Treasure Hunter Testing

[Granny]

so where are the results of the test you are trying to convince us of... This is nuts, gonna tell us they solved a myth but show no results yet go to the trouble of posting...

To top it all off everyone would be a million times more interested in testing between TH2 and TH3+ in the first place, AND actually SEEING the RESULTS, HINT HINT, lols.

[Agetos]

TH10 is so ordinary. Real thieves will turn the TH up to 11.

truly rofl at that link

[Vold]

What we're dying to know is just how much TH10 wins out over TH2. I just don't even know what the JP are doing to be fussing over TH9 vs 10. Of all things TH, it's TH9 vs TH10.

All this testing and fooling around is all fun and games but at the end of the day it will never provide cold hard 100% facts no matter how high that kill count gets because numbers will always be skewed by some factor that can't be avoided without 24/7 testing by the same person. Therefore I will ask the devs the following question if reps will be so kind as to pass it along:

Who is your daddy, and what does he do?

Can you explain to us why we should shoot for max TH effectiveness without using the response "because the more/higher you have the better" ?

It won't kill anyone for us to know the maths behind it. Some might pout over possibly weak increases per tier but whatev. I think it's pretty safe to say that the player base is always going to do everything they can to up drop chances in the standard LS alliance gig and that means bringing THFs, period. It'd just be darn handy to know for the solo/duo/low man teams out there that are less than serious business. If I can sacrifice my THF to take my war/thf instead for sake of kill speed and know for a fact that it's not totally crippling my drop rates that would be the best thing since pizza on a stick. Not that I'd do it often but if the situation was dire enough I could be convinced to go with the ancient TH2 trait.

I don't know. Shrug. It's been about a decade. I'm ready for some of those "nono" questions to finally be answered after all these years. See what's right and wrong. Laugh it up about fail theories over the years. Etc. Granted, TH procs are fairly new but TH is TH.

[Babekeke]

Subbed you only get TH2, not TH3. If you say that TH3 is useful, you just gave yourself a reason to bring a THF.

Unless you have A TH aug Tarutaru Sash, of course. Or you're in abyssea using TH atma. Or you have treasure hound in Quon present zones.

/THF users will no doubt go out of their way to get a taru sash, so /THF = TH3/4

_____________________________________________________________________________

(Edit so as not to require a second post)

we learn from this:
A) treasure hunter from gear is the same as treasure hunter from procs.

Correct.

B) treasure hunter from gear / procs. is so weak that it takes 1000 + kills to see a measurable increase from it.

Great job testing guys, now make them fix it.

Edit: I guess if you plan on killing the same NM 1000+ times, then you will see the benefit of bringing a Thief. That means that the reason Treasure Hunter is considered SOOOOOO powerful is: we will be Killing the same Notorious Monster 1,000,000,000 Times. Thanks for that glimpse into the future of FFXI.

All I can say to this is OMFG, are you serious?
If they reported back and said:

we killed 1 mob with TH9 and 1 mob with TH10, and we got more scales on the TH10 kill

we'd have sent them back with their tails between their legs. Instead, they produce a fair sample size, and idiots like you just see it as NEEDING 1000 kills to see a difference.

The trouble with increasing a chance, is that it's still a chance. If you increase TH to have a 95% drop rate and kill a mob once, you could still not get the drop then next time kill it with 5% chance of drop and it drops.

I hope you're glad I took out the time to respond to your trolling

[Monchat]

To be fair, you aren't going to go above TH7 on trash mobs (like in Dynamis), and you'll only get there quasi-regularly if you use Thief's Knife (which slows down your kills and farming). Swapping out TK drops you to TH5/6, which has never been shown to be significantly different from TH2. So yes, people are totally justified saying THF=/THF in a lot of situations.

Honnestly I wouldn't go as far as claim THF=/THF. TH6 is clearly superior to TH2 when farming common drop items ( typically your favorite abyssea pop item), not that it matters a lot since AH is flooded, but anyway. In dynamis I get almost the same amunt of coins each times ( same camps, same set up), and the two times I forgot to change my mule job to THF we got -20% coins ( 200 instead of 250); not a lot of difference indeed. I have many reason to bring THF over /THF, but camate confirms that THF is nothing more than a TH robot. Give me a reason to come back to event as THF main, I used to loveTHF! Or at least reasons to equip my THF mule with something else than Thief knife, armlets, boots, a boomerang and lv 90, and try to meree.

The otherday I was killing tahrongi T3 VNM for the epeen evasion legs. Blu proced right away, could have killed it in 5 minutes, but since I lost claim on the 2 previous ones, I decided to proc TH10 on it with my gimp mule ( again, only TK, AA, feet, range lol) through SA and TA. Took literally 30 minute to get TH9 ( I know since protect wor off at TH9 msg). The next group wanting to pop it was so mad, and I understand. I have many examples with NQ behemoths, taking 30mn to proc TH10 when there is another group( usually 5 THF 1 RDM) waiting to pop.

TH 9 or 10 is something they invented to piss of the player. Th8 is relatively fast to get ( 2- 3 SA and TAs) , but im not really sure if its much better than TH6, and beyond that is rediculously long for such a small improvement.

[Arcon]

The data for this model was taken from before the level cap raise, though, so there's the potential that the third TH trait thf natively gets could be another +50%, with each TH+1 from gear or procs being +10%. That would make TH7 +190% instead of +150%, and would give 45% more drops than a /thf.

Not sure if you've been following this thread (and the other one), but we already had a fairly large sample for TH0 and TH2 from before the update, which seem to be indicating something else: re-rolls on each tier. And recent testing, while smaller in scale, seems to coincide with that model for TH1 and TH2 only... after that it surprisingly changes style and goes on differently.

However, I believe there's not any kind of static increase (percentual or otherwise), because that would mean they would either have to cap the effect of TH, or the level of TH or the overall drop rate, none of which I believe is true, otherwise you could reach 100% easily on some drops, which I believe isn't possible with any amount of TH, for several reasons.

[Atomic_Skull]

So it would have to be something like 200 KS99 runs, all with TH10, then another 200 KS99 runs.

TH has never affected armory crates.

hmm i could have sweared the whole issue on this thread was on THII vs THIII traits, as in, why do they work so differently? they really shouldn't.

Look at the job trait list, It's actually a second Treasure Hunter II not Treasure Hunter III.

[Byrth]

In order to see an effect in 500 kills that's significant at the 95% confidence level, the change would have needed to be about 3~5%.

[Arcon]

TH has never affected armory crates.

My bad, I meant spawned kings fights.

[Motenten]

@Arcon:

I have sort of been following it. Mainly only noted that there's different treasure pools for different sets of golems in sky.. >.>

The problem is that all evidence for the multi-roll theory seems circumstantial. It works in some cases, but not in others.

Here's some TH data I have from a few years ago:

Savanna Dhalmel (Killed 1002 times with TH 0)
       11 dhalmel hide                 [Max #: 2]  [Items/Kill:  0.011]  [Drop Rate:   1.00 %]  [% of Drops:   4.40 %]
       22 giant femur                  [Max #: 1]  [Items/Kill:  0.022]  [Drop Rate:   2.20 %]  [% of Drops:   8.80 %]
      100 slice of dhalmel meat        [Max #: 2]  [Items/Kill:  0.100]  [Drop Rate:   8.98 %]  [% of Drops:  40.00 %]
        3 sprig of papaka grass        [Max #: 1]  [Items/Kill:  0.003]  [Drop Rate:   0.30 %]  [% of Drops:   1.20 %]
      114 tuft of dhalmel hair         [Max #: 1]  [Items/Kill:  0.114]  [Drop Rate:  11.38 %]  [% of Drops:  45.60 %]

Savanna Dhalmel (Killed 1000 times with TH 1)
       19 dhalmel hide                 [Max #: 3]  [Items/Kill:  0.019]  [Drop Rate:   1.70 %]  [% of Drops:   3.39 %]
       46 giant femur                  [Max #: 1]  [Items/Kill:  0.046]  [Drop Rate:   4.60 %]  [% of Drops:   8.20 %]
      350 slice of dhalmel meat        [Max #: 2]  [Items/Kill:  0.350]  [Drop Rate:  27.00 %]  [% of Drops:  62.39 %]
        6 sprig of papaka grass        [Max #: 1]  [Items/Kill:  0.006]  [Drop Rate:   0.60 %]  [% of Drops:   1.07 %]
      140 tuft of dhalmel hair         [Max #: 1]  [Items/Kill:  0.140]  [Drop Rate:  14.00 %]  [% of Drops:  24.96 %]

Savanna Dhalmel (Killed 200 times with TH 2)
        7 dhalmel hide                 [Max #: 2]  [Items/Kill:  0.035]  [Drop Rate:   2.50 %]  [% of Drops:   4.52 %]
       13 giant femur                  [Max #: 1]  [Items/Kill:  0.065]  [Drop Rate:   6.50 %]  [% of Drops:   8.39 %]
       96 slice of dhalmel meat        [Max #: 2]  [Items/Kill:  0.480]  [Drop Rate:  37.50 %]  [% of Drops:  61.94 %]
        1 sprig of papaka grass        [Max #: 1]  [Items/Kill:  0.005]  [Drop Rate:   0.50 %]  [% of Drops:   0.65 %]
       38 tuft of dhalmel hair         [Max #: 1]  [Items/Kill:  0.190]  [Drop Rate:  19.00 %]  [% of Drops:  24.52 %]

(I apparently got distracted from the TH2 and higher testing; should go back and finish that)

From the thread, there was mention of another test on dhalmel drop rates:

It only works well if you completely disregard cases where it doesn't work. Dhalmel Meat, which can double drop, dropped at 100/1000 for TH0 and 358/700 for TH2. ... Only 100 Dhalmel Meat were obtained during that set, so the prediction deviates heavily from what was observed.

Drop groupings (not shown) allow easy verification of drop distributions. For mine:

TH0 gave 10 2x drops; the remaining 80 meats would be singles, with 50 drops in each slot (5% drop rate). However that introduces an extra margin of error, so it would be better to consider it as 100 drops out of 2004 'attempts' (kills*slots), with the assumption that drops for each slot are independant. This gives a CI interval of 4.12%-6.04%.

TH1 gave 80 2x drops, leaving 190 single drops, and 175 drops in each slot (17.5%). Getting CI on 350 drops out of 2000 (kills*slots) we get a CI range of 15.90%-19.23%.

TH2 gave 21 2x drops, leaving 54 single drops, and 48 drops in each slot (24%). CI interval is 20.07%-28.43%.


If we assume TH1 was one reroll, the range of the base drop rate is 8.29%-10.13%, significantly out of the range of the TH0 data.

If we assume TH2 was two rerolls, the range of the base drop rate is 7.20%-10.55%, on par with the result from the TH1 data, but still out of range of the TH0 value. They both converge on a 9% base drop rate.

Which, coincidentally, is the "drop rate" of the TH0 data - the number of kills for which at least one of that item dropped. Possibly an indication that the drop rate for the second slot item is gimped under TH0? EG: 9% base drop rate for slot 1, but only ~1% for slot 2; slot 2 drop rate raised to match slot 1 if TH1 or higher is present. A thought to file away for later.


Dhalmel hair:
9.55%-13.5% @TH0
11.98%-16.29% @TH1 >> 6.18%-8.51%
14.14%-25.03% @TH2 >> 4.95%-9.16%

In no case does the back-calculated drop rate based on multiple rolls fall within the CI of the baseline. There's no chance of multiple drops interfering in this set, either.