[dev1035] Are PUPs the only loved ones?

[Leonlionheart]

[Seiowan]

OK, Cure 5 answered, the answer is NO. See the reply in the scholar thread. And btw, I'd kick any smn from my pt who used a spirit for any reason other than ele siphon. if you want to cure me break out Levi or Carby, you were "hired" for your damage output-if you want to heal too /whm and break out cure 4.

Is this a bad time to mention that spirits can proc NMs in Abyssea if you're lacking a Black Mage? There ARE reasons why you'd use a spirit at times, so it's a lousy reason to kick someone from a party. It's also possible to get a newly summoned Light Spirit to cast Curaga IV on the party with decent gear and skill.

That said, they aren't the most useful tools outside of Elemental Siphon. That's why, if anything, I'd like to see SE making them useful so that people have more reason to use them. Considering their hefty costs, they SHOULD be worth using. They cost more to upkeep than an avatar!

I'd personally advocate allowing the use of Blood Pact Rage to pick which spells you want the spirit to cast. That would at least make them suck considerably less, even though their nuking power still has a lot to be desired.

[Alhanelem]

Is this a bad time to mention that spirits can proc NMs in Abyssea if you're lacking a Black Mage?

Good luck getting them to cast with the right timing. It's hardly even worth trying except as a desperation move because you can't control when it casts.

That's why, if anything, I'd like to see SE making them useful so that people have more reason to use them.

Until gimmick uses were added later, Spirits entirely existed to pad the summoner's spell list (And give players without the Zilart expansion some summons besides carbuncle). They only have special purpose uses with good reason- they should not be stealing thunder from the avatars. If they did better damage, you'd use them over the avatars. If they buffed/debuffed better, you'd use them over the avatars. The avatars are supposed to be powerful beings. Why would a generic elemental spirit ever be stronger? TL;DR: Spirits are fine for their current uses.

[Greatguardian]

Summon a physical manifestation of the gods of Vana'diel?

Summon an elemental construct?

I wonder which of these is meant to be more powerful.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Well, degraded manifestation, since it still gets its ass kicked by a crab.

Just not as badly as the elemental construct does.

[Atomic_Skull]

I couldn't help myself.

[Greatguardian]

You're my hero.

[Soranika]

You'd have better luck proc with spirits in Voidwatch than you would in Abyssea... just saying from experience. Spirits aren't without their uses, just limited in what they can be used for. That doesn't warrant a complete reworking of them though. Not over avatars.

[Malamasala]

Elemental spirits to SMN DO NOT mean the same thing as Automaton mean to PUP, nor are they as important to SMN. If emphasis is put on using elemental spirits instead of getting a much needed adjustments to avatar blood pacts, I'm gonna completely give it up.

Yes they do. Lets say you went into abyssea and want to get azure. Are you going to use Heavenly Strike to build azure? No, because even though it works as elemental damage, it does not serve the same purpose as a BLM puppet. What does serve as the same purpose is elemental spirits.

And what really does blood pacts need that you think the game will be unplayable without? More damage? Because I can't think of anything else we lack on BP:Rage. And sitting there saying "The game is better if I do 900 than 800 damage, but completely trash if I can heal for 700 instead of 400."

Honestly, I see other SMNs rant on and on about "Need better avatars!" and I just don't see the need. And it is a no brainer that at 99 some new DD pacts will arrive, and if your requested update is 100% guaranteed to happen regardless of what happens to spirits, why are you complaining? Do you honestly think fixed spirits would mean all 19 jobs get merit category 3, except SMN which they had no time to add it for?

If I'm main healing on SMN (which I don't anymore), I'd much rather use carbuncle with avatar favor enabled and be forced to rely on the randomness light spirits. Or... you know.... just switch to WHM.

But you know what. If you think Blood Pacts are so bad now, why do you not change job to something that you do not think perform badly? Like WAR?

Or do we only play the job swap arguments against spirits, while we can't do them against your desired updates?

What am gonna do is share with you a pic of who it is you remind me of mellowy.

I'm terribly offended. I'm more like Rodney in SG Atlantis. Brilliant and whining. Selfish? Well of course, you can't be a genius unless you are selfish. Arrogance also helps. All the traits of a master mind. (Evil or good)

If they did better damage, you'd use them over the avatars. If they buffed/debuffed better, you'd use them over the avatars. The avatars are supposed to be powerful beings. Why would a generic elemental spirit ever be stronger?

Now the tricky part. What if spirits did better DoT, but worse spike damage. If they did better debuffs, but worse buffs? Suddenly you have the choice between DoT + debuffs or Spike + buffs. Two ways to play. That is like Light arts and Dark arts for SCH.

Or perhaps you want to claim that SCH is a failure and people only use one of the arts because it is better than the other art? Like all SCH use dark only, because light arts is useless?

If all you think SMN is about is damage, then it is easy to think spirits would steal the thunder. But if you view SMN as a jack of all trades with physical, magical, spike, DoT, debuffs and buffs, you'd see the opportunities with spirits.

That doesn't warrant a complete reworking of them though. Not over avatars.

It is not rework though, it is reusing PUP code. Saying it is like reworking them, is like saying VW2 is a rework of VW1, because it is completely different monsters and completely different drops.

Heck, if SE had any programming sense to begin with, the fellowship NPC, automaton and spirit would have used the same AI module and these changes would have effected them all three. Spaghetti coding is currently the reason why they haven't fixed Spirits.

If only they could hire a real programmer at Square Enix. It seems like they have nobody left.

[Soranika]

LOL there's no possible way I can justify humoring myself to respond anymore.

Elemental spirits =/= Automatons, that's it. End of story. Please move on now.