATE Alternatives for sure..... like open dungeons ;)

I'm hoping between the daily bonuses and the tool to form parties on local servers (why can't people just seriously use what's already there?) that more people will want to do dungeons. Right now the big deterrent to doing dungeons is the queue times for DPS. Tanks and healers can more or less get in fairly quickly, but FATEs are still a faster alternative to gaining XP I believe. I gained two levels the other night doing leves in Quarrymill by the time a Totorak I queued for appeared for me (yay DPS queue times) and yet it only yielded me a third of my level for 30ish minutes.

The sad thing is I hate healing so much that I just want to grind FATEs to level up CNJ and avoid dungeons like the plague. Not that I ever plan to heal seriously or anything, but it's just one of those things where you feel compelled to level it just because you can.